Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

mrjoneill · 13-11-2019 03:15PM

goose2005 wrote: »

If it makes you feel any better, most children who commit terrible crimes have themselves been abused

not true. The murder rate in Ireland is 0.9 per 100,000, incredibly low by international standards. It was actually worse 10 years ago - 2007 was the peak, 1.8.
In the 90s it was usually greater than 1, so higher than nowadays.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/ireland-has-11th-lowest-homicide-rate-in-europe-un-report-1.3956453
https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/ireland/homicide-rate

Garda crime figures show homicides rise

There were almost 17 more homicides on average every year over the last 14 years than were previously recorded, according to heavily qualified official statistics.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/garda-crime-figures-show-homicides-rise-468868.html

mrjoneill · 13-11-2019 03:17PM

tuxy wrote: »

So are you saying the Judge in this case said the same?

I don't state anything but repeating what is reported the trial judge's stated.

Yeah_Right · 13-11-2019 03:30PM

mrjoneill wrote: »

Garda crime figures show homicides rise

There were almost 17 more homicides on average every year over the last 14 years than were previously recorded, according to heavily qualified official statistics.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/garda-crime-figures-show-homicides-rise-468868.html

You clearly did not actually read that article. Or you are cherry picking numbers to support your argument. It was about statistics, data and the recording of crimes. It also mentions that the numbers aren't completely reliable.

Several times it mentions the re-classification of homicides. At no point does it say the ere almost 17 more homicides each year for the last 14 years. It reclassified a number of deaths over that 14 year period as homicides which worked out as 17 more per year than the previous stats said.

tritium · 13-11-2019 03:42PM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

Statistics have more to say: some 70%+ of homicide victims world wide are male. Some 96% of perpetrators are make. What I like about Muldoon’s article is she calls a spade a spade. Ana was murdered because she was a girl. Only a fool could state otherwise. There was more to it certainly but ignoring her gender is just ridiculous.

Where Muldoon goes with it what has rattled cages; she refuses to accept that it’s simply a case of saying these two are extraordinary exceptions and that there’s a bigger problem. You can say 10 women a year isn’t a big problem: well that’s a point of view if a tad dismissive of 10 lives. You can look at the 19,000 cases of domestic violence as another sign of the bigger problem. Alternatively others here have pointed out the unique nature of the case in the age of the perpetrators: that too is a theoretical framing but one which ignores gender. Why ignore it. As an amusement to myself and a trigger to others I might say that an intersectional interpretation has something to be said for it.

We are all looking for solutions. Addressing male violence to females is needed. Why aren’t more males violent toward women and men? Is there a cultural message we pick up and others don’t? What messages do males pick up about violence and it’s uses? These are important questions. It’s not easy to ask them. Turn off the outrage that someone dared ask.

You appear to be understating the number significantly. Remarkably this understatement is roughly equal to the number of domestic violence cases where women are the perpetrators, which given more than 40% of DV palls into this category, is a very substantial number. Remarkable that, don’t know how you slipped up on that way.

Stop moaning ffs · 13-11-2019 03:45PM

The vast majorities of domestic violence and rape cases go unreported according to rape crisis center so stats aren’t really reliable

KWAG2019 · 13-11-2019 03:47PM

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Ok. What is your approach? I would love to read it.
Specifically in regards to male on female violence but also in regards to violence in society in general.

The "my approach" comment was in regard to religion versus law of the land.

I've said repeatedly that I don't know what the solution is to this and I'm simply contributing to a thread on the a very horrific case and example of it. Forums like this lend themselves to "magic bullet" thinking for solutions. Like a lot of complex societal issues it will probably need a complex and ongoing response. All a forum like this can do is begin to turn the thing over and see the dimensions of it. It upsets some people to hear things that they feel is unfair or unproven or offends them or whatever but the thing has to be looked at. The Womens Aid website is well worth looking at.

What I can see is that we need to look at violence in society toward women as part of a broader continuum of attitudes to women: get the vote later, employment limitations, lower pay, should be at home etc etc.

And we can all see that violence in society is mainly male on male and I quoted stats about that earlier. That raises the question is violence against women just part of a broader question of violence?

I don't know what the answer is or if there is an answer.

Faugheen · 13-11-2019 03:48PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

The complete overreaction of Certain men to being lumped in with ‘all men’ in such BS articles tells its own story. Ever so fragile and so easily triggered.

It just highlights that they don’t get it and want to be seen as the victim.

KWAG2019 · 13-11-2019 03:51PM

tritium wrote: »

You appear to be understating the number significantly. Remarkably this understatement is roughly equal to the number of domestic violence cases where women are the perpetrators, which given more than 40% of DV palls into this category, is a very substantial number. Remarkable that, don’t know how you slipped up on that way.

