faster boarding procedure

rivegauche · 06-11-2019 4:17pm #1

https://www.t-online.de/finanzen/boerse/news/id_86753752/lufthansa-schnelleres-boarding-airline-fuehrt-wilma-system-ein.html

German text.

Lufthansa introducing new boarding procedure to get passengers seated more quickly.
Windows first, middle seat next, aisle finaly.
supposedly the only obvious way to refine this further is to call rows alternately, odd and even.
Perhaps Germans might dutifully obey these rules but other nationalities won't.

PhilOssophy · 06-11-2019 4:25pm

What are you in such a hurry for? Given Irish people's ineptitude at anything organised (e.g. green men, red lights, taking their thrash with them from the cinema, etc) I can see it being chaos in the airport.

rivegauche · 06-11-2019 4:30pm

I'd guess Lufthansa work from airbridges more than Ryanair/Aer Lingus and the turnaround times hurt them.

goingnowhere · 06-11-2019 4:32pm

This has been known for decades, boarding window first is obvious

Watch how quickly people on business routes board, no messing. Every time I see folk in row 20 panic at row 2 as to where they are in the plane.

Cookiemunster · 06-11-2019 4:41pm

How does this work for families with children?

Roger_007 · 06-11-2019 4:41pm

Why don't they board the plane from back to front for front-door only boarding and from middle to back/middle to front for two-door boarding?.........or is that just too simple?

sparrowcar · 06-11-2019 4:54pm

Roger_007 wrote: »

Why don't they board the plane from back to front for front-door only boarding and from middle to back/middle to front for two-door boarding?.........or is that just too simple?

Tail tipping restrictions sometimes but it is often done already. Depends on the aircraft.

stephenjmcd · 06-11-2019 5:05pm

Already being trialled at Gatwick

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/business-50214631

06-11-2019 5:17pm

I remember boarding a BA A380 in Johannesburg and was simply amazed at how they had got it down to a fine art. Very pleasant and cheerful gate staff jollied passengers as they arrived to gate onto rows of seats corresponding to seat on plane. I could not believe it when boarding was completed within 15 minutes of it commencing and the four engines characteristically boomed into action. Somebody had thought the system out very carefully as it simply worked flawlessly.

Creamy Goodness · 06-11-2019 5:30pm

Oblig. CGP Grey video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAHbLRjF0vo

Locker10a · 07-11-2019 1:42am

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

Oblig. CGP Grey video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAHbLRjF0vo

Still doesn’t eliminate the issue of groups/families traveling together.
Also the crux of the issue of overhead stowage being extremely limited and not capacious enough for a cabin full of passengers with bags.
Time and time and time again I’m astonished at how quickly special or charter fights board where passengers have little to no luggage or all have a free checked bag in the hold and minimal cabin luggage. Luggage really slows it up, and if you remove it to the hold the boarding just flows and takes mere minutes, bliss !

blackwhite · 08-11-2019 10:28am

I remember flying AMS-HAM with KLM approx 5 years ago where they were doing something similar.

When you arrived at the gate you scanned your boarding pass, and were issued a numbered ticket.
Boarding was called individually on screen by number - loading from back to front, window-to-aisle.

Worked very well, and was always surprised that I haven't seen it anywhere since.

L1011 · 08-11-2019 10:49am

Gate areas in DUB aren't big enough for the multi-lane systems required to have any chance of this working basically.

Creamy Goodness · 08-11-2019 10:57am

Locker10a wrote: »

Still doesn’t eliminate the issue of groups/families traveling together.
Also the crux of the issue of overhead stowage being extremely limited and not capacious enough for a cabin full of passengers with bags.
Time and time and time again I’m astonished at how quickly special or charter fights board where passengers have little to no luggage or all have a free checked bag in the hold and minimal cabin luggage. Luggage really slows it up, and if you remove it to the hold the boarding just flows and takes mere minutes, bliss !

the whole point of the video is to illustrate that proper boarding in a timely manner is part of a utopia and no matter what we won't have that. It's quite tongue in cheek also and not meant to be 100% fact.

blackwhite · 08-11-2019 12:33pm

L1011 wrote: »

Gate areas in DUB aren't big enough for the multi-lane systems required to have any chance of this working basically.

