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Solicitors contributing to Ireland's Insurance Fraud Culture

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    #92
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,156 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Patrick2010 wrote: »
    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/couple-loses-defamation-claim-against-dublin-restaurant-whose-staff-asked-them-to-pay-dinner-bill-969365.html

    "Judge O’Connor said the couple had taken umbrage in relation to their having been asked to pay the bill and had claimed that this had been defamatory. Mr Brennan had sat down with them and had tried to explain matters.

    “Quite frankly, asking someone to pay for a meal isn’t defamatory and by no stretch of the imagination is there any evidence that they were defamed,” the judge said.

    He felt Mr McCarthy’s argumentative attitude, as displayed in his evidence, may have had more to do with what had happened in the restaurant.

    Judge O’Connor said costs followed the event and he did not have the jurisdiction not to make an order for costs on the basis there would be no appeal of the court’s decision. When told by counsel for the couple they would not be appealing his decision the judge made no order for costs against them."

    Their solicitor presumably took the case on a no foal no fee basis so nothing to lose for this couple.

    If somebody can make head or tail of this it would be appreciated.
    Judge O’Connor said costs followed the event and he did not have the jurisdiction not to make an order for costs on the basis there would be no appeal of the court’s decision. When told by counsel for the couple they would not be appealing his decision the judge made no order for costs against them."


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    #93
    irishgeo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭irishgeo


    an interesting post from supermacs

    Insurance-Where-the-money-goes.jpg

    how the hell does a 9k settlement invole over a 100k of legal costs.


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    #94
    Liberta Per Gli Ultra
    Registered Users Posts: 258 ✭✭Liberta Per Gli Ultra


    Insurance industry’s ‘compo culture’ spin is the dodgiest claim of all (Irish Times)
    Data shows supposedly widespread culture of fraud is untrue

    The problem with the narrative that says a “compo culture” has caused a recent surge in insurance premiums is that it is a ball of smoke fuelled by prejudice and innuendo. It is the insurance industry’s gift to modern shaming culture.

    This dodgy, decrepit, deceitful narrative is propagated by vested interests and appears to be a stranger to the facts. Yet for some odd reason, wider society, including many of us who should know better, can’t get enough of it. Ravenously, we swallow it down, bones and all, begging for more. More lies.


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    #95
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    As long as the game allows lawyers to chase ambulances they will.
    There needs to be some cap etc to stop this from happening.
    What cap? I don't know but I'm sure there are people who do.


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    #96
    Jurgen The German
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭Jurgen The German


    Liberta Per Gli Ultra wrote: »
    Insurance industry’s ‘compo culture’ spin is the dodgiest claim of all (Irish Times)

    Propaganda piece and nothing more. Almost 250 insurers have exited the irish market in the last 6 years.

    https://extra.ie/2019/12/11/business/irish/248-insurance-companies-exited-irish-market

    Are people really so naive / stupid to think that insurers would be leaving if there was money to be made?

    Insurers are in the risk business, the risks in ireland are now too high for alot of them so the up sticks.


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    #97
    angel eyes 2012
    Registered Users Posts: 900 ✭✭✭angel eyes 2012


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    If somebody can make head or tail of this it would be appreciated.

    Judge awarded costs to the plaintiffs despite them losing the case, it was on the undertaking that they did not appeal his decision to the High Court.

    I'm not actually sure why the judge said he has no jurisdiction to award costs against them, perhaps because the defendants and potentially the plaintiff's solicitors would never get paid if he awarded costs against the plaintiffs.


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    #98
    mikemac2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,926 ✭✭✭mikemac2


    Pat McDonagh and Supermacs is willing to spend 100k on legal costs to defend a case which is settled for 9k

    I suppose it shows why decisions get made by many not to fight and just make a settlement offer. This case seems a bit of a disaster.

    Fair play to him though. Maybe his tactic of fighting these cases is a money loser and he'd be better off settling but he sticks to it and doesn't give up fighting


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    #99
    Jurgen The German
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭Jurgen The German


    mikemac2 wrote: »
    Pat McDonagh and Supermacs is willing to spend 100k on legal costs to defend a case which is settled for 9k

    I suppose it shows why decisions get made by many not to fight and just make a settlement offer. This case seems a bit of a disaster.

    Fair play to him though. Maybe his tactic of fighting these cases is a money loser and he'd be better off settling but he sticks to it and doesn't give up fighting

    Doesn't want to be seen as a soft touch, makes sense for his business. Iaranroid Eireann also defend every single claim unless they are 100% liable.


