Near misses - mod warning 22/04 - see OP/post 822

Effects

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

That's an outrageous insinuation. I've sat many driving tests.

Doesn't sound good. How many attempts until you managed to pass?

tnegun

Effects wrote: »

Doesn't sound good. How many attempts until you managed to pass?

0/10

Idleater

Effects wrote: »

Doesn't sound good. How many attempts until you managed to pass?

I read it as that too, but I have passed 6 tests, all first time, car, motorcycle and RoSPA advanced (expires every 3 years).

Anyway, to Andrew, might be worth a refresher on yellow boxes and right turns and advanced stop boxes for right turns.

hesker

You can only stop in the middle of the junction if your way is clear. That means that there isn’t an obstruction (tailback) in the road you are turning into.

Also often the light sequences are messed up. Used to see regular crashes near a place I lived at previously. Traffic turning right would see the straight ahead light go red and presume that it also went red for traffic coming towards them. Only it didn’t. This is more common than you might think.

This is potentially lethal for cyclists so you should always double check traffic is stopped before completing your turn.

Duckjob

Not a near miss so much as typical stupid impatience that could easily have led to an incident.

Was out on one of my local roads close to home this morning when a nice lady in an Audi A3 behind me attempted to overtake me just as I was just start making a right turn that I had clearly signaled. She would have been making the overtake completely blind as the road is bending slightly to the left along that stretch. I had to move out further and gesture to stay back which made her reconsider and pull back in.

When I reviewed my rear camera I could see that she started off well, waiting a good distance behind, but seemed not to have the ability to sustain this good driving behavior and then was coming up quickly behind me, backing off etc. When I made my right turn she seemed to have lost her sh*t and revved off.

She had been behind me for the sum total of 51 seconds, during which time I was doing 30-40kph and we were going through a temporary roadworks area and passing a school. What is wrong with these people ?

mr spuckler

2 this morning, one outside Aldi on East Wall rd where a taxi driver whose view was obstructed by a pedestrian on the footpath decided that he'd exit from Aldi nonetheless just as I passed by. A quick swerve and a loud roar were all that prevented a collision, I got a wave from him which made everything fine. He was literally driving onto a main road which he couldn't see to be clear.

Then closer to work I was turning across the contra-flow bus lane on Leeson st, hand out to signal my turn as I cycled on the solid line of the bus lane. As I moved across the contra-flow bus lane a Cyclone Couriers motorbike rider passed me so far to my right that he was in the cycle lane of the contra-flow. I let a roar at him too, he decided he should stop to explain what a lovely chap I was and seemingly then between the now oncoming bus and the fact he finally saw that I was turning he just gave up and went on his way.

droidus

https://twitter.com/Moistboyce/status/1192818988159569920

Lets face it, we're at war and the other side have the guns.

John_Rambo

droidus wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Moistboyce/status/1192818988159569920

Lets face it, we're at war and the other side have the guns.

No traffic in the outside lane, no excuses, pure unreasonable and dangerous bullying. Driver needs to be pulled in with a serious rollicking and retraining. Van behind was able to overtake safely.

droidus

Dangerous driving. Minimum should be loss of license and suspended sentence.

Breezer

John_Rambo wrote: »

No traffic in the outside lane, no excuses, pure unreasonable and dangerous bullying. Driver needs to be pulled in with a serious rollicking and retraining. Van behind was able to overtake safely.

Van behind was an ambulance, I should hope so!

That is shocking! Please report that!

Driver of the no.69 bus report for more training please. That'll be the extent of it.

work

droidus wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Moistboyce/status/1192818988159569920

Lets face it, we're at war and the other side have the guns.

Write a very nice letter to dublin bus without loosing your sh!t. ask them what action they will take.
please also follow up with the Garda and let us know their response!

This REALLY annoys me as it makes people correct to say your mad cycling it's far too dangerous. We aren't some kind of extreme danger adventure seekers. People just want to go from A to B.
He should be fired no excuse if there was an edge of a manhole cover you could be dead.

work

Regarding the dodgy bus pass did anyone see the clip of the training Shane Ross was promoting with training dublin bus from a cyclist perspective using a VR headset.
The cycle lane was as big as the bus lane. Not sure where it was but the only decent bike lane in Dublin?

tuxy

If you read the tweet replies you can see a verified Dublin Bus account apologise for the inconvenience caused.
So that's the matter sorted.

Hurrache

I've noticed that breaking of red lights is pretty blatant and common amongst Dublin Bus drivers in the city, not just pushing the limits of the orange phase.

Anyway, 2 relatively minor misses this week that got my heart racing, but not with other vehicles.

A dog was sauntering around a corner from a traveller site and we both scared the crap out of each other. His obvious reaction was to chase me, he was persistent bastard and I was running out of road in which I could maintain enough speed to keep him at bay. There was an exit from the site ahead of I went for that, skipped onto the road and was gone. Some dick in a car, who should have seen the whole thing, decided he wasn't happy about my escape route and probably felt hard done by not to witness a mauling, waited until he was alongside me and held his horn down before speeding off.

