Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

One for the legals

  • 17-12-2019 10:50am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Irishphotodesk


    Can someone explain to me if it is legal for a barrister to put a client into their car and transport them from the courts, for the express purpose of evading the media ?

    Asking for a friend !

    My understanding is that it would impact on the members of the media's constitutional right to work and would be illegal


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,856 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    My understanding is that it would impact on the members of the media's constitutional right to work and would be illegal
    Their right to work isn't being impeded. They don't have a right to a good story

    Boardsie Enhancement Suite - a browser extension to make using Boards on desktop a better experience (includes full-width display, keyboard shortcuts, dark mode, and more). Now available through your browser's extension store.

    Firefox: https://addons.mozilla.org/addon/boardsie-enhancement-suite/

    Chrome/Edge/Opera: https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/boardsie-enhancement-suit/bbgnmnfagihoohjkofdnofcfmkpdmmce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Can someone explain to me if it is legal for a barrister to put a client into their car and transport them from the courts, for the express purpose of evading the media ?

    Asking for a friend !

    My understanding is that it would impact on the members of the media's constitutional right to work and would be illegal

    This is ridiculous.
    You think that there is a law which states that members of the public are forced to make themselves available to the press?!?


  • Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,759 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    Did you miss a chance to snap Dwyer because his JC bundled him into their car?

    Just to turn the question around, what basis do you have for believing there is any issue with so doing?


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,574 Mod ✭✭✭✭Robbo


    My understanding is that it would impact on the members of the media's constitutional right to work and would be illegal
    You don't have a very good understanding of the law in this area. No photographer is deprived of their (by no means strong) right to a livelihood here, they merely missed out on an opportunity because they were easily outwitted.

    What your're asking for is akin to a sports photographer asking the scorer of a goal if he'd mind taking the shot again as he hadn't his gear set up in time.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Irishphotodesk


    splinter65 wrote: »
    This is ridiculous.
    You think that there is a law which states that members of the public are forced to make themselves available to the press?!?

    Please enlighten me as to which part of my question said that the public are forced to be made available for the media, I asked is it legal for a barrister to shield a client from the media.

    Can a barrister legally put a person into their personal vehicle for the purpose of denying the media an image ?

    If you don't know the answer is ok to admit it or not give any response


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,148 ✭✭✭Salary Negotiator


    Please enlighten me as to which part of my question said that the public are forced to be made available for the media, I asked is it legal for a barrister to shield a client from the media.

    Can a barrister legally put a person into their personal vehicle for the purpose of denying the media an image ?

    If you don't know the answer is ok to admit it or not give any response

    Yes, of course they can. Why do you think they couldn’t?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,718 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    Please enlighten me as to which part of my question said that the public are forced to be made available for the media, I asked is it legal for a barrister to shield a client from the media.

    Can a barrister legally put a person into their personal vehicle for the purpose of denying the media an image ?

    If you don't know the answer is ok to admit it or not give any response
    What a bizarre question!


    How would you prove that that was their intent, for starters?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Please enlighten me as to which part of my question said that the public are forced to be made available for the media, I asked is it legal for a barrister to shield a client from the media.

    Can a barrister legally put a person into their personal vehicle for the purpose of denying the media an image ?

    If you don't know the answer is ok to admit it or not give any response

    Absolutely bizarre line of reasoning. The media have no right, legal or otherwise, to any such images, of anyone.

    What laws do you think they have broken, pray tell?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,862 ✭✭✭un5byh7sqpd2x0


    Please enlighten me as to which part of my question said that the public are forced to be made available for the media, I asked is it legal for a barrister to shield a client from the media.

    Can a barrister legally put a person into their personal vehicle for the purpose of denying the media an image ?

    If you don't know the answer is ok to admit it or not give any response
    Yes they can. On what basis do you think it's illegal?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Irishphotodesk


    Did you miss a chance to snap Dwyer because his JC bundled him into their car?

    Just to turn the question around, what basis do you have for believing there is any issue with so doing?

