Bus lane cameras to be introduced in 2020

DumbBrunette · 26-12-2019 9:54am #1

https://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-to-get-cameras-installed-in-bus-cycle-lanes-4891669-Dec2019/?utm_source=shortlink

Finally!! Hopefully vested interests won't get in the way.

Payton · 26-12-2019 9:59am

Pity it's only DCC and the rest of the council's don't do this.
There are plenty of area's where I live in South Dublin and it's the norm to drive in the bus lane and hard shoulder. Put a camera watching the red light jumpers and we'll be awash with money.

markpb · 26-12-2019 2:33pm

It’s fantastic that DCC are tackling this problem but there are so many stumbling blocks that’s it’s hard to see it going anywhere.

The existing red light cameras installed by TII/NTA on the Red Luas line have been stuck in reporting mode for several years with no ambition to revert to issuing fines.

The DPC recently instructed AGS to disable static ANPR because of privacy concerns. That could definitely be fixed by a change in procedure or legislation but no one seems to be volunteering to do that.

The minister of transport has recently announced in the Dail that he has no intention of supporting legislation that would allow the NTA to install bus lane enforcement cameras. He wants to leave that with AGS because they’re doing such a sterling job right now.

DCC indicated in the article that they have no funding for a full rollout of a system like this. That’s obviously lean on AGS to pay for it but they have their own budgetary problems so that seems unlikely.

Any system which relies on the government to draft legislation and provide funding to support a system that will be widely criticised as punishing the poor motorist isn’t going to be top of any government, especially one that could be facing into an election in the next year.

SauNewb · 26-12-2019 2:41pm

There is a line in the article - "Cameras are currently used to detect drivers who are breaking the speed limit and used as evidence to prosecute drivers."

Is this true, or is it only speed camera vans that catch people?

AlekSmart · 26-12-2019 3:08pm

markpb wrote: »

It’s fantastic that DCC are tackling this problem but there are so many stumbling blocks that’s it’s hard to see it going anywhere.

The existing red light cameras installed by TII/NTA on the Red Luas line have been stuck in reporting mode for several years with no ambition to revert to issuing fines.

The DPC recently instructed AGS to disable static ANPR because of privacy concerns. That could definitely be fixed by a change in procedure or legislation but no one seems to be volunteering to do that.

The minister of transport has recently announced in the Dail that he has no intention of supporting legislation that would allow the NTA to install bus lane enforcement cameras. He wants to leave that with AGS because they’re doing such a sterling job right now.

DCC indicated in the article that they have no funding for a full rollout of a system like this. That’s obviously lean on AGS to pay for it but they have their own budgetary problems so that seems unlikely.

Any system which relies on the government to draft legislation and provide funding to support a system that will be widely criticised as punishing the poor motorist isn’t going to be top of any government, especially one that could be facing into an election in the next year.

SO many agencies....SO little accountability or progress....It's how we do it !!!

Breezer · 26-12-2019 8:18pm

markpb wrote: »

It’s fantastic that DCC are tackling this problem but there are so many stumbling blocks that’s it’s hard to see it going anywhere.

The existing red light cameras installed by TII/NTA on the Red Luas line have been stuck in reporting mode for several years with no ambition to revert to issuing fines.

The DPC recently instructed AGS to disable static ANPR because of privacy concerns. That could definitely be fixed by a change in procedure or legislation but no one seems to be volunteering to do that.

The minister of transport has recently announced in the Dail that he has no intention of supporting legislation that would allow the NTA to install bus lane enforcement cameras. He wants to leave that with AGS because they’re doing such a sterling job right now.

DCC indicated in the article that they have no funding for a full rollout of a system like this. That’s obviously lean on AGS to pay for it but they have their own budgetary problems so that seems unlikely.

Any system which relies on the government to draft legislation and provide funding to support a system that will be widely criticised as punishing the poor motorist isn’t going to be top of any government, especially one that could be facing into an election in the next year.

We are definitely facing an election in the next couple of months. The Minister For Transport will be gone and we’ll have a new government that in all likelihood will involve the Green Party in some form. I have hope.

magicbastarder · 26-12-2019 10:59pm

Breezer wrote: »

The Minister For Transport will be gone

now we hear he is quietly pleased with pre-election polling figures in his Dublin Rathdown constituency

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/miriam-lord-the-dara-murphy-fierce-big-job-in-europe-award-goes-to-1.4123774

average_runner · 26-12-2019 11:01pm

Breezer wrote: »

We are definitely facing an election in the next couple of months. The Minister For Transport will be gone and we’ll have a new government that in all likelihood will involve the Green Party in some form. I have hope.