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    #100
    pinkyeye
    Registered Users Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭pinkyeye


    Whilst I agree that the legal profession is a huge part of the problem here, there was a TD (can't remember his name) who provided proof in the the public accounts committee that the insurance companies were using this as an excuse to rise premiums with NO justification.


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    #101
    angel eyes 2012
    Registered Users Posts: 900 ✭✭✭angel eyes 2012


    pinkyeye wrote: »
    Whilst I agree that the legal profession is a huge part of the problem here, there was a TD (can't remember his name) who provided proof in the the public accounts committee that the insurance companies were using this as an excuse to rise premiums with NO justification.

    Don't forget the medical profession who supply the medical reports. Always amazing how the receipt of the award cheque cures all ailments and injuries, which the doctors describe on the reports, particularly with whiplash type injuries.


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    #102
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,772 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    There's a good article in todays Sunday Times where litigants are being sought to sue Tcketmaster because their data privacy was breached last year.

    I got the email last year from Ticketmaster advising me of this breach so I deleted it and just changed my password.

    In light of todays article I might just climb aboard the gravy train as these solicitors are doing it on a no win no fee basis.


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    #103
    Ardillaun
    Registered Users Posts: 2,535 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    Jurgen The German wrote: »
    Doesn't want to be seen as a soft touch, makes sense for his business. Iaranroid Eireann also defend every single claim unless they are 100% liable.

    In Canada, the main insurance company for doctors fights every case it thinks it can win regardless of cost. This deters claims and helps to make insurance premiums much lower here.

    https://www.cmpa-acpm.ca/static-assets/pdf/membership/fees-and-payment/2019cal-e.pdf


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    #104
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,763 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Peoples' greed bites everyone on the ass.

    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/creches-set-to-close-amid-rising-costs-970651.html


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    #105
    hullaballoo
    Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,710 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    Interesting and indeed highly telling that there has been absolutely no mention here of the story that puts paid to the complete rubbish that has dominated this thread from the insurance cabal vested interests.

    It's nice to be proven right on this because it's such a rarity that empirical data can be used to support the cause of lawyers. :pac:


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    #106
    jcon1913
    Registered Users Posts: 796 ✭✭✭jcon1913


    hullaballoo wrote: »
    :confused:

    Anything can "work out" as a percentage of anything else.

    Fees aren't calculated as a percentage of the value of any case. But if you divide the fee by the value, yeah, you'll get a percentage. Doesn't tell you anything.

    A bit like the way these polls don't tell you anything. I didn't need a poll to tell me the majority of people believe there's compo culture and lawyers are bad; I have empirical data showing that's what people believe. What neither polls nor the empirical data show is whether or not that belief is well founded.

    FWIW, I believe there is a large cohort of people who are waiting for the day they have an accident so that they can get a pay day. That's what I believe. At the same time, I know that almost all people who get injured would give every penny they might get from a PI claim back if it meant they were never injured.

    I don't know what the intersection is between solicitors encouraging people who have injuries to sue and conspiring to commit fraud but I would doubt there's much of a correlation because there are plenty of legitimate cases to be getting on with that do not carry a risk of serious criminal and professional sanction.

    Ime, those who bring fraudulent claims do not tend to tell their solicitors what they are at.
    Hello and thanks for the detailed postings here. Can you tell me why awards are so high in Ireland versus the rest of the world, even if that is based on your opinion?


    I should tell you my opinion before you do - it is that a group of what David McWilliams would call ''insiders'' who have to deal with a system which rewards them for dysfunctional behavious - lawyers, barristers, insurance companies, and the injured - all benefit from the system. All beneficiaries of the current system engage in whataboutery instead of changing their behavious. And why should they change - no other beneficiaries are giving up any rights or accepting reforms.


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    #107
    Jurgen The German
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭Jurgen The German


    hullaballoo wrote: »
    Interesting and indeed highly telling that there has been absolutely no mention here of the story that puts paid to the complete rubbish that has dominated this thread from the insurance cabal vested interests.

    It's nice to be proven right on this because it's such a rarity that empirical data can be used to support the cause of lawyers. :pac:

    Do you mean the piece from the Joe Duffy of journalism?

    This section per chance?
    Average settlements for litigated cases are €45,000, with legal costs averaging €23,000 in these cases, the Central Bank data obtained from motor insurers shows.

    Or this one.
    For smaller claim awards, those under €100,000, legal costs represent 63pc of the compensation paid.

    Or this one.
    Most litigated claims taken far longer to settle than those that go through the State’s Personal Injuries Assessment Board.

    The average award level is the same for cases settled by the Injuries Board as those that go though the courts.

    Full article below for context


    https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/charlie-weston-horrifying-reading-for-more-than-two-million-motorists-as-its-official-insurers-are-ripping-off-drivers-38788427.html

    Even the title screams red top journalism, horrifying reading me hole.