    For one thing.... Mr Dwyer is in custody and would be in a prison van escorted by prison officers ergo completely different scenario.

    What basis ... Let's say the media person involved is tasked with providing the national media with images from court cases, and a barrister using his/her private vehicle transports the client to and from the court in an effort to avoid being photographed by the media, to me it would be a direct attempt at denying the media person their opportunity to do their job, this my reason for asking .... Is it legal ? Or illegal to transport someone in and out of the courts.

    I'm sure people would be up in arms if every person before the courts were shielded from the media.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Irishphotodesk


    Yes they can. On what basis do you think it's illegal?

    Do you have any case law to support your belief that they can ? I'm genuinely curious.

    I don't have a basis for believing it's legal or illegal to do it, hence the reason for asking the question ... In the hope that someone might provide some legal insight into the legality of the situation.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,510 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    for the purpose of denying the media an image ?
    can you find the statute in irish law which states 'denying the media an image' is illegal?
    it's a bizarre question, surely how the client gets to court has to make absolutely no allowances for whether that inconveniences photographers. unless you're arguing for a mandatory walk of shame.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Irishphotodesk


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    Absolutely bizarre line of reasoning. The media have no right, legal or otherwise, to any such images, of anyone.

    What laws do you think they have broken, pray tell?

    I'm not saying the media have a right , I'm asking about the legality of a barrister using their private vehicle to transport a person in and out of the courts for the express purpose of shielding them from the media.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,856 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    I'm asking about the legality of a barrister using their private vehicle to transport a person in and out of the courts for the express purpose of shielding them from the media.
    Bolded part is irrelevant. Un-bolded part is legal (y'know, providing they are not breaking any traffic laws).

    Boardsie Enhancement Suite - a browser extension to make using Boards on desktop a better experience (includes full-width display, keyboard shortcuts, dark mode, and more). Now available through your browser's extension store.

    Firefox: https://addons.mozilla.org/addon/boardsie-enhancement-suite/

    Chrome/Edge/Opera: https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/boardsie-enhancement-suit/bbgnmnfagihoohjkofdnofcfmkpdmmce



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,510 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm not saying the media have a right , I'm asking about the legality of a barrister using their private vehicle to transport a person in and out of the courts for the express purpose of shielding them from the media.
    now you're just confusing me.
    if the media don't have a right, how can he be denying them a right they don't have?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Do you have any case law to support your belief that they can ? I'm genuinely curious.

    I don't have a basis for believing it's legal or illegal to do it, hence the reason for asking the question ... In the hope that someone might provide some legal insight into the legality of the situation.

    it is legal until it is expressly made illegal. So on what basis do you think it is illegal?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,718 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    I'm not saying the media have a right , I'm asking about the legality of a barrister using their private vehicle to transport a person in and out of the courts for the express purpose of shielding them from the media.
    Again, how would you go about proving that that was their express purpose?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Irishphotodesk


    can you find the statute in irish law which states 'denying the media an image' is illegal?
    it's a bizarre question, surely how the client gets to court has to make absolutely no allowances for whether that inconveniences photographers. unless you're arguing for a mandatory walk of shame.

    Please re-read what I have said I have never said denying the media an image is illegal.

    I have asked about the legality of a barrister transporting a client to and from the court.

    Let's take out the reason for the barrister doing such an action is it legal to transport a person into an area of the courts building where a member of the public otherwise would not have access.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Please re-read what I have said I have never said denying the media an image is illegal.

    I have asked about the legality of a barrister transporting a client to and from the court.

    Let's take out the reason for the barrister doing such an action is it legal to transport a person into an area of the courts building where a member of the public otherwise would not have access.

    there is no law against it that i am aware of and i cant imagine why such a law would exist.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,510 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I have asked about the legality of a barrister transporting a client to and from the court.
    why would - or could - this be illegal?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭chunkylover4


    Please re-read what I have said I have never said denying the media an image is illegal.

    I have asked about the legality of a barrister transporting a client to and from the court.

    Let's take out the reason for the barrister doing such an action is it legal to transport a person into an area of the courts building where a member of the public otherwise would not have access.

