The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

The same as everyone else - it gives them a fairer chance at winning games, therefore ultimately, trophies.
They would also be hamgstrung by population and that could be addressed on its own merits. But nobody ever claimed that you get one change to fix every ill in the game. Those issues could be addressed with appropriate changes.
However, it cannot be denied that statistically both counties would have a better chance with dublin spilt, or not taking part, as some here have intimated they would do, if asked to compete fairly.

Where a “fairer chance” remains the sum of sweet **** all. As you well realize the only counties that may benefit are realistically Kerry and mayo with possibly Tyrone or donegal In the mix

But of course it’s all about the good of the game


Tell you what I’ve a better suggestion. Take the Games development funding, allocate it directly from Croke park with a spv established to administer it. Split it perfectly per head of population for anyone under say 25 so that everyone gets allocated their share. There you go central funding solves that.

Now pool 40% of everyone’s sponsorship and fundraising (including fundraising from corporate donors and millionaires) redistribute that on a weighted basis so that the weakest counties get by some margin the most.

Then audit the **** out of every county board and sanction those who can’t account for their funds up to and including expulsion from the championship.

How does that sound for equitable? No worries about financial doping, no sneaky corporate backhanders no money just testing in accounts.

Then you can look at getting rid of the provincials and have a seeded open championship. Complete that and all the current or historic financial and administrative advantages for all teams will disappear. Then we can start to look at how the game is faring.

salmocab wrote: »

You want me to give you specifics on a hypothetical situation? I could say any sponsor and in my hypothetical world I’d be right and you could claim in your hypothetical world that I’m wrong. You can surely see how ludicrous this is.

Well you claimed sponsorship would pull out in this scenario. Im just asking which ones? The ones sponsoring individual teams is it? Bar dublins sponsors, unlikely. The overal competition sponsors? Highly unlikely, and if they did they would just be replaced. So which sponsors, outside of the dublin team sponsors, who may just choose to go with someone else, would be leaving in this scenario? Obviously you feel a certain type of sponsor would, otherwise you wouldnt be saying it, right? Should be fairly straightforward to tell us which ones you feel would leave, and why - hypothetical or not. Ive just explained the opposite in the above.

tritium wrote: »

Where a “fairer chance” remains the sum of sweet **** all. As you well realize the only counties that may benefit are realistically Kerry and mayo with possibly Tyrone or donegal In the mix

But of course it’s all about the good of the game


Tell you what I’ve a better suggestion. Take the Games development funding, allocate it directly from Croke park with a spv established to administer it. Split it perfectly per head of population for anyone under say 25 so that everyone gets allocated their share. There you go central funding solves that.

Now pool 40% of everyone’s sponsorship and fundraising (including fundraising from corporate donors and millionaires) redistribute that on a weighted basis so that the weakest counties get by some margin the most.

Then audit the **** out of every county board and sanction those who can’t account for their funds up to and including expulsion from the championship.

How does that sound for equitable? No worries about financial doping, no sneaky corporate backhanders no money just testing in accounts.

Then you can look at getting rid of the provincials and have a seeded open championship. Complete that and all the current or historic financial and administrative advantages for all teams will disappear. Then we can start to look at how the game is faring.

Plenty of what you say is good and it would improve the game.
You havent addressed the massive issue of dublins population advantages though, so im assuming this is all to be done after splitting dublin. Fair play, im all for it

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Plenty of what you say is good and it would improve the game.
You havent addressed the massive issue of dublins population advantages though, so im assuming this is all to be done after splitting dublin. Fair play, im all for it

Again Dublin will not be split , but dream away :rolleyes:

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

That isnt true. I have explained why I think each type of sponsorship would or wouldnt be affected. You just keep repeating that it will. Have you no logic behind your view or is it just some idea taken ay random? Thar is what it seems to be.
You reference sponsors being upset - which type of sponsors? Kerry group for example? Would they pull the plug do you believe in that scenario? If your response is we cant know for sure, then how fan you make any assertion about any sponsor? You cant have it every way. Either you dont know what sponsors might do, or you can say they would/wouldnt pull out and here is why you believe it. Make your mind up which tou believe, it cant be both.