    I havnt had a chance to read the CB report yet but the above says a profit of 9%.

    To break that down, that equates to €0.09 profit for every €1.00 they spend.

    How many other industries would be lambasted for what is a modest profit.

    Anyway, this thread is about solicitors adding to the problems with insurance, empirical evidence has been provided that they are the biggest winners out of the whole thing, not insurers, not claimants, solicitors.

    :)


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    #108
    Jurgen The German
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭Jurgen The German


    I was having a read of the report over view this morning, it can be found here.

    https://www.centralbank.ie/news/article/press-release-report-national-claims-information-database-16-december-2019

    Some key things from it.
    Loss Ratio: Claims were on average 75% of premiums between 2009 and 2018. This peaked at 94% in 2014 before dropping to 59% in 2017. In 2018, it was 60%.

    So for every € taken in by insurers, €.75 was/is being paid out on claims.

    Funnily enough, Mr Weston failed to make mention of the other costs such as salaries for staff, light, heat, stationary, the normal things every business has to contend with. Thats alot of things to be covered for only €.25 in every euro.
    Cost of a claim: Between 2009 and 2018, the average cost of a claim increased by 64%. In this time injury claims increased by 54% and damage claims increased by 2%.

    Insurers have long been saying that claims costs had been increasing, the proof is in the pudding.

    Direct Settlements: Directly settled injury claims had an average compensation of €11,674 in the period 2015-2018, in addition average legal costs were €1,385, and claims took on average 1.7 years to settle.

    People have long used direct settlement as a stick to beat insurers with, fairly concrete proof that in many instances the wise move is to settle quickly for a substantially cheaper sum. I know its a bitter pill for those unfortunate to get caught up in an exaggerated claim but the greater good must win out.
    Personal Injuries Assessment Board (PIAB) Settlements: Injury claims settled through PIAB had an average compensation of €22,631 in the period 2015-2018, in addition average legal costs were €753, and claims took on average 2.5 years to settle.

    PIAB works. The awards made are still way out of whack however for legal fees to be less than a grand there are savings to be had, both financially and time wise.
    Litigated Settlements (total): Injury claims settled through litigation had an average compensation cost of €45,390 in the period 2015-2018, in addition average legal costs were €23,031, and claims took on average 4.4 years to settle. Litigated settlements costing more than €100k account for 15% of claimants settling through litigation but account for 53% of total litigated costs and involve a number of very large settlements. These very large settlements can have a significant impact on the average compensation and legal cost figures.

    When solicitors get their finger in the pie it literally doubles the cost of claims. Nuff said.

    I've said it before and I will say it again.

    Reduce claims awards and premiums will come down. Insurers have every right to try and make a profit and less than 10% of a return on investment is not exactly creaming it.

    When insurers are in profit that means they are solvent, which means they wont fall into the Setanta or Quinn Direct trap of not having enough money to cover claims. That means drivers are safe in the knowledge that in the event of a claim they and the person they crash into will be covered.

    Reduce awards and excise the legal fraternity from the process and everybody wins, insurers will make more money and premiums will absolutely reduce.


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    #109
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,473 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Another day, another ridiculous payout.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/child-burned-with-bowl-of-soup-at-airfield-estate-awarded-41-000-1.4118432?mode=amp


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    #110
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    My friends hubby is a lawyer ...he's rich.

    He gets a lot of money from botched plastic surgery would you believe?

    Its fantastic because in future i will have a list of all the bad ones in Ireland to avoid. :P


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    #111
    Jurgen The German
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭Jurgen The German


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Another day, another ridiculous payout.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/child-burned-with-bowl-of-soup-at-airfield-estate-awarded-41-000-1.4118432?mode=amp

    Parents dont keep boiling liquid out of childs reach so get €40k for it. Standard.

    They should be sued for naming the poor little bugger Otto.


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    #112
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 39,573 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Jurgen The German wrote: »
    Parents dont keep boiling liquid out of childs reach so get €40k for it. Standard.

    It was placed in front of the child by the staff.
    the court soup and sandwiches were delivered directly to the table and the soup was allegedly placed in front of the infant who grabbed the bowl spilling the liquid over himself

    Also it was a settlement.


    I think the absolute greed by the insurance cartel in this country has been laid bare this week.

    Gougers plain and simple.


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    #113
    Fanny Wank
    Registered Users Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Fanny Wank


    Boggles wrote: »
    I think the absolute greed by the insurance cartel in this country has been laid bare this week.

    Gougers plain and simple.