    The only place that a barrister has access to in the Four courts that the public do not is the law library where they certainly wouldn't be bringing a client. Similarily in other court buildings, a client would not be brought into the bar room. The bar Council do not have rules on a barrister giving a lift to a client. It would be criminal conduct to force someone into your car against their will and transport them somewhere. Why are you asking this? As others have said it just comes accross as non-sensical.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,101 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    Please enlighten me as to which part of my question said that the public are forced to be made available for the media, I asked is it legal for a barrister to shield a client from the media.

    Can a barrister legally put a person into their personal vehicle for the purpose of denying the media an image ?

    If you don't know the answer is ok to admit it or not give any response

    Why should be made available for an image. Surely a journalist can write a story without 1. Wouldn't incamera laws be illegal then.

    Also you do realise is part of the public and wanting an image would be forcing them to be available to the media


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Irishphotodesk


    why would - or could - this be illegal?

    Because barristers have access to areas of the courts building that are not available to members of the public, ergo by transporting a client into the courts building the client is not subject to the security measures placed on members of the public on arrival of the courts.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Because barristers have access to areas of the courts building that are not available to members of the public, ergo by transporting a client into the courts building the client is not subject to the security measures placed on members of the public on arrival of the courts.

    you said they transported the client away from the building not into the building. If you have evidence that a barrister allowed a client to evade court security you should report it to the relevant authorities.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭chunkylover4


    Because barristers have access to areas of the courts building that are not available to members of the public, ergo by transporting a client into the courts building the client is not subject to the security measures placed on members of the public on arrival of the courts.

    The security measures put in place are simply that. They are not regulated by statute. In the Four Courts, until recently you used to be able to scan a client through the gates with your court card (although obviously you weren't supposed to) however there is now a temporary block on the card once it is used once which prevents this practice so there is an interest in security getting the public the courts through the public entrance. Very few barristers have access to the car park in the complex so the scenario you describe is unlikely to arise too much.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Irishphotodesk


    28064212 wrote: »
    Bolded part is irrelevant. Un-bolded part is legal (y'know, providing they are not breaking any traffic laws).

    Well... There was driving in a bus lane involved and parking in a disabled bay.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭chunkylover4


    Well... There was driving in a bus lane involved and parking in a disabled bay.

    Has the question now become; is it illegal to drive in a bus lane (answer, it depends) and is it illegal to park in a disabled bay (answer, also it depends)?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,148 ✭✭✭Salary Negotiator


    Can someone explain to me if it is legal for a barrister to put a client into their car and transport them from the courts, for the express purpose of evading the media ?

    Asking for a friend !

    My understanding is that it would impact on the members of the media's constitutional right to work and would be illegal
    For one thing.... Mr Dwyer is in custody and would be in a prison van escorted by prison officers ergo completely different scenario.

    What basis ... Let's say the media person involved is tasked with providing the national media with images from court cases, and a barrister using his/her private vehicle transports the client to and from the court in an effort to avoid being photographed by the media, to me it would be a direct attempt at denying the media person their opportunity to do their job, this my reason for asking .... Is it legal ? Or illegal to transport someone in and out of the courts.

    I'm sure people would be up in arms if every person before the courts were shielded from the media.
    Do you have any case law to support your belief that they can ? I'm genuinely curious.

    I don't have a basis for believing it's legal or illegal to do it, hence the reason for asking the question ... In the hope that someone might provide some legal insight into the legality of the situation.
    I'm not saying the media have a right , I'm asking about the legality of a barrister using their private vehicle to transport a person in and out of the courts for the express purpose of shielding them from the media.
    Please re-read what I have said I have never said denying the media an image is illegal.

    I have asked about the legality of a barrister transporting a client to and from the court.

    Let's take out the reason for the barrister doing such an action is it legal to transport a person into an area of the courts building where a member of the public otherwise would not have access.
    Because barristers have access to areas of the courts building that are not available to members of the public, ergo by transporting a client into the courts building the client is not subject to the security measures placed on members of the public on arrival of the courts.
    Well... There was driving in a bus lane involved and parking in a disabled bay.