You haven’t explained anything, my assertion most certainly is we can’t know for sure. I’m pretty sure as I’ve said that sponsors wouldn’t be at all happy about losing the biggest draw in the competition they pay to be associated with. You seem happy to think they wouldn’t mind. Your arguing that you know what sponsors would do but don’t accept it when I say what I think they would do. Like all the other arguments on here people have their opinions and think that anyone that doesn’t agree with them should be shouted down. I’m happy for you to think what you want it’s all unprovable and no one can win. The proof could only be in the pudding and as we’ll never get to see the pudding let alone taste it then we’ll never know the truth. The difference between us though is that I’m aware that neither of us know what would happen.

gaffer91 wrote: »

No we just need to split Dublin. Dublin are the only team with such an alarming combination of unfair advantages . Again, these advantages include excessive funding from the GAA and their sponsors compared to other counties, population, home pitch advantage and others.

Splitting Dublin hands the next five All-Irelands to Kerry, because the two teams are so far ahead of the others in terms of their winning culture. Kerry have been excellent at bringing through the top underage players and working with them to get them into the senior side - see how successful the minor team has been. Yes, it has been at the expense of wider juvenile participation, but it has ensured that their senior team is the clear second-best in the country. Dublin have focussed more broadly on mass juvenile participation which brings the risk that you won't get youngsters coming through, especially if you don't have a good senior set-up. It is a much better approach than Kerry's for wider health and sports participation issues, but not as clear-cut for senior success.

If you truly want equal competition, then you must split the most successful county, as well as Dublin, and you must amalgamate as well.

blanch152 wrote: »

Splitting Dublin hands the next five All-Irelands to Kerry, because the two teams are so far ahead of the others in terms of their winning culture. Kerry have been excellent at bringing through the top underage players and working with them to get them into the senior side - see how successful the minor team has been. Yes, it has been at the expense of wider juvenile participation, but it has ensured that their senior team is the clear second-best in the country. Dublin have focussed more broadly on mass juvenile participation which brings the risk that you won't get youngsters coming through, especially if you don't have a good senior set-up. It is a much better approach than Kerry's for wider health and sports participation issues, but not as clear-cut for senior success.

If you truly want equal competition, then you must split the most successful county, as well as Dublin, and you must amalgamate as well.

Not at all. Your argument is absolute nonsense, once again. You keep trying to draw some kind of equivalence between the Dublin and Kerry set-ups- there is none. Dublin, and Dublin alone, are uniquely advantaged in the current environment. Dublin, and Dublin alone, should be split.

Kerry's strategy is not "at the expense of wider juvenile participation". Nor is Dublin's about focusing on mass juvenile participation. You keep parroting this nonsense but that doesn't make it true.

Dublin's strategy is about financial doping, insurmountable population advantage and playing at home, among others. There is no "risk that you won't get youngsters coming through" from Dublin spending GD money on GDOs (as intended). Dublin have more than enough from their financial backers such as AIG and the government for this GD funding not to make a meaningful dent on their other spending on county teams. This is what has been repeatedly explained about the gross overfunding of Dublin via GD- It reduces the opportunity cost of other expenditures. And we've also shown how it results in more titles as these expertly trained young players then age and enhance the game within the county and also for the inter-county team. This funding was exclusively available to Dublin.

No other county can match either Dublin's financial firepower, or their population when each one is taken alone. When you take them together, along with their other advantages, you realise that there is no hope of the inter- county game making a meaningful recovery. So Dublin need to split to disperse these unfair advantages, which will make things fairer and more viable for all counties.

Once again, it's not just the success that's important, it's the inputs into in. A team being successful doesn't necessarily mean they are unfairly advantaged. A team not being successful doesn't necessarily mean they AREN'T being unfairly advantaged (for instance, Dublin were always unfairly advantaged even before this decade's dominance via their population advantage and playing at home). In Dublin's case, their success is built off a unique combination of unfair advantages that make their victories farcical. This is not the case for Kerry, or anyone else. If Dublin were winning fairly I'd be the first man to congratulate them. Sadly, that isn't the case, and they alone will need to be split or the game will die.

gaffer91 wrote: »

You realise much of the arguments you are making there are identical or along the same path of what I and others are arguing? There is an implicit recognition within your argument that Dublin are advantaged because most of the things you suggest changing are currently skewed to favour Dublin.