There's no multi-lane system needed.

AMS managed it with a single boarding lane - with screens displaying the boarding sequence numbers to come up.
Simple, but dependent on passengers paying attention to the screen, and to the piece of paper in their hand - worked fine on a flight that seemed to be nearly 100% business/commuter flyers - not so sure how well it would work on bucket & spade routes.

PhilOssophy · 08-11-2019 12:42pm

Which is grand until somebody needs to help their mother/granny/child onto the plane.

munchkin_utd · 08-11-2019 12:46pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Which is grand until somebody needs to help their mother/granny/child onto the plane.

if people were to read the original text, they'd see that its not simply window passengers but window passengers and companions - which makes sense as they'll stow luggage and sit at the same time, and takes care of the kids and granny issue too

Group 3 - Economy Class passengers with a window seat and companions
Group 4 - Economy Class passengers with middle seats and companions
Group 5 - Economy Class passengers with aisle seats

https://www.lufthansa.com/de/en/boarding

GreeBo · 08-11-2019 12:48pm

Will boarding window seats first actually speed things up?
Most of the problem that I see is people blocking the aisle as the put baggage overhead, dont see how this fixes this?

Creamy Goodness · 08-11-2019 12:48pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

if people were to read the original text, they'd see that its not simply window passengers but window passengers and companions - which makes sense as they'll stow luggage and sit at the same time, and takes care of the kids and granny issue too

in fairness, not everyone can read German from the OP's link

basill · 08-11-2019 1:26pm

These are the things I see daily....

- Up down, up down, excuse me as I jump over you and need to go back into the overhead bin for an absolutely essential item that cannot be left for a short period of time.
- Seat change requests at door 1L to the senior holding up everyone behind and the inevitable explanation (repeated multiple times) that she doesn't have a passenger list till near the end so won't know which seats are free till then
- People that manage to misplace their boarding pass between the gate and the aircraft or have it buried so deep in a bag that they are in need of stepping back onto jetbridge to have a rumble.
- Use of the toilet during boarding resulting in people walking against the flow on a single aisle aircraft.
- Standing in the aisle and not stepping in to allow people to go past as they sort themselves out
- Runners sent ahead - generally also with a bag in the hold and one of the group is sent ahead to try and delay the aircraft so that the rest can wander up when it suits.

Until the above gets sorted then I don't think it matters which way you board to be quite frank. Much of it comes down to personal decency.

trellheim · 08-11-2019 1:30pm

very selective thinking and is welded to jetways as a concept. FR board like a shot with priority boarding, combing the queue in advance, no jetways, front and back boarding

put a jetway in and it slows down tremendously

L1011 · 08-11-2019 1:34pm

blackwhite wrote: »

There's no multi-lane system needed.

AMS managed it with a single boarding lane - with screens displaying the boarding sequence numbers to come up.
Simple, but dependent on passengers paying attention to the screen, and to the piece of paper in their hand - worked fine on a flight that seemed to be nearly 100% business/commuter flyers - not so sure how well it would work on bucket & spade routes.

We know from experience that absolutely nobody obeys boarding groups in DUB without lane barriers, though. Aer Lingus dropped them for a reason.

Tabnabs · 08-11-2019 1:39pm

The only way to really speed up the process is just an idea on a drawing board at Airbus currently.

trellheim · 08-11-2019 1:48pm

ah the Thunderbird 2 boarding strategy , for added bonus add parachutes to the plug and the plane doesnt even have to land

blackwhite · 08-11-2019 1:52pm

L1011 wrote: »

We know from experience that absolutely nobody obeys boarding groups in DUB without lane barriers, though. Aer Lingus dropped them for a reason.