I stated the figures I had stats for and I gave a link to the Womens Aid website. If you have more complete figures all the better. Link me please?

tritium · 13-11-2019 03:52PM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

A real question at last. What do we want to achieve? A reduction in levels of violence from men toward women.

Does that mean we also have to look at levels of violence of men toward men?

“Taking to task” is a poor phrase by Muldoon. It’s too limited and gets certain backs up. What policies do we always recommend to limit damage from mass shootings? Limit access to weapons and stores of ammo. That is a type of taking to task.

Other social policies will be based on the theoretical framework you put in place around the problem. If only someone had offered a link to an article written in accessible English offering an overview to a general audience.

Beyond that I think it needs major educational work and support across society.

Why are women’s lives and wellbeing more important to you than mens?

Statistically a man is vastly more likely to be murdered, or indeed to die in a variety of other violent ways. Surely there’s greater social gain on policies that reduce the death rate there? Or indeed make no gender distinction?

In terms of violence where the parties are in a relationship, women have a similar propensity to engage in domestic violence. Again surely the greater social gain would be to focus on dealing with perpetrators and victims of both genders?

You attitude frankly shows a devaluing of the lives and well being of men and boys that is sadly all too in line with certain media outlets and their rather blatant approach to identity politics

KWAG2019 · 13-11-2019 04:15PM

tritium wrote: »

Why are women’s lives and wellbeing more important to you than mens?

Statistically a man is vastly more likely to be murdered, or indeed to die in a variety of other violent ways. Surely there’s greater social gain on policies that reduce the death rate there? Or indeed make no gender distinction?

In terms of violence where the parties are in a relationship, women have a similar propensity to engage in domestic violence. Again surely the greater social gain would be to focus on dealing with perpetrators and victims of both genders?

You attitude frankly shows a devaluing of the lives and well being of men and boys that is sadly all too in line with certain media outlets and their rather blatant approach to identity politics

I've said a lot of this already on the thread.
I've replied above giving you sources of stats I supplied.
If you read what I wrote you would see that your last paragraph is simply agenda driven without any thought involved.

Faugheen · 13-11-2019 04:18PM

tritium wrote: »

Why are women’s lives and wellbeing more important to you than mens

And there we are. Someone who simply doesn’t get it.

Yeah_Right · 13-11-2019 04:20PM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

The "my approach" comment was in regard to religion versus law of the land.

I've said repeatedly that I don't know what the solution is to this and I'm simply contributing to a thread on the a very horrific case and example of it. Forums like this lend themselves to "magic bullet" thinking for solutions. Like a lot of complex societal issues it will probably need a complex and ongoing response. All a forum like this can do is begin to turn the thing over and see the dimensions of it. It upsets some people to hear things that they feel is unfair or unproven or offends them or whatever but the thing has to be looked at. The Womens Aid website is well worth looking at.

What I can see is that we need to look at violence in society toward women as part of a broader continuum of attitudes to women: get the vote later, employment limitations, lower pay, should be at home etc etc.

And we can all see that violence in society is mainly male on male and I quoted stats about that earlier. That raises the question is violence against women just part of a broader question of violence?

I don't know what the answer is or if there is an answer.

I don't think that physical violence towards women has anything to do with attitudes to voting, employment, pay etc. I don't think it really has anything to do with being sexist or misogynistic. I think in most cases it is about bullies knowing that they can physically dominate their victim because men are physically stronger than women (in general). And something in their heads makes them feel better about themselves by beating someone.

You agree that most of the violence in society (murder and assault) is male on male, so shouldn't that be prioritised? Why should the murder/assault of women get so much attention if the number of victims is significantly lower than the number of male victims? Have we just decided as a society that violence committed by one man on another is acceptable or normal?

tritium · 13-11-2019 04:23PM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I stated the figures I had stats for and I gave a link to the Womens Aid website. If you have more complete figures all the better. Link me please?

Except women’s aid only cater for women, (I guess the clue is in the name). Funding for male victims has never seemed a big government priority. Try the 2005 cosc report for one of the limited cases where abuse of and by both genders is considered

http://www.cosc.ie/en/COSC/Abuse%20Report%20NCC.pdf/Files/Abuse%20Report%20NCC.pdf

volchitsa · 13-11-2019 04:25PM

tritium wrote: »

Why are women’s lives and wellbeing more important to you than mens?

Statistically a man is vastly more likely to be murdered, or indeed to die in a variety of other violent ways. Surely there’s greater social gain on policies that reduce the death rate there? Or indeed make no gender distinction?