Then late one evening on the canal, nobody around, a rat ran infront of me. Similar to the dog, both got a fright and it decided to run slightly ahead of me before diving back into the bushes.

Pity I don't have my HRM on either time to see what the peaks were.

AndrewJRenko

Stark wrote: »

For reference, because it's probably useful for cyclists to know as well.

The first light governs entering the junction. The lights at the end of the junction are repeater lights, their only function is in case your view of the lights at the entrance are blocked. The repeater light turning red is not an excuse to drop anchor and freeze in the middle of the junction.

If you enter the junction and you can't get out before the repeater light goes red because the road ahead is full of traffic, that's a different offence than RLJing, your offence is blocking the junction. Once the traffic clears, you have an obligation to continue on and not sit there continuing to block the junction.

If you enter the junction on a green light, and the repeater light goes red before you have time to exit, you've committed no offence. This is common enough for a lot of junctions where the duration of the amber light is shorter than the time needed to clear the junction while travelling at a safe speed (or cycling speed for that matter).

If you're looking to turn right and there's continuous oncoming traffic, the correct thing to do is take up a position in the middle of the junction (a few junctions will have a box specifically marked out for this) and wait for the red light then exit the junction. If you don't enter the junction and miss an opportunity to turn right as a result, you would fail a driving test for lack of progress.

The ROTR aren't very comprehensive in this regard, but the relevant bit is on page 72: https://www.garda.ie/en/Crime/Traffic-matters/Rules_of_the_road.pdf .



Note that it says don't proceed into the box through a red light. It says nothing about not exiting the box, or having to wait until oncoming traffic has stopped before entering the box.

Not an official source but it is from an approved driving instructor and consistent with advice I've gotten from every other driving instructor and the same behaviour I followed on my test which I passed without being faulted for doing so http://www.safedriver.ie/learning-to-drive/turning-right-at-traffic-lights

There is no distinction in ROTR and (I'm fairly sure) in law between the first set of lights and 'repeater' lights. The ROTR is absolutely clear on red lights - you have to stop;

A red light means ‘Stop’. If the light is red as you approach it, you must not go beyond the stop line at that light or, if there is no stop line, you must not go beyond the light

Deleted User wrote: »

Thank you "lack of progress" was the phrase I was trying to think of. I'm also reminded of a pal who failed his motor bike test for not taking up a position in the box when given the opportunity

Just to absolutely clear, the practice of driving testers does not make law.

Idleater wrote: »

I read it as that too, but I have passed 6 tests, all first time, car, motorcycle and RoSPA advanced (expires every 3 years).

Anyway, to Andrew, might be worth a refresher on yellow boxes and right turns and advanced stop boxes for right turns.

Yeah, thanks for the refresher. I've gone through the ROTR repeatedly on this. There is no allowance in ROTR for driving through red lights.

hesker wrote: »

You can only stop in the middle of the junction if your way is clear. That means that there isn’t an obstruction (tailback) in the road you are turning into.

Also often the light sequences are messed up. Used to see regular crashes near a place I lived at previously. Traffic turning right would see the straight ahead light go red and presume that it also went red for traffic coming towards them. Only it didn’t. This is more common than you might think.

This is potentially lethal for cyclists so you should always double check traffic is stopped before completing your turn.

Unless you have a green right filter arrow, you can never assume that you have right of way. A green light always means proceed with caution if doing a right turn.

Hurrache wrote: »

Then late one evening on the canal, nobody around, a rat ran infront of me. Similar to the dog, both got a fright and it decided to run slightly ahead of me before diving back into the bushes.

Watch out for those bastards. They'll report you to the authorities at the drop of a hat.

Stark

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

There is no distinction in ROTR and (I'm fairly sure) in law between the first set of lights and 'repeater' lights. The ROTR is absolutely clear on red lights - you have to stop;

Illegal to turn left or right at any traffic light controlled junction in that case as to turn left or right, you have to first go through a green light to enter the junction, and then exit through the red repeater light for the side road.

DaveyDave

So when I'm driving up to a junction that's already green and I'm waiting to turn right, I'm not legally allowed do so because it turned red, despite the sensor skipping my filter entirely just because I wasn't there the moment the light went green?

Idleater

DaveyDave wrote: »

So when I'm driving up to a junction that's already green and I'm waiting to turn right, I'm not legally allowed do so because it turned red, despite the sensor skipping my filter entirely just because I wasn't there the moment the light went green?

No, you may

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2012/si/332/made/en/print
2) Sub-article (1) does not apply where the driver of a vehicle intending to make a right hand turn at a junction enters the cross-hatched area for that purpose.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

There is no distinction in ROTR and (I'm fairly sure) in law between the first set of lights and 'repeater' lights. The ROTR is absolutely clear on red lights - you have to stop;

Seriously, the Rotor are not laws, just have a read of them.

AndrewJRenko

Stark wrote: »

Illegal to turn left or right at any traffic light controlled junction in that case as to turn left or right, you have to first go through a green light to enter the junction, and then exit through the red repeater light for the side road.