    Op is all over the place.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Irishphotodesk


    The security measures put in place are simply that. They are not regulated by statute. In the Four Courts, until recently you used to be able to scan a client through the gates with your court card (although obviously you weren't supposed to) however there is now a temporary block on the card once it is used once which prevents this practice so there is an interest in security getting the public the courts through the public entrance. Very few barristers have access to the car park in the complex so the scenario you describe is unlikely to arise to much.

    The reason the card temporary block was put in place was because (I'm told) that members of the public were not permitted to be given access by card holders, and were to go through the security provided for them.

    So I am are getting closer to understanding it may not be illegal but is not common practice and not permitted in the CCJ.


  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Well... There was driving in a bus lane involved and parking in a disabled bay.


    Quite the scoop - front page even.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Well... There was driving in a bus lane involved and parking in a disabled bay.

    did you get a picture of it? front page news that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,718 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    Op is all over the place.
    Sounds to me like OP was out the front of the courts building (which is where the disabled bay and the bus lanes are) - so unless the barrister actually drove up the steps and in the door to put their client in the car, they had their opportunity to get the snap, but just missed it.



    Sour grapes?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Irishphotodesk


    Has the question now become; is it illegal to drive in a bus lane (answer, it depends) and is it illegal to park in a disabled bay (answer, also it depends)?

    The reason for the road traffic issues mentioned ...they were in response to the comment by 28064212 who mentioned unless there was road traffic etc etc.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,574 Mod ✭✭✭✭Robbo


    Quite the scoop - front page even.
    Woodward and Bernstein this ain't.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,510 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Because barristers have access to areas of the courts building that are not available to members of the public, ergo by transporting a client into the courts building the client is not subject to the security measures placed on members of the public on arrival of the courts.
    a) your original question was in relation to driving them *away* from the court, not into it.
    b) if the client was going to court, and their barrister drove them there, by defintion they pretty much *will* have access to the court over and above the general public, because it would clearly concern a legal matter which requires their presence.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    The reason for the road traffic issues mentioned ...they were in response to the comment by 28064212 who mentioned unless there was road traffic etc etc.

    I think you have your answer already.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,510 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    maybe someone else can confirm - do i recall correctly that outside a courthouse is one of the few places where a judge can place a ban on taking photos in a public place?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Please enlighten me as to which part of my question said that the public are forced to be made available for the media, I asked is it legal for a barrister to shield a client from the media.

    Can a barrister legally put a person into their personal vehicle for the purpose of denying the media an image ?

    If you don't know the answer is ok to admit it or not give any response

    Now you’re wondering if it’s legal to give someone a lift.
    Try and think for one minute about things.
    The answer is no it’s not illegal to give someone a lift.
    But what you should do is go to your local Garda station and tell them that you want to report a crime having taken place and see how that pans out.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,148 ✭✭✭Salary Negotiator


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Now you’re wondering if it’s legal to give someone a lift.
    Try and think for one minute about things.
    The answer is no it’s not illegal to give someone a lift.
    But what you should do is go to your local Garda station and tell them that you want to report a crime having taken place and see how that pans out.

    The OP's constitutional right to work has been infringed, this could go all the way to the Supreme Court.

    I wonder how the OP will get there though, can't see many volunteering to give him a lift.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Irishphotodesk


    HeidiHeidi wrote: »
    Sounds to me like OP was out the front of the courts building (which is where the disabled bay and the bus lanes are) - so unless the barrister actually drove up the steps and in the door to put their client in the car, they had their opportunity to get the snap, but just missed it.



    Sour grapes?

    So far off the mark , the disabled bay is across 3 lanes of traffic from the courts and at the far end of the street (across from Aras ui dhalaigh), the bus lane begins at the drive in entrance to the four courts, ie. Morgan place .

    Oh and picture was gotten, just questioning the legality of transportation of a client in and out of courts building, so far all I have gotten is while not common it's not illegal in law but security may have an issue with it.

