Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

Calhoun · 12-11-2019 11:43PM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

A real question at last. What do we want to achieve? A reduction in levels of violence from men toward women.

Does that mean we also have to look at levels of violence of men toward men?

“Taking to task” is a poor phrase by Muldoon. It’s too limited and gets certain backs up. What policies do we always recommend to limit damage from mass shootings? Limit access to weapons and stores of ammo. That is a type of taking to task.

Other social policies will be based on the theoretical framework you put in place around the problem. If only someone had offered a link to an article written in accessible English offering an overview to a general audience.

Beyond that I think it needs major educational work and support across society.

Who is the we you are speaking about?

So we limit access to women or men in society so they wont have a the ability to be violent?

What theoretical frameworks should we target? Should it be all men or do we limit by certain religious or minorities? I have a certain religion in mind that is fairly violent and is a patriarchal society, i think applying these generalization to it also might work.

mrjoneill · 13-11-2019 12:01AM

tuxy wrote: »

My understanding is that Boy A has received a life sentence which normally does come with a recommended review date. That does not mean they will be reviewing if the life sentence sticks but that is the earliest date they will start to consider his release on licence.

"A judge in the central criminal court in Dublin on Tuesday sentenced one boy to life in detention, with the sentence to be reviewed after 12 years. The other received 15 years, with the sentence to be reviewed after eight years."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/05/teenagers-sentenced-for-of-irish-14-year-old-ana-kriegel

I find it too innocent to call any of these monsters "Boy". I associate such with schoolboy, choirboy etc all with innocence.

I believe A sentence can be determined in its full context by looking at B sentence. B has got a conditional 15yrs to be reviewed after 8yrs. Should the review be satisfactory after 8yr he could walk away without further restrictions. Similarly for A if the review is satisfactory after 12yrs he could walk away too with the only restrictions being the Sex Offenders Registrar.

tuxy · 13-11-2019 12:06AM

mrjoneill wrote: »

"A judge in the central criminal court in Dublin on Tuesday sentenced one boy to life in detention, with the sentence to be reviewed after 12 years. The other received 15 years, with the sentence to be reviewed after eight years."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/05/teenagers-sentenced-for-of-irish-14-year-old-ana-kriegel

I find it too innocent to call any of these monsters "Boy". I associate such with schoolboy, choirboy etc all with innocence.

I believe A sentence can be determined in its full context by looking at B sentence. B has got a conditional 15yrs to be reviewed after 8yrs. Should the review be satisfactory after 8yr he could walk away without further restrictions. Similarly for A if the review is satisfactory after 12yrs he could walk away too with the only restrictions being the Sex Offenders Registrar.

I see nothing there about the life verdict being removed. In every other life sentence including one of a minor (Darren Goodwin) review means review for release on licence is considered for the first time at that point. Reviews for life cases usually take 2 - 3 years by the way. There must be a review process with life sentences as there is no fixed date on incarceration.

KWAG2019 · 13-11-2019 12:07AM

Calhoun wrote: »

Who is the we you are speaking about?

So we limit access to women or men in society so they wont have a the ability to be violent?

What theoretical frameworks should we target? Should it be all men or do we limit by certain religious or minorities? I have a certain religion in mind that is fairly violent and is a patriarchal society, i think applying these generalization to it also might work.

The we is every reasonable person of course.

Solutions have to be practical.

The theoretical framework is a big choice because lots flow from it: do you think individualistic or social etc etc.

We are talking Society so religion to my mind is irrelevant and harm reduction measures apply to all.

Calhoun · 13-11-2019 12:10AM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

The we is every reasonable person of course.

Solutions have to be practical.

The theoretical framework is a big choice because lots flow from it: do you think individualistic or social etc etc.

We are talking Society so religion to my mind is irrelevant and harm reduction measures apply to all.

You decide who is being reasonable and not being reasonable?

What theoretical framework would you want to see in place? Social policy would be influenced from this would it not?

So your OK with tackling minority cultures still stuck in the past and forcing them to abide by whatever system you deem to put in place?

Is there a specific answer you could actually give me or are we going to keep doing this dance?

mrjoneill · 13-11-2019 12:17AM

banie01 wrote: »

Are you seriously insinuating that we install police men in our schools?

The police presence in US schools is indicative of societal failure.
It's the most imprisoned population in the world, yet still incredibly violent.
Indeed the move from any police presence from being one of "Protectors" of the peace, to being active enforcers is something that is completely contrary to what our Gardaí are designed and indeed legislated to be.