DaveyDave wrote: »

So when I'm driving up to a junction that's already green and I'm waiting to turn right, I'm not legally allowed do so because it turned red, despite the sensor skipping my filter entirely just because I wasn't there the moment the light went green?

Here's the exact wording of the law from the link kindly provided by idleeater above;

Traffic lights


30. (1) Where traffic sign number RTS 001, RTS 002, RTS 003, RTS 004 or RTS 013 (referred to in these Regulations as ‘traffic lights’) is provided, a person shall not drive a vehicle past the traffic lights, or past traffic sign number RRM 017 (stop line) where such sign is provided in association with the traffic lights when the red lamp of the traffic light is illuminated.

TheChizler

Don't tell us you're seriously arguing that you think that if you get caught by the secondary lights you should stop in front of them and wait for them to go green again? Even if it means blocking traffic then turning left or right from the perpendicular road?

I guess they should stop anyway since if they're turning left or right the second set of lights for them will be red anyway... :rolleyes: (I actually have seen this happen occasionally)

There are loads of little technical quirks in law and contradictory implementations, if you were to follow them all to the letter of the law society would grind to a halt. A little common sense has to be applied, the intent of the law clearly applies to the first set of lights, near the stop line. That same common sense had to be applied again if so much time has passed that the pedestrian crossing goes green so you probably shouldn't barge through.

AndrewJRenko

TheChizler wrote: »

Don't tell us you're seriously arguing that you think that if you get caught by the secondary lights you should stop in front of them and wait for them to go green again? Even if it means blocking traffic then turning left or right from the perpendicular road?

I guess they should stop anyway since if they're turning left or right the second set of lights for them will be red anyway... :rolleyes: (I actually have seen this happen occasionally)

There are loads of little technical quirks in law and contradictory implementations, if you were to follow them all to the letter of the law society would grind to a halt. A little common sense has to be applied, the intent of the law clearly applies to the first set of lights, near the stop line.

I'm seriously argueing that you basically treat every junction as a yellow box junction - you don't enter the junction unless you know you can clear the junction without breaking the red lights.



There are people who use the excuse of 'sure it was just amber when I passed the light' as an excuse for breaking red lights. This is wrong.

Idleater

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'm seriously argueing that you basically treat every junction as a yellow box junction - you don't enter the junction unless you know you can clear the junction without breaking the red lights.

I've a sneaking suspicion that is in there somewhere, it's how I was instructed for advanced driving, maybe it was just a "good way" to control the space around you.


I commented recently on the "radioactive symbol" yellow boxes on a (T junction) roundabout near me. The whole roundabout is a yellow box, but because it was completely getting blocked, they painted the boxes. Needless to say it's only slightly improved.

Wishbone Ash

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'm seriously argueing that you basically treat every junction as a yellow box junction - you don't enter the junction unless you know you can clear the junction without breaking the red lights..

In a yellow box, a driver who wishes to turn right, may enter the box and wait for oncoming traffic to clear (providing the exit they intend to use is clear).

I have passed the driving tests in all categories and was always taught that, when waiting to turn right, you were permitted and expected to complete the manoeuvre even if the lights had turned red. I can't find it written down in any legislation although I didn't spend much time looking.

A person doing a driving test would be penalised if they waited after the light turned red. It was always said that, once you enter the junction, you are in 'control' of it and the oncoming drivers must wait even if they have a green light as their way is not clear and therefore it is not safe to proceed. (Bear in mind that a heavy articulated truck may take several seconds to clear the junction).

ED E

Can we get back to the actual near misses?

tomasrojo

Effects wrote: »

Taxi driver, just speeding up the cycle lane to avoid the traffic queue on Stephen's Green.
Can you report stuff like this?

I go that way every weekday evening and have for the last year. Just lately -- last few weeks -- motorists seem to have started using it to skip the queue with some frequency.

Effects

tomasrojo wrote: »

I go that way every weekday evening and have for the last year. Just lately -- last few weeks -- motorists seem to have started using it to skip the queue with some frequency.

I've seen it the odd time. Even cut them off once or twice.

AndrewJRenko

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

In a yellow box, a driver who wishes to turn right, may enter the box and wait for oncoming traffic to clear (providing the exit they intend to use is clear).

Provided that you don't block traffic that would otherwise be free to proceed, right?

Idleater

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Provided that you don't block traffic that would otherwise be free to proceed, right?

No. Well yes they should not block traffic that would have right of way (eg straight through traffic), but the person turning right (car/bicycle/vehicle), having proceeded through a green light (providing the exit they intend to use is clear) must wait for traffic approaching with right of way to clear. They may continue to clear the junction even if the light that they went through originally is now red.

They may however block traffic from the left / right that (eg) have a red light showing.

CramCycle

ED E wrote: »

Can we get back to the actual near misses?

MOD VOICE: 100%, so with that in mind I'll move all of the posts into a seperate thread in the morning, where people can debate it some more.