Great more taxes

Atlantic Dawn · 26-12-2019 11:06pm

Breezer wrote: »

We are definitely facing an election in the next couple of months. The Minister For Transport will be gone and we’ll have a new government that in all likelihood will involve the Green Party in some form. I have hope.

Hopefully not, they have done so much damage to the environment and people's health since they were last in..promotion of diesel cars, wood burning stoves etc etc.

StreetLight · 26-12-2019 11:26pm

Breezer wrote: »

We are definitely facing an election in the next couple of months. The Minister For Transport will be gone and we’ll have a new government that in all likelihood will involve the Green Party in some form. I have hope.

The only thing consistent about the Greens is their ability to foist more taxes on working people.

LeinsterDub · 26-12-2019 11:47pm

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Hopefully not, they have done so much damage to the environment and people's health since they were last in..promotion of diesel cars, wood burning stoves etc etc.

I love how minority parties are hung out for events decades ago. Yet the major parties are forgiven by the vast majority of the electorate after two elections max.

Breezer · 26-12-2019 11:59pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/miriam-lord-the-dara-murphy-fierce-big-job-in-europe-award-goes-to-1.4123774

Re-election doesn’t mean reappointment as Minister for Transport

Breezer · 27-12-2019 12:01am

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Hopefully not, they have done so much damage to the environment and people's health since they were last in..promotion of diesel cars, wood burning stoves etc etc.

I’m not here to evangelise for them or turn this into an election campaign thread for anyone in particular. I’ve voted for a different party at nearly every election. Which politician or grouping do you see giving more priority to sustainable transport, out of interest? We can be cynical about politics or agencies all we want, but unless you’re advocating revolution, it’s best to vote for those you feel are most likely to advance the issues you care about.

Zebra3 · 27-12-2019 12:06am

Ross may be returned as a TD (he may not even stand again), but he's highly unlikely to be the minister over transport in the next government.

Kaisr Sose · 27-12-2019 12:15am

Great to learn of cameras monitoring bus lanes during hours of operation but who is monitoring? They now have bye laws to restrict Air BnB let's but nobody to monitor compliance.

The DPC ruling on static ANPR defies logic. You have no right to privacy in public. As long as the ANPR data is stored and controlled within strict guidelines, what is the DPC issue in Ireland that does not exist elsewhere in Europe? Or perhaps this is the DPC saying I don't trust the data will be stored in compliance? Or is this the National ID card debate in another form?

Then the lack of red light policing technologies...? When you read about all the money wasted on stupid things, it defies all logic that technology that would generate revenue from those that ignore red lights continues to be shelved? The tech is getting on for 20yrs old at this stage?

What comes first safety on the road or a right to privacy or other right to do what you please with no fear of getting caught? It just can't continue like this

LeinsterDub · 27-12-2019 12:29am

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Great to learn of cameras monitoring bus lanes during hours of operation but who is monitoring? They now have bye laws to restrict Air BnB let's but nobody to monitor compliance.

The DPC ruling on static ANPR defies logic. You have no right to privacy in public. As long as the ANPR data is stored and controlled within strict guidelines, what is the DPC issue in Ireland that does not exist elsewhere in Europe? Or perhaps this is the DPC saying I don't trust the data will be stored in compliance? Or is this the National ID card debate in another form?

Then the lack of red light policing technologies...? When you read about all the money wasted on stupid things, it defies all logic that technology that would generate revenue from those that ignore red lights continues to be shelved? The tech is getting on for 20yrs old at this stage?

What comes first safety on the road or a right to privacy or other right to do what you please with no fear of getting caught? It just can't continue like this

There are a lot of departments in Ireland who are using GDPR as an easy excuse. The GDPR argument is nonsense here they have them in Belfast.

Peregrine · 27-12-2019 1:20am

This is interesting. I still think Ross or a competent minister that replaces him should give the NTA power to enforce them. Gardaí have no interest in enforcing minor traffic offences or even in bringing in technology to do it.