Nobody obeyed them because they were never enforced to begin with.
If people were consistently turned back when trying to board out of turn it wouldn't take long for "group learning" to take effect.

The AMS system issued a numbered ticket and had a "turnstyle" type boarding gate. When your number is displayed then you could scan the ticket and board - if you tried to board out of turn then the turnstyle stays closed.

No idea if they still have it there for any gates - this was circa Feb/March 2015 when I experienced it.

Actually - found this online about it when they started trialling in 2013. Boarded all window seats first - from back to front; then middle seats, back to front; and finally aisle seats back to front.
Seems to have disappeared sometime in 2015 - reports of software problems.

https://news.klm.com/klm-introduceert-innovatieve-boarding-methode-en/

L1011 · 08-11-2019 1:57pm

Turning people back from a combined lane / screen call system would lead to arguments and even further delays. Lanes are the only way to do it.

Remember that people are still unable to remember the liquids rule!

Roger_007 · 08-11-2019 2:24pm

Tabnabs wrote: »

The only way to really speed up the process is just an idea on a drawing board at Airbus currently.

In unrelated news, police have raided the offices of the Airbus design team and discovered a large stash of drugs.:P

blackwhite · 08-11-2019 3:23pm

L1011 wrote: »

Turning people back from a combined lane / screen call system would lead to arguments and even further delays. Lanes are the only way to do it.

Remember that people are still unable to remember the liquids rule!

And yet it worked perfectly when I actually saw it in action.

ednwireland · 08-11-2019 3:27pm

its not the boarding its the rest of the airports that needs sorting out, last two trips to uk on the ferry.

no ryanair or easyjet flights for 18 months (2 aer lingus and 1 aegean) my life is so much more pleasant

un5byh7sqpd2x0 · 08-11-2019 5:06pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

if people were to read the original text, they'd see that its not simply window passengers but window passengers and companions - which makes sense as they'll stow luggage and sit at the same time, and takes care of the kids and granny issue too

https://www.lufthansa.com/de/en/boarding

But But But Outrage!

L1011 · 08-11-2019 6:39pm

blackwhite wrote: »

And yet it worked perfectly when I actually saw it in action.

And in a quite significant number of flights (has Gold Circle at the time) I never saw it be anything other than an utter mess.

blackwhite · 08-11-2019 6:58pm

L1011 wrote: »

And in a quite significant number of flights (has Gold Circle at the time) I never saw it be anything other than an utter mess.

EI never implemented anything as structured, or as controlled, as the KLM model.

EI would call for a large range of numbers (up to 54 PAX at a time), and then immediately ignore it. I saw it happen for plenty of flights as well, and could see exactly how it was set to fail from the start due to poor implementation.

Much as how they often now ignore people using the priority boarding or AerClub lines now.

Half-arsed, unenforced measures have a strange tendency to fail.

L1011 · 08-11-2019 7:05pm

blackwhite wrote: »

EI never implemented anything as structured, or as controlled, as the KLM model.

EI would call for a large range of numbers (up to 54 PAX at a time), and then immediately ignore it. I saw it happen for plenty of flights as well, and could see exactly how it was set to fail from the start due to poor implementation.

Much as how they often now ignore people using the priority boarding or AerClub lines now.

Half-arsed, unenforced measures have a strange tendency to fail.

Window/middle/aisle is going to have up to 70 in a group

Seriously, this will not work in DUB without lanes and there is no space for lanes. When you can't hyper-control boarding it's shown that complete random boarding is as fast as anything else.

If you really need to cut boarding times, bring back free hold luggage

Locker10a · 08-11-2019 7:11pm

blackwhite wrote: »

EI never implemented anything as structured, or as controlled, as the KLM model.

EI would call for a large range of numbers (up to 54 PAX at a time), and then immediately ignore it. I saw it happen for plenty of flights as well, and could see exactly how it was set to fail from the start due to poor implementation.

Much as how they often now ignore people using the priority boarding or AerClub lines now.

Half-arsed, unenforced