Moving towards enforcing a modicum of societal norms by threat of force or police sanction is frankly ridiculous.

All I'm stating is a fact. But I have observed so many trends that start out in the US end up with Western Europe following.

Calhoun · 13-11-2019 12:19AM

mrjoneill wrote: »

All I'm stating is a fact. But I have observed so many trends that start out in the US end up with Western Europe following.

It has worked out well for them over there, hardly any crime in the US. Especially violent crime :pac::pac::pac:

KWAG2019 · 13-11-2019 12:20AM

Calhoun wrote: »

You decide who is being reasonable and not being reasonable?

What theoretical framework would you want to see in place? Social policy would be influenced from this would it not?

So your OK with tackling minority cultures still stuck in the past and forcing them to abide by whatever system you deem to put in place?

Is there a specific answer you could actually give me or are we going to keep doing this dance?

We can all tell people who are being unreasonable.
I haven’t decided. I already told you it would.
No. This is a decision for society obviously. That’s obvious to reasonable people.
I have no problem with irrational religious beliefs playing second fiddle to reason in the organisation of the common good.
We’re not dancing. We’re typing on a forum. I have no specific solution in mind: I’m simply contributing to a discussion around that.

mrjoneill · 13-11-2019 12:23AM

tuxy wrote: »

I see nothing there about the life verdict being removed. In every other life sentence including one of a minor (Darren Goodwin) review means review for release on licence is considered for the first time at that point. Reviews for life cases usually take 2 - 3 years by the way. There must be a review process with life sentences as there is no fixed date on incarceration.

Its not clear to me Goodwin's release is on licence.
"A 26-year-old Laois man jailed for life as a teenager for hammering a boy to death will be released in less than two years, after his trial judge reviewed his sentence."

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/man-26-jailed-for-life-as-a-teenager-for-hammering-boy-to-death-to-be-released-in-less-than-two-years-30580270.html

Calhoun · 13-11-2019 12:26AM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

We can all tell people who are being unreasonable.
I haven’t decided. I already told you it would.
No. This is a decision for society obviously. That’s obvious to reasonable people.
I have no problem with irrational religious beliefs playing second fiddle to reason in the organisation of the common good.
We’re not dancing. We’re typing on a forum. I have no specific solution in mind: I’m simply contributing to a discussion around that.

Indeed we can also tell the trolls.

You don't have to decide to give us a general idea of where you fall on this one.

What would you do if your changes were looked upon as discrimination against a certain religion or minority group and it sparked more violence?

Oh we are dancing, you trying to avoid answering anything with real substance and me trying to tease out what your saying. I suppose you have to wait for Orla to publish her next article to tell me what you think.

tuxy · 13-11-2019 12:26AM

mrjoneill wrote: »

Its not clear to me Goodwin's release is on licence.
"A 26-year-old Laois man jailed for life as a teenager for hammering a boy to death will be released in less than two years, after his trial judge reviewed his sentence."

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/man-26-jailed-for-life-as-a-teenager-for-hammering-boy-to-death-to-be-released-in-less-than-two-years-30580270.html

https://www.leinsterexpress.ie/news/news/250233/strict-regime-for-killer-of-mountmellick-teenager.html

Sorry about the paywall, this is the important bit

“My hopes, rather than my expectations, were that Darren Goodwin would get a sentence to reflect his crime,” she said. “He hit Darragh once with a hammer from behind and then five times more as he lay on the ground. This was a sustained attack. ... While Mr Goodwin has served his sentence, he is released under licence.

KWAG2019 · 13-11-2019 12:33AM

Calhoun wrote: »

Indeed we can also tell the trolls.

You don't have to decide to give us a general idea of where you fall on this one.

What would you do if your changes were looked upon as discrimination against a certain religion or minority group and it sparked more violence?

Oh we are dancing, you trying to avoid answering anything with real substance and me trying to tease out what your saying. I suppose you have to wait for Orla to publish her next article to tell me what you think.