Ross and the Guards must be the only people left in the country now who think the current level of enforcement is satisfactory.

average_runner · 27-12-2019 8:38am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I love how minority parties are hung out for events decades ago. Yet the major parties are forgiven by the vast majority of the electorate after two elections max.

If I remember right, FF got hung after that election. Not been in power since

27-12-2019 8:40am

The greens get off lighter than anyone after all that mess. If they get in this time around then we might as well just empty the pockets straight away because they’re nothing short of thieves.

trellheim · 27-12-2019 12:18pm

Has anyone a link to the ANPR ruling ? - not a news article

dowlingm · 27-12-2019 3:08pm

Interesting to note the dates in these news articles; how long the cops and their political masters have been faffing around with ANPR knowing that a fit for purpose data protection regime is an issue and still choosing not to make that a reality

2006 https://www.digitalrights.ie/minister-for-justice-ducks-questions-on-number-plate-surveillance-scheme/

2010 https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/icrime/100000-licence-plates-scanned-each-day-116920.html

LeinsterDub · 28-12-2019 10:16am

average_runner wrote: »

If I remember right, FF got hung after that election. Not been in power since

FF who crashed the economy, multiple times are currently sitting top or with in the margin of top of the polls which is my point. The large parties are forgiven after 1 maybe 2 elections, the smaller ones are drawn over the coals forever

LeinsterDub · 28-12-2019 10:17am

trellheim wrote: »

Has anyone a link to the ANPR ruling ? - not a news article

There is no issue with GDPR it's a fiction. Belfast has these cameras without any problem

trellheim · 28-12-2019 4:37pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

There is no issue with GDPR it's a fiction. Belfast has these cameras without any problem

Different Data protection commissioner to be fair, Helen Dixon has no remit in the UK

Breezer · 28-12-2019 6:32pm

trellheim wrote: »

Different Data protection commissioner to be fair, Helen Dixon has no remit in the UK

But GDPR is EU law. Surely the provisions applying here are the same as those that apply in the UK, until Brexit happens at least?

Kaisr Sose · 29-12-2019 12:16am

Breezer wrote: »

But GDPR is EU law. Surely the provisions applying here are the same as those that apply in the UK, until Brexit happens at least?

Using GDPR as a reason no to do something (in this case not rolling out static ANPR cameras) is the administrative equivalent of a No Comment Garda interview. They are all over Continental Europe as is GDPR, with no issues on privacy when driving a vehicle on a public road. Nor should there be.

Spanish Eyes · 29-12-2019 12:26am

We are on camera every day in public places. I fail to see what the issue is with ANPR in a public place either.

But DPC must justify its existence I suppose. But public places are surely exempt.

salmocab · 29-12-2019 12:34am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I love how minority parties are hung out for events decades ago. Yet the major parties are forgiven by the vast majority of the electorate after two elections max.

To be fair Eamon Ryan pushed Diesel engines on us and only recently when asked about it said the motor industry told him it was best. That’s the sort of politician we can do without.

Carawaystick · 29-12-2019 2:09am

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

The DPC ruling on static ANPR defies logic. You have no right to privacy in public. As long as the ANPR data is stored and controlled within strict guidelines, what is the DPC issue in Ireland that does not exist elsewhere in Europe? Or perhaps this is the DPC saying I don't trust the data will be stored in compliance? Or is this the National ID card debate in another form?

Then the lack of red light policing technologies...? When you read about all the money wasted on stupid things, it defies all logic that technology that would generate revenue from those that ignore red lights continues to be shelved? The tech is getting on for 20yrs old at this stage?

What comes first safety on the road or a right to privacy or other right to do what you please with no fear of getting caught? It just can't continue like this

everybody has a right to their personal data being processed fairly.
its an EU fundamental right like free speech or the right to information on the environment. it can be restricted, if the processors comply with the laws to restrict it within the law.
But the cops and the state cant be bothered to implement the "strict guidelines" to restrict the processing of personal data within the law., so aren't allowed.
I mean they only had 3 years to figure this out....

Charles Babbage · 29-12-2019 2:20am

trellheim wrote: »

Different Data protection commissioner to be fair, Helen Dixon has no remit in the UK

People should not be beating the DPC, they should be beating the lazy government that does not bring in regulations allowing the use of such data, specifying the conditions of that use and who can see it and so on.

