Near misses - mod warning 22/04 - see OP/post 822

Deleted User wrote: »

So you gave the the big metal box a slap, like an old fashioned teacher to an unruly teenager.

Can't understand this theory going around that some Cyclists suffer from a delusion they are indestructible.

Is this really a theory going around or did you just make that up?

It's pretty plain the reaction came from the poster because he's aware that cyclists are a damn sight more destructible than people driving the big metal boxes around them.

Effects wrote: »

In the heat of the moment it can seem like the right thing to do.
I guess you think it'll make drivers more considerate, rather than them just running you off the road without even realising. I find it often makes them angry.

+1 If someone's that inconsiderate or unobservant to come close to hitting you, hitting their vehicle after the fact isn't likely to make them change their ways. Just make them angrier the next time they see someone on a bike.

Of course it it makes them notice you that's different.

Effects wrote: »

In the heat of the moment it can seem like the right thing to do.
I guess you think it'll make drivers more considerate, rather than them just running you off the road without even realising. I find it often makes them angry.

It can make them angry, but you're assuming that they are paying attention to the road and actually see you doing it. I'd surmise they are left wondering if they hit someone a lot of the time.

Last time a slapped a car was a few weeks ago - driver also most pinned me against a bus, I was overtaking it. She was trying to barge up the outer bus lane at Arran quay. She had no idea I was there, but a slap made her stop in her tracks. Maybe next time she’ll check her mirror?

Maybe Christine wouldn't have turned violent had she not been slapped about though.

Stark wrote: »

Was the person turning right already in the middle of the junction when they started to turn right?

The legal way to turn right when there's constant oncoming traffic is to take up a middle position in the junction, wait for the lights to change red so the oncoming traffic stops, then complete the turn. It's up to the traffic waiting for the green light to be observant and wait for the junction to be clear before proceeding.

Of course, nowadays the driver doing this legally has to contend with 3 or 4 red light runners coming straight through the junction across their path. So the light might be red for about ten seconds by the time they finally get to finish their legal manoeuvre.

Stark wrote: »

Was the person turning right already in the middle of the junction when they started to turn right?

The legal way to turn right when there's constant oncoming traffic is to take up a middle position in the junction, wait for the lights to change red so the oncoming traffic stops, then complete the turn. It's up to the traffic waiting for the green light to be observant and wait for the junction to be clear before proceeding.

Is there some exception set out in law to the usual rule of not breaking a red light for this scenario?

ED E wrote: »

If you get over the line when its green then you're no longer facing a red light and thus arent RLJing as I understand it.

But surely you shouldn't be going over the line unless you can actually pass through the junction? And usually, there IS a further red light on the far side of the junction.

For reference, because it's probably useful for cyclists to know as well.

The first light governs entering the junction. The lights at the end of the junction are repeater lights, their only function is in case your view of the lights at the entrance are blocked. The repeater light turning red is not an excuse to drop anchor and freeze in the middle of the junction.

If you enter the junction and you can't get out before the repeater light goes red because the road ahead is full of traffic, that's a different offence than RLJing, your offence is blocking the junction. Once the traffic clears, you have an obligation to continue on and not sit there continuing to block the junction.

If you enter the junction on a green light, and the repeater light goes red before you have time to exit, you've committed no offence. This is common enough for a lot of junctions where the duration of the amber light is shorter than the time needed to clear the junction while travelling at a safe speed (or cycling speed for that matter).

If you're looking to turn right and there's continuous oncoming traffic, the correct thing to do is take up a position in the middle of the junction (a few junctions will have a box specifically marked out for this) and wait for the red light then exit the junction. If you don't enter the junction and miss an opportunity to turn right as a result, you would fail a driving test for lack of progress.

The ROTR aren't very comprehensive in this regard, but the relevant bit is on page 72: https://www.garda.ie/en/Crime/Traffic-matters/Rules_of_the_road.pdf .

A turning box
showing a white
arrow in a white
edged box, found at
junctions controlled
by traffic lights
This shows where to position a vehicle
if you want to take a right turn. Do
not proceed into the box through a
red light.
If oncoming traffic means you cannot
take a right turn immediately, you
must wait in the box until you can
safely take the turn.

Note that it says don't proceed into the box through a red light. It says nothing about not exiting the box, or having to wait until oncoming traffic has stopped before entering the box.

Not an official source but it is from an approved driving instructor and consistent with advice I've gotten from every other driving instructor and the same behaviour I followed on my test which I passed without being faulted for doing so http://www.safedriver.ie/learning-to-drive/turning-right-at-traffic-lights

Last Friday night around midnight, I was cycling along Earlsfort Terrace and turning right onto Adelaide Road. Traffic already on Adelaide Road has a yield sign but it's all too common for them not to yield. That evening, a taxi was coming along Adelaide Road and did actually slow a bit approaching the junction so he may have seen me and considered yielding, but then he didn't. I let out a roar at him as I made the turn (keeping in the right hand lane so effectively I was then cycling parallel to him along Adelaide Road, with him on my left.

In fairness to him, he pulled over and wound down his window, but immediately shouted at me over and over, "Where's your high-vis?", broken record style. This meant I ended up shouting back, asking whether he'd seen the yield sign and pointing out that I had lights which were brighter than any high-vis which wasn't a requirement anyway. However, it was too confrontational to be in any way a productive conversation. I'm sure he went on his way fully convinced that I should have been wearing high vis and it was somehow my fault, whereas in fact it wearing high vis have made zero difference; there would have been no light shining on it to be reflected back whereas my front light is a good, bright Cateye one.

Then the following day, Sat evening around 8 pm, I was cycling north along Merrion Square West when the motorcyclist travelling north a few yards ahead of me was taken out by a car that had been travelling south swinging right directly across his path to go into a parking space on our side of the road. He didn't a chance. Motorbike was damaged although the biker was able to get up ok. Given that it was less than a day later, what struck me was that the motorcyclist not only had his bike headlamp but was also wearing a high vis vest. The car driver said he never saw him but had no real excuse for this. However, if I had been in his place (just 3-5 secs later), I have no doubt that I'd have been blamed for the collision because I had no high vis, even though the driver clearly just wasn't looking carefully enough.

Coincidentally, just a few days later (yesterday morning coming up to 9 am) I came upon the aftermath of another crash in almost exactly the same place on Merrion Square West (though it seemed to have occurred in the southbound lane this time). There was another motorbike down with a Garda standing over it. Hopefully the motorcyclist was ok.