In terms of violence where the parties are in a relationship, women have a similar propensity to engage in domestic violence. Again surely the greater social gain would be to focus on dealing with perpetrators and victims of both genders?

You attitude frankly shows a devaluing of the lives and well being of men and boys that is sadly all too in line with certain media outlets and their rather blatant approach to identity politics

You are not actually suggesting that as many men are murdered by their female partners or ex partners as women are by male partners/exes? Are you?

I'd really like to see the evidence for that.

tritium · 13-11-2019 04:28PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

The vast majorities of domestic violence and rape cases go unreported according to rape crisis center so stats aren’t really reliable

That however is one of the difficulties with getting accurate statistics- what is classified as rape by a support service and in the legal sense can be vastly different. Throw in the significant distortion of data and statistics on all sides and frankly rape statistics become a cluster **** of epic proportions

tritium · 13-11-2019 04:31PM

volchitsa wrote: »

You are not actually suggesting that as many men are murdered by their female partners or ex partners as women are by male partners/exes? Are you?

I'd really like to see the evidence for that.

I’m suggesting that similar numbers of men are victims of domestic violence by a female partner as vice versa- the data and evidence is in the link in my previous post. The murder element largely goes to both physical differences and how that affects intensity of damage, as well as how DV manifests with each gender.

tritium · 13-11-2019 04:34PM

Faugheen wrote: »

And there we are. Someone who simply doesn’t get it.

You’re right I don’t get why the life of an innocent woman would be prioritized over the life of an innocent man

Please, educate me as to what makes one life more valuable than the other?

volchitsa · 13-11-2019 04:37PM

tritium wrote: »

I’m suggesting that similar numbers of men are victims of domestic violence by a female partner as vice versa- the data and evidence is in the link in my previous post. The murder element largely goes to both physical differences and how that affects intensity of damage, as well as how DV manifests with each gender.

Err, so by minimising actual death as merely due to differences in physical strength and by equating nasty comments to broken bones (and indeed perhaps death) you manage to convince yourself that men are victims too?

FFS.

By that logic a little old man who gets beaten to death in his home by a gang of young travellers is as guilty as they are if he ever made nasty comments about travellers in the past.

volchitsa · 13-11-2019 04:38PM

tritium wrote: »

You’re right I don’t get why the life of an innocent woman would be prioritized over the life of an innocent man

Please, educate me as to what makes one life more valuable than the other?

Eh, the man isn't dead?

tritium · 13-11-2019 04:42PM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

The "my approach" comment was in regard to religion versus law of the land.

I've said repeatedly that I don't know what the solution is to this and I'm simply contributing to a thread on the a very horrific case and example of it. Forums like this lend themselves to "magic bullet" thinking for solutions. Like a lot of complex societal issues it will probably need a complex and ongoing response. All a forum like this can do is begin to turn the thing over and see the dimensions of it. It upsets some people to hear things that they feel is unfair or unproven or offends them or whatever but the thing has to be looked at. The Womens Aid website is well worth looking at.

What I can see is that we need to look at violence in society toward women as part of a broader continuum of attitudes to women: get the vote later, employment limitations, lower pay, should be at home etc etc.

And we can all see that violence in society is mainly male on male and I quoted stats about that earlier. That raises the question is violence against women just part of a broader question of violence?

I don't know what the answer is or if there is an answer.

Tell me this is a pisstake? Welcome to 2019! Amazingly we’ve had universal sufferage for over 3 generations now. We granted women the vote in a similar timeframe that we granted a large portion men the vote- after they’d gone and been slaughtered at verdun and paschendale and had made it socially impossible for a landed elite to deny them anymore. In 2019 it’s illegal to pay women less for gender reasons- I realize someone posted something online a few days ago about how women are working for free from now due to the gender pay gap. The good news is from the next few days on the hours they’re working will go to address the gender hours gap: the time already served by male employees this year

splinter65 · 13-11-2019 04:49PM

tritium wrote: »

You’re right I don’t get why the life of an innocent woman would be prioritized over the life of an innocent man

Please, educate me as to what makes one life more valuable than the other?

The general idea appears to be that because women only have the vote for 100 years and they choose to take more time off from the workplace then men so earn less money over a lifetime then men and because they are physically smaller then men then women are of a higher value then men.

tritium · 13-11-2019 04:56PM

volchitsa wrote: »

Eh, the man isn't dead?

Did you actually bother your ass to read what I wrote or just wanted an outlet fro some outrage. Here try again, I’ve even bolded the key bits for you

tritium wrote: »

Why are women’s lives and wellbeing more important to you than mens?