As for not wishing to punish the motorist, they should simply state that fines etc remain the same and that the measure is not to catch more motorists but to free up AGS for hunting paedophiles or some other thing.

But such a measure for bus lanes would also require measures to stop empty taxis, ministerial cars etc using them to ensure public acceptance.

trellheim · 29-12-2019 3:05pm

Breezer wrote: »

But GDPR is EU law. Surely the provisions applying here are the same as those that apply in the UK, until Brexit happens at least?

It certainly is, but as mentioned above, the DPC apparently has issued a directive or something.

I've read the DPC website and can find no mention of it recently, but perhaps am looking in the wrong place. I want to see what exactly is the issue before jumping on one bandwagon or the other.

GDPR compliance requires very clearly defined protections so I am interested here.

markpb · 29-12-2019 3:55pm

trellheim wrote: »

It certainly is, but as mentioned above, the DPC apparently has issued a directive or something.

I've read the DPC website and can find no mention of it recently, but perhaps am looking in the wrong place. I want to see what exactly is the issue before jumping on one bandwagon or the other.

GDPR compliance requires very clearly defined protections so I am interested here.

https://www.businesspost.ie/ireland/gardai-are-told-to-switch-off-number-plate-id-cameras-5a0b7709

Spanish Eyes · 29-12-2019 4:07pm

Seems to be no problem with ANPR on the M50 Toll Bridge. I suppose that is a special case, but enforcing traffic laws and catching criminals (as in the link above) is problematic.

I am scratching my head here!

markpb · 29-12-2019 4:13pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Seems to be no problem with ANPR on the M50 Toll Bridge. I suppose that is a special case, but enforcing traffic laws and catching criminals (as in the link above) is problematic.

I am scratching my head here!

At a guess, they have a specific legislative mandate under whatever act empowers the M50 toll operator to collect the tolls. AGS were probably operating their ANPR without supporting legislation or with improper processes.

TuringBot47 · 29-12-2019 4:25pm

But these are fixed bus lane cameras ?

I've seen European countries where the buses themselves had dashcams.
That sounds much more effective.

Then the bus(es) themselves become a mobile bus lane camera.
Any car that is in their way will be caught.
Even if only 10% of the fleet had them, it would be enough to make driver afraid of being behind them in a bus lane.

I really wish the government would be thought into the implementation.
Everyone will learn where the fixed cameras are.

Breezer · 29-12-2019 4:36pm

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Using GDPR as a reason no to do something (in this case not rolling out static ANPR cameras) is the administrative equivalent of a No Comment Garda interview. They are all over Continental Europe as is GDPR, with no issues on privacy when driving a vehicle on a public road. Nor should there be.

Yep, that was the point I was making. I’m in full agreement with you. ‘GDPR’ is up there with ‘Health and Safety’ as an excuse for everything.

trellheim · 29-12-2019 9:39pm

markpb wrote: »

https://www.businesspost.ie/ireland/gardai-are-told-to-switch-off-number-plate-id-cameras-5a0b7709

thanks - Behind a paywall ? Also I presume it is just the newspaper article - theres lots of DPC opinions on the DPC website, but it is not listed there.

cgcsb · 30-12-2019 11:11am

It's great and all but can DCC actually issue fines using the anpr? Didn't they have to turn off the camera at blackhall place?

The bus gate on bachelors walk, college green and city quay seem like obvious starting points. The double bus lane on pears st is also regularly chocoblock with cars.

LeinsterDub · 01-01-2020 4:19pm

cgcsb wrote: »

It's great and all but can DCC actually issue fines using the anpr? Didn't they have to turn off the camera at blackhall place?

The bus gate on bachelors walk, college green and city quay seem like obvious starting points. The double bus lane on pears st is also regularly chocoblock with cars.

I can only assume their plan is to embarrass AGS and the government into action?

trellheim · 01-01-2020 4:53pm

The Blackhall place camera was a pilot scheme. It was not extended and there were no GDPR issues I am aware of ( that said, GDPR was not in force at that time) Of the red light breakers 68% were motorists and 32% were cyclists

Here is some information http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/cameras-benburb-blackhall-luas-red-lights/

I cannot see what the GDPR issue is.

markpb · 01-01-2020 4:57pm

cgcsb wrote: »

It's great and all but can DCC actually issue fines using the anpr? Didn't they have to turn off the camera at blackhall place?