    Was this the CBI report that showed they lost money over the last ten yrs on motor while (not in the CBI report) hemorrhaging cash on liability business?


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    #114
    easypazz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,346 ✭✭✭easypazz


    Boggles wrote: »
    It was placed in front of the child by the staff.



    Also it was a settlement.


    I think the absolute greed by the insurance cartel in this country has been laid bare this week.

    Gougers plain and simple.

    41k is ridiculous. They said soup should be served at a lower temperature. So next thing is insurance companies will insist that only cold food be served in every restaurant and coffee shop in Ireland.


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    #115
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 39,573 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Fanny **** wrote: »
    Was this the CBI report that showed they lost money over the last ten yrs on motor while (not in the CBI report) hemorrhaging cash on liability business?

    Lost money?

    Don't be drinking the chilled coolade the industry constantly serve you.
    Ireland’s insurance sector held assets worth €303 billion at the mid-point of last year, equating to 110 per cent of gross domestic product

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/insurance-sector-assets-in-ireland-eclipse-300bn-1.3366917?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fbusiness%2Ffinancial-services%2Finsurance-sector-assets-in-ireland-eclipse-300bn-1.3366917


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    #116
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 39,573 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    easypazz wrote: »
    41k is ridiculous. They said soup should be served at a lower temperature.

    Well no they said
    Counsel said it was their contention soup should not be delivered at a temperature which would burn and placed on the table before a child

    Pretty reasonable to be fair. i.e. don't place a bowl of hot anything in front of a 6 month old.

    Liability was contested before they eventually settled, so whether the 41k is ridiculous or not in probably could have been ended much faster and cheaper if liability was accepted.
    He was in hospital for eight days but two days after admission he went into early toxic shock syndrome and developed a fever.

    He has been left with three areas of minor scarring


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    #117
    Fanny Wank
    Registered Users Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Fanny Wank


    Boggles wrote: »
    Lost money?

    Don't be drinking the chilled coolade the industry constantly serve you.

    Ah right you haven't a notion what you're on about. Saves me the trouble of engaging further


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    #118
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 39,573 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Fanny **** wrote: »
    Ah right you haven't a notion what you're on about. Saves me engaging further

    Good for you.

    As you were lad.


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    #119
    Jurgen The German
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭Jurgen The German


    Boggles wrote: »
    Lost money?

    Don't be drinking the chilled coolade the industry constantly serve you.



    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/insurance-sector-assets-in-ireland-eclipse-300bn-1.3366917?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fbusiness%2Ffinancial-services%2Finsurance-sector-assets-in-ireland-eclipse-300bn-1.3366917

    Cool story boggles but yet again you fail to grasp even the most basic fundamentals of insurance.

    Of that €303b, 79% related to LIFE insurance. 13% related to reinsurance. The remainder for non life companies so personal and commercial lines.

    That €303b isn't quite so impressive sounding now but as always with yourself and gobshytes like Charlie Weston on this subject, don't let the truth get in the way of a good hand wringing.

    Over 250 companies have exited the irish insurance market over the last 6 years.

    If there was such filthy lucre to be made one would have to think that the opposite would be happening, only a bona fide idiot could argue otherwise.

    Yet companies are leaving in droves.

    So who is telling the truth?

    Solicitors?

    Charlie Weston?

    BOGGLES????


    Here's a hint, its none of the above, but that's all you are getting from me!


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    #120
    easypazz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,346 ✭✭✭easypazz


    Boggles wrote: »
    Well no they said



    Pretty reasonable to be fair. i.e. don't place a bowl of hot anything in front of a 6 month old.

    Liability was contested before they eventually settled, so whether the 41k is ridiculous or not in probably could have been ended much faster and cheaper if liability was accepted.

    Its still ridiculous.


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    #121
    Fanny Wank
    Registered Users Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Fanny Wank


    Jurgen The German wrote: »
    Cool story boggles but yet again you fail to grasp even the most basic fundamentals of insurance.

    Of that €303b, 79% related to LIFE insurance. 13% related to reinsurance. The remainder for non life companies so personal and commercial lines.

    That €303b isn't quite so impressive sounding now but as always with yourself and gobshytes like Charlie Weston on this subject, don't let the truth get in the way of a good hand wringing.

    Over 250 companies have exited the irish insurance market over the last 6 years.

    If there was such filthy lucre to be made one would have to think that the opposite would be happening, only a bona fide idiot could argue otherwise.

    Yet companies are leaving in droves.

    So who is telling the truth?

    Solicitors?

    Charlie Weston?

    BOGGLES????


    Here's a hint, its none of the above, but that's all you are getting from me!

    Why engage with someone who thinks assets = profits?


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