Statistically a man is vastly more likely to be murdered, or indeed to die in a variety of other violent ways. Surely there’s greater social gain on policies that reduce the death rate there? Or indeed make no gender distinction?

And then in te context of the posters point re DV

In terms of violence where the parties are in a relationship, women have a similar propensity to engage in domestic violence. Again surely the greater social gain would be to focus on dealing with perpetrators and victims of both genders?

You attitude frankly shows a devaluing of the lives and well being of men and boys that is sadly all too in line with certain media outlets and their rather blatant approach to identity politics

Tell me though what is it that so scares certain posters from admitting the reality of the evidence on female perpetrated domestic violence

volchitsa · 13-11-2019 04:57PM

splinter65 wrote: »

The general idea appears to be that because women only have the vote for 100 years and they choose to take more time off from the workplace then men so earn less money over a lifetime then men and because they are physically smaller then men then women are of a higher value then men.

You're aware that they usually aren't on holiday, which is what you make it sound like?

In fact currently the alternative is that most women would just stop having children. As in Japan and Korea. And Germany to a lesser extent.

And it's not women who stop men from taking time off to look after their children, it's usually precisely because they refuse to sacrifice their careers for their children. So isn't it in everyone's interests that women should not be stigmatised for pregnancy and motherhood?

Which is what you doing there.

tritium · 13-11-2019 04:58PM

volchitsa wrote: »

Err, so by minimising actual death as merely due to differences in physical strength and by equating nasty comments to broken bones (and indeed perhaps death) you manage to convince yourself that men are victims too?

FFS.

By that logic a little old man who gets beaten to death in his home by a gang of young travellers is as guilty as they are if he ever made nasty comments about travellers in the past.

Seriously I suggest you actually read that report before you peddle ****e like that, otherwise you’ll just embarrass yourself

volchitsa · 13-11-2019 05:00PM

tritium wrote: »

Did you actually bother your ass to read what I wrote or just wanted an outlet fro some outrage. Here try again, I’ve even bolded the key bits for you

And then in te context of the posters point re DV

Tell me though what is it that so scares certain posters from admitting the reality of the evidence on female perpetrated domestic violence

Men are more likely to be murdered by other men. You're attempting a false equivalence there. Men are violent to other men and to women.

That makes it a problem with men, and pretending that women are the perpetrators as much as men is just trolling. On this particular thread you should be ashamed of yourself. I'm out of here.

tritium · 13-11-2019 05:03PM

volchitsa wrote: »

You're aware that they usually aren't on holiday, which is what you make it sound like?

In fact currently the alternative is that most women would just stop having children. As in Japan and Korea. And Germany to a lesser extent.

And it's not women who stop men from taking time off to look after their children, it's usually precisely because they refuse to sacrifice their careers for their children. So isn't it in everyone's interests that women should not be stigmatised for pregnancy and motherhood?

Which is what you doing there.

Bull****, second thread in the last couple of days where a few posters have been peddling this accusation that it’s career focused men bullying women to stay at home so they can work harder and climb the ladder. No evidence, just shouting it loud and hoping it sticks: newsflash, the world is more complex than you might like to infer and women actually have agency of their own.

tritium · 13-11-2019 05:08PM

volchitsa wrote: »

Men are more likely to be murdered by other men. You're attempting a false equivalence there. Men are violent to other men and to women.

That makes it a problem with men, and pretending that women are the perpetrators as much as men is just trolling. On this particular thread you should be ashamed of yourself. I'm out of here.

And the mask slips finally

A problem with men.

One of the least prevalent crimes going. Perpetrated by a tiny fraction of a percent of the population

But it’s a problem with men

Meanwhile the 40% of DV perpetrated by females is just scratches and name calling

Pathetic stuff

volchitsa · 13-11-2019 05:09PM

tritium wrote: »

Bull****, second thread in the last couple of days where a few posters have been peddling this accusation that it’s career focused men bullying women to stay at home so they can work harder and climb the ladder. No evidence, just shouting it loud and hoping it sticks: newsflash, the world is more complex than you might like to infer and women actually have agency of their own.

You're on a thread about a girl who was raped and murdered by, guess what, not another girl. Violence against women by men is a reality, despite your disgusting attempt to create false equivalents here. You need to go somewhere else to spit your Incel venom amd hatred at women.

Mr E · 13-11-2019 05:16PM

Mod: Take it down a notch or two, folks. Keep it civil.

Yeah_Right · 13-11-2019 05:28PM

I think her murder had less to do with her being female and more with her being an "outsider" and vulnerable and an easy target. If it wasn't her, they may have targeted a boy if he was in a similar situation to her's. Obviously I'm speculating here because I don't know but based on what I have read, I think they just wanted to kill someone.

Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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