Local authorities can hire traffic wardens with the authority to issue fines for some offences. I’m not sure if bus lane enforcement is covered by that or if ANPR could be used.

cgcsb · 01-01-2020 5:40pm

If they're going to spend public money on it we need to know if it will actually amount to anything.

donvito99 · 01-01-2020 6:56pm

cgcsb wrote: »

If they're going to spend public money on it we need to know if it will actually amount to anything.

Bachelors Walk is an obvious location.

Is it not obvious that such technology would reduce the number of vehicles using that stretch of bus lane illegally with the effect of improving journey times for bus passengers in particular? What more is required?

cgcsb · 01-01-2020 7:02pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Bachelors Walk is an obvious location.

Is it not obvious that such technology would reduce the number of vehicles using that stretch of bus lane illegally with the effect of improving journey times for bus passengers in particular? What more is required?

I think it is, in rush hour it's common for buses to take upto half an hour to get from Ormond quay to Nassau st. This is largely due to cars and taxis using bus lanes illegally

LeinsterDub · 01-01-2020 7:22pm

cgcsb wrote: »

If they're going to spend public money on it we need to know if it will actually amount to anything.

If anything it will result in better more predictable bus journeys

cgcsb · 01-01-2020 8:30pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

If anything it will result in better more predictable bus journeys

Assuming that fines are issued and enforced. Rather than simply collecting data on how many violations there are in what location broken down y Audi or non Audi etc.

AndrewJRenko · 02-01-2020 12:09pm

trellheim wrote: »

The Blackhall place camera was a pilot scheme. It was not extended and there were no GDPR issues I am aware of ( that said, GDPR was not in force at that time) Of the red light breakers 68% were motorists and 32% were cyclists

Here is some information http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/cameras-benburb-blackhall-luas-red-lights/

I cannot see what the GDPR issue is.

It wasn't just that 'it wasn't extended'. They had to stop passing over reports to the Gardai for action as there were too many reports for the Gardai to actually deal with, unsurprisingly.

This raises a bit issue for the planned expansion - how will it be resourced to ensure that they can actually continue to issue a significant number of fines that will stand up in Court.

trellheim · 02-01-2020 12:55pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It wasn't just that 'it wasn't extended'. They had to stop passing over reports to the Gardai for action as there were too many reports for the Gardai to actually deal with, unsurprisingly.

This raises a bit issue for the planned expansion - how will it be resourced to ensure that they can actually continue to issue a significant number of fines that will stand up in Court.

Thats interesting - as you say what point any new initiative here unless it is resourced ? There seems to be some resistance out there to "flash-for-cash" BS if you look at that kind of thing on twitter but I cant see any reason why it can't be self-financing.. and the day it makes no money because no-one ran a red light - I'm ok with that.

Still not a GDPR issue tho

DrumSteve · 02-01-2020 12:58pm

Eagerly awaiting one for the bus lane on the naas road across from the red cow heading towards town.

All the queue jumpers can suck it as far as Im concerned.

Macy0161 · 02-01-2020 1:04pm

Hard to see that any Data Protection issues/ concerns couldn't be overcome.

However, there's no political will to introduce ANPR, which could be used for tax, insurance, nct, bus lanes, red lights, yellow boxes, cycle lanes, illegal turns etc., as they're too politically unpopular with all the supposedly law abiding motorists ("Shooting fish in a barrel, Joe...").

I get there's no political will, I really don't understand the RSA not being stronger on their use, and instead want more gardai instead of the technology that's used in other countries.

AndrewJRenko · 02-01-2020 10:04pm

Macy0161 wrote: »

Hard to see that any Data Protection issues/ concerns couldn't be overcome.

However, there's no political will to introduce ANPR, which could be used for tax, insurance, nct, bus lanes, red lights, yellow boxes, cycle lanes, illegal turns etc., as they're too politically unpopular with all the supposedly law abiding motorists ("Shooting fish in a barrel, Joe...").

I get there's no political will, I really don't understand the RSA not being stronger on their use, and instead want more gardai instead of the technology that's used in other countries.

In fairness, they are rolling out the Garda Mobility App to put ANPR functionality in the hands of every Garda .

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/new-app-being-rolled-out-to-gardai-to-detect-dodgy-drivers-38366052.html

Bus lane cameras to be introduced in 2020

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