Oh I certainly can.
I know.
If a religion claimed its religion gave it the right to over rule the law of the land you enforce the law.
No we are typing. My answers are very clear. This is a discussion. I haven’t arrived with any ready made solutions. I’m reading what others write and contributing. It’s a pity you collapse back into personalized jibes when your emotions get the better of you.

mrjoneill · 13-11-2019 12:38AM

Calhoun wrote: »

It has worked out well for them over there, hardly any crime in the US. Especially violent crime :pac::pac::pac:

And what is the trend in Ireland? Going back 20yrs ago murder was very rare, and even 10yrs ago it was also relatively rare. Its not today. There is a murder every day or second day in Ireland. There has been an outpouring of school bullying reportings in recent weeks and school totally failing to deal with the issues as a lot of the time the bullying is online which the school has not the capacity to police. Drugs have become common in schools and most children get their first introduction to drugs in schools. Gangs are becoming more a problem in our schools mimicking the same as US schools. More and more schools are coming under state control, becoming secular loosing their religious controls as happened in the US. More and more the question is being asked in Ireland what is the role of teachers, is it educators or is it policing the classroom and schools and the internet in regards it student population.

mrjoneill · 13-11-2019 12:47AM

tuxy wrote: »

https://www.leinsterexpress.ie/news/news/250233/strict-regime-for-killer-of-mountmellick-teenager.html

Sorry about the paywall, this is the important bit

Ok see that now in respect of Goodwin but it appears to me it was the trial judge's review that reaffirmed it. So it was not set in stone at the trial

At sentencing the trial judge stated.

"He had said the correct sentence for the ‘pre-meditated, brutal, callous murder’ was life imprisonment, but said that he would review it in a decade.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/man-26-jailed-for-life-as-a-teenager-for-hammering-boy-to-death-to-be-released-in-less-than-two-years-30580270.html

tuxy · 13-11-2019 12:53AM

mrjoneill wrote: »

Ok see that now in respect of Goodwin but it appears to me it was the trial judge's review that reaffirmed it. So it was not set in stone at the trial

At sentencing the trial judge stated.

"He had said the correct sentence for the ‘pre-meditated, brutal, callous murder’ was life imprisonment, but said that he would review it in a decade.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/man-26-jailed-for-life-as-a-teenager-for-hammering-boy-to-death-to-be-released-in-less-than-two-years-30580270.html

So are you saying the Judge in this case said the same?

Calhoun · 13-11-2019 12:54AM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

Oh I certainly can.
I know.
If a religion claimed its religion gave it the right to over rule the law of the land you enforce the law.
No we are typing. My answers are very clear. This is a discussion. I haven’t arrived with any ready made solutions. I’m reading what others write and contributing. It’s a pity you collapse back into personalized jibes when your emotions get the better of you.

Evidently we do not always put the law of the land ahead of religious beliefs, Ireland is prime example of that but we could also look at some of the LGBT teachings in the UK and how they have been rejected to see that this isn't always possible

Again retreating back into the emotions jibes in order to shut down others while not actually answering anything or asking anything. I assume you only want "reasonable" people to agree with you.

mrjoneill wrote: »

And what is the trend in Ireland? Going back 20yrs ago murder was very rare, and even 10yrs ago it was also relatively rare. Its not today. There is a murder every day or second day in Ireland. There has been an outpouring of school bullying reportings in recent weeks and school totally failing to deal with the issues as a lot of the time the bullying is online which the school has not the capacity to police. Drugs have become common in schools and most children get their first introduction to drugs in schools. Gangs are becoming more a problem in our schools mimicking the same as US schools. More and more schools are coming under state control, becoming secular loosing their religious controls as happened in the US. More and more the question is being asked in Ireland what is the role of teachers, is it educators or is it policing the classroom and schools and the internet in regards it student population.

Are you sure about murder being rare? is it just that we have become more aware of it and the media like in America is focusing on it allot more?

Bullying is definitely not a new thing, as someone who was bullied back in the day and the school system doing nothing about it is nothing new.

How do you know that drugs are common in schools? and or gangs? North Dublin is not the whole country and even at that we have always had a general drugs problem in Ireland. I remember some of the vigilante marchs in the early 90's over heroin ect.

Could it be the case rather than mimicking or adopting American policies we are actually causing it by the lack of general policing and enforcement of crimes for people under the age of 18?

KWAG2019 · 13-11-2019 01:00AM

Calhoun wrote: »

Evidently we do not always put the law of the land ahead of religious beliefs, Ireland is prime example of that but we could also look at some of the LGBT teachings in the UK and how they have been rejected to see that this isn't always possible

Again retreating back into the emotions jibes in order to shut down others while not actually answering anything or asking anything. I assume you only want "reasonable" people to

I can only answer for what my approach is.
Any reasonable person will see that you resorted to the jibes about O Muldoon etc when you lost control of your emotions. Accusing me of what you are guilty of doing is obvious, weak and enough to tell me that communication with you is pointless.