    Will mention it to the chief justice later and see his view on the matter - have an appointment later today.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Irishphotodesk


    maybe someone else can confirm - do i recall correctly that outside a courthouse is one of the few places where a judge can place a ban on taking photos in a public place?

    Would be interested in learning more about this... I believe the children's court has some sort of situation where it's illegal to photograph on that street (open to correction, someone in courts service mention it to me many moons ago) but I have never heard it being enforced.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,718 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    OK, I mistakenly assumed you were talking about the CCJ, not the Four Courts.


    Still a most bizarre thread/question though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    So far off the mark , the disabled bay is across 3 lanes of traffic from the courts and at the far end of the street (across from Aras ui dhalaigh), the bus lane begins at the drive in entrance to the four courts, ie. Morgan place .

    Oh and picture was gotten, just questioning the legality of transportation of a client in and out of courts building, so far all I have gotten is while not common it's not illegal in law but security may have an issue with it.

    Will mention it to the chief justice later and see his view on the matter - have an appointment later today.

    No please, make a complaint to AGS, tell us how you get on.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Irishphotodesk


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Now you’re wondering if it’s legal to give someone a lift.
    Try and think for one minute about things.
    The answer is no it’s not illegal to give someone a lift.
    But what you should do is go to your local Garda station and tell them that you want to report a crime having taken place and see how that pans out.

    Flip it another way.... Is it legal for a member of the public to bypass security measures of a building aided by someone who has access.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,088 ✭✭✭aaakev


    Flip it another way.... Is it legal for a member of the public to bypass security measures of a building aided by someone who has access.

    Unless there is a specific law covering access to the building then yes... it's a courthouse, not an airport


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,148 ✭✭✭Salary Negotiator


    Flip it another way.... Is it legal for a member of the public to bypass security measures of a building aided by someone who has access.

    Everything is legal, unless it isn't so for most buildings the answer is probably yes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Irishphotodesk


    HeidiHeidi wrote: »
    OK, I mistakenly assumed you were talking about the CCJ, not the Four Courts.


    Still a most bizarre thread/question though.

    Same practice could apply although barristers in CCJ are not permitted to bring clients through the internals of the building, it's the security bypassing that interests me... Is it legal to bypass security for a member of the public because the barrister effectively brings them in.

    Short answer is no... Not illegal (until a client goes postal and questions are asked)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,718 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    Same practice could apply although barristers in CCJ are not permitted to bring clients through the internals of the building, it's the security bypassing that interests me... Is it legal to bypass security for a member of the public because the barrister effectively brings them in.

    Short answer is no... Not illegal (until a client goes postal and questions are asked)

    Initially it was the shielding from a photo op that prompted you to ask, now it's bypassing security.


    Anyone else dying to know who the person was?? :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,148 ✭✭✭Salary Negotiator


    Same practice could apply although barristers in CCJ are not permitted to bring clients through the internals of the building, it's the security bypassing that interests me... Is it legal to bypass security for a member of the public because the barrister effectively brings them in.

    Short answer is no... Not illegal (until a client goes postal and questions are asked)

    Your original question was about driving away from the courthouse and the media's constitutional right to work.

    Seems to me that the barrister did something you didn't like and now you're looking for ways to complain about them to anyone who'll listen. You even name dropped the Chief Justice.

    Fairly pathetic to be honest.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Irishphotodesk


    Your original question was about driving away from the courthouse and the media's constitutional right to work.

    Seems to me that the barrister did something you didn't like and now you're looking for ways to complain about them to anyone who'll listen. You even name dropped the Chief Justice.

    Fairly pathetic to be honest.

    Or ... I'm curious about if the action was legal or not....and seeking the wisdom of those with legal training.

    I have no reason to complain a barrister, curious about the actions and if the actions are not illegal why is it not done more often, it certainly is not a common practice for a barrister to transport a member of the public to and from a court building.

    As for the pathetic remark, that's simply rude and unnecessary.


  • Advertisement
Advertisement