It should be 100% of sponsorship pooled. And funding will have to factor in long term averages- for instance Dublin will have be relatively underfunded for decades to make up for the overfunding in recent years. And of course, they are such a unique statistical outlier in terms of funding that they would have to be split on these grounds alone.

Your fairly reasonable suggestions would be too little, too late by this stage unfortunately I suspect however. The residual impacts of Dublin's financial doping will be felt for years to come now and so the single best solution would be a four way split of the county.

it shouldn't at all be 100% of sponsorship pooled. Sponsors fund teams for exposure and a tie in for their brand. They dont want stump up cash if it is going countrywide and not on what they're spending it on.

And underfunding Dublin doesnt help the GAA. If you split Dublin there would have to be many new costs so funding would actually have to increase to run these extra set ups so more money would be spent on the capital so what does that achieve and what does that actually do to help other counties?

salmocab wrote: »

You haven’t explained anything, my assertion most certainly is we can’t know for sure. I’m pretty sure as I’ve said that sponsors wouldn’t be at all happy about losing the biggest draw in the competition they pay to be associated with. You seem happy to think they wouldn’t mind. Your arguing that you know what sponsors would do but don’t accept it when I say what I think they would do. Like all the other arguments on here people have their opinions and think that anyone that doesn’t agree with them should be shouted down. I’m happy for you to think what you want it’s all unprovable and no one can win. The proof could only be in the pudding and as we’ll never get to see the pudding let alone taste it then we’ll never know the truth. The difference between us though is that I’m aware that neither of us know what would happen.

Which sponsors though?
And how would the sponsors react to the other option?
If the proof can only be in the pudding, then what are you saying they wouldnt be happy with dublin being out of it for? Again, talking out both sides of your mouth there.

blanch152 wrote: »

Splitting Dublin hands the next five All-Irelands to Kerry.

If you truly want equal competition, then you must split the most successful county, as well as Dublin, and you must amalgamate as well.

Re the first point. If kerry are the best team in the country with dublin deservingly spilt, then best of luck to them. It would actually be a far superior 5 in a row than dublins were they to do it. Why would you have an issue with the most deserving team winning the thing?

Re the second point. If kerry can win the thing off equal footing to other counties, then they shouldnt be split, they should be copied. You are simply trying to pull the model of what we should aim to be, down with you, just because your own county deserves to be split. That is a seriously jealous mentality. Why not put these famous structures to the test and go and match kerry from an equal footing, instead of trying to ruin them out of spite.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

it shouldn't at all be 100% of sponsorship pooled. Sponsors fund teams for exposure and a tie in for their brand. They dont want stump up cash if it is going countrywide and not on what they're spending it on.

And underfunding Dublin doesnt help the GAA. If you split Dublin there would have to be many new costs so funding would actually have to increase to run these extra set ups so more money would be spent on the capital so what does that achieve and what does that actually do to help other counties?

Im pretty sure they dont give a toss where the money goes once their name is on the jersey.

I agree that underfunding dublin is the wrong move. However, not doing so ruins the county game. Therefore the correct move is to fund them fairly and make 2 teams at inter county.
Re extra costs, they would get funded the same as every other team. It is just basically adding another high level team. I dont think anyone is going to have an issue with that. The extra games played by 2 dublin teams should cover that cost anyway.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Im pretty sure they dont give a toss where the money goes once their name is on the jersey.

I agree that underfunding dublin is the wrong move. However, not doing so ruins the county game. Therefore the correct move is to fund them fairly and make 2 teams at inter county.
Re extra costs, they would get funded the same as every other team. It is just basically adding another high level team. I dont think anyone is going to have an issue with that. The extra games played by 2 dublin teams should cover that cost anyway.

you are assuming people will want to support the only county in the country being split because they have been successful? If Dublin weren't winning there wouldnt be calls for them to be split.

Companies want associate with successful brands. It's a lot more than just being on the Jersey. Dublin being split fundamentally changed the inter county game forever and movement between two how do you address that as it is far from same with move anywhere else
And where do you find the extra income for this extra team? I'd it only at senior inter county level or do you propose this change for all levels below as just proposing it at senior inter county level is about pettiness and jealousy only.