Calhoun · 13-11-2019 01:09AM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I can only answer for what my approach is.
Any reasonable person will see that you resorted to the jibes about O Muldoon etc when you lost control of your emotions. Accusing me of what you are guilty of doing is obvious, weak and enough to tell me that communication with you is pointless.

Again you answer nothing and look to discredit by saying the other person has lost control over their emotions.

What worse is your over simplification and support for a click bait article without actually wanting to tease it out just essentially posting items that confirm your own bias. Especially when it relates to a topic as serious as the Ana Kriegel case.

Indeed i cannot communicate with you because your not actually saying anything.

mrjoneill · 13-11-2019 01:44AM

BattleCorp wrote: »

The death penalty is illegal in the EU and EU law has supremacy over our legislation. So a referendum would be a waste of time because we can't change the law even if we wanted to.

Unless of course we do an Irexit.

As I understand it its the ECHR that's primary in Europe in this regards. EU is informed by it

All but two of the Member States have now signed Protocol No. 13 [to the Convention, concerning the abolishment of the death penalty in all circumstances,] and all but three of the States which have signed have ratified it.

I also understand the ECHR does not outlaw extradition to the US for crimes with the death penalty but it outlaws the long detention periods prior to trial & awaiting execution

mrjoneill · 13-11-2019 02:19AM

Calhoun wrote: »

Evidently we do not always put the law of the land ahead of religious beliefs, Ireland is prime example of that but we could also look at some of the LGBT teachings in the UK and how they have been rejected to see that this isn't always possible

Again retreating back into the emotions jibes in order to shut down others while not actually answering anything or asking anything. I assume you only want "reasonable" people to agree with you.

Are you sure about murder being rare? is it just that we have become more aware of it and the media like in America is focusing on it allot more?

Bullying is definitely not a new thing, as someone who was bullied back in the day and the school system doing nothing about it is nothing new.

How do you know that drugs are common in schools? and or gangs? North Dublin is not the whole country and even at that we have always had a general drugs problem in Ireland. I remember some of the vigilante marchs in the early 90's over heroin ect.

Could it be the case rather than mimicking or adopting American policies we are actually causing it by the lack of general policing and enforcement of crimes for people under the age of 18?

The stats would tell us murder has become much more common. we were always aware of murder prob even more conscious in the past its was so rare

Bullying prob has been with us since time began, but we are now more focused on it as a specific prob. Its dealing with it in the school with the advent of the internet has made it much more insidious and difficult to police. What happens in the school property should be easily policed by the school but what happens online is a very different matter. As I stated earlier a school of recent had to deal with most of the class of girls being maliciously put on a "sex-cruising" site with their names and faces with fake explicit sex pictures. This is not the easiest matter for the school to police as it did not happen in the school property but it has direct effect on the school.

As for drugs they are out of control. Every party and I mean every party with teenagers has an element of drugs invol. Its no longer the case of a booze up but a booze and drugs up. More and more parties are private house parties. The local pub serves as small part of this as compared to the past. This was a trend which I saw first in the US. We are right up there now with that. Drugs are being dealt in schools just like they are being dealt in pubs and clubs. Never before has drugs being so proliferate.

Drugs was a largely Dublin prob its now an national one. More and more pharmacies doing methadone treatments is symptomatic of this.

As for mimicking US standards or lack of them I believe for schools it has become such a wider and more difficult areas for to police. Its back to what is the role of teachers, is it educators or as police

mrjoneill · 13-11-2019 02:21AM

tuxy wrote: »

So are you saying the Judge in this case said the same?

It was decided at review what the exact sentence was to be.

tuxy · 13-11-2019 02:25AM

mrjoneill wrote: »

It was decided at review what the exact sentence was to be.

No, when Goodwin was originally sentenced the judge decided to postpone the decision on if it should be a life sentence for one decade.
In this case the judge made no such provision that I am aware of.
The sentence Boy A received is life. The sentence is not up for review in 12 years the term of imprisonment is.

Thoie · 13-11-2019 12:01PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Just wondered how the families could stay in the area now? Maybe they think their boys are innocent.

Then again they may have moved on. If they stayed they are either brazen or convinced of their son's innocence. Either way it is awful and it will come out sooner or later.

There's option 3 - they may not have the means to move yet.

If something happened tomorrow, I couldn't just up sticks and move house at a moment's notice, or even within a few years. I'm sure the families have considered it, but just because they've stayed doesn't mean it's brazenness, or that they think their kids are innocent. From what I'm gathering around the edges, at least one of the families has other children as well. Changing job, saving a deposit for a new place to live, finding a new place to live... all these things take time. They're unlikely to have started the process on the day of the arrest.

mrjoneill · 13-11-2019 12:07PM

tuxy wrote: »

No, when Goodwin was originally sentenced the judge decided to postpone the decision on if it should be a life sentence for one decade.
In this case the judge made no such provision that I am aware of.
The sentence Boy A received is life. The sentence is not up for review in 12 years the term of imprisonment is.

Looking at the judgment that was not stated. What it seemed to me the trail judge put the onus back on the convicted killers that the final sentence will be on the reforming that they did which was to be periodically reviewed concluding with the determined period.

ohnonotgmail · 13-11-2019 12:17PM

mrjoneill wrote: »

Looking at the judgment that was not stated. What it seemed to me the trail judge put the onus back on the convicted killers that the final sentence will be on the reforming that they did which was to be periodically reviewed concluding with the determined period.

do you have a link to the judgement because all of the reporting said that Boy A was given a life sentence for murder with a minimum period of 12 years before they can be considered for parole. The parole hearing at that time (assuming it even takes place that early) is not a review of the sentence. It only determines their suitability for release on a life licence.

Yeah_Right · 13-11-2019 12:32PM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I can only answer for what my approach is.
Any reasonable person will see that you resorted to the jibes about O Muldoon etc when you lost control of your emotions. Accusing me of what you are guilty of doing is obvious, weak and enough to tell me that communication with you is pointless.

Ok. What is your approach? I would love to read it.
Specifically in regards to male on female violence but also in regards to violence in society in general.

goose2005 · 13-11-2019 12:58PM

banie01 wrote: »

Thanks for posting the article.

There is a massive call to emotion and generalisation of men as potential violent brutes.
That particular article is really using Ana's violent and abhorrent death as a crutch for an argument that Ireland is a society that is permeated by gender based violence and potential rape.

It does very little to frame Ana's death in anything other than the fault of a mysoginist male society.

It is more an academic jumping on a bandwagon than it is a reasoned or balanced analysis.

Men commit more crime against women than women commit against men; therefore, men are "at war" with women.
Young commit more crime against old than old commit against young; therefore, young are "at war" with old .
Slot in black/white, poor/rich or whatever

They're also blaming it on internet porn, despite all the stats showing that porn has not increased sexual violence. Every kind of erotica was illegal in Ireland in the early 20th century and sexual crimes were extremely common. If this crime happened in the 80s they'd have tied it in to video nasties; in the 50s, Hollywood; in the 1900s, penny dreadfuls and the yellow press; in the middle ages, probably Satan. Whatever the demon du jour was.

goose2005 · 13-11-2019 12:59PM

brendanwalsh wrote: »

If you have a bold dog who bites someone you put them down

These two savages are sub human animals who should be executed

If this was the United States those scumbags would be sodomised until they needed colostomy bags and then suffer a slow painful execution

They need to bring back death penalty in Ireland for murderers

If it makes you feel any better, most children who commit terrible crimes have themselves been abused

mrjoneill wrote: »

And what is the trend in Ireland? Going back 20yrs ago murder was very rare, and even 10yrs ago it was also relatively rare. Its not today. There is a murder every day or second day in Ireland.

not true. The murder rate in Ireland is 0.9 per 100,000, incredibly low by international standards. It was actually worse 10 years ago - 2007 was the peak, 1.8.
In the 90s it was usually greater than 1, so higher than nowadays.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/ireland-has-11th-lowest-homicide-rate-in-europe-un-report-1.3956453
https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/ireland/homicide-rate

Mellor · 13-11-2019 01:22PM

mrjoneill wrote: »

The stats would tell us murder has become much more common. we were always aware of murder prob even more conscious in the past its was so rare

I think you should actually look at the stats. Because they completely contradict the notion that murder is getting more common. The last few years have been below average.

Stop moaning ffs · 13-11-2019 02:22PM

The complete overreaction of Certain men to being lumped in with ‘all men’ in such BS articles tells its own story. Ever so fragile and so easily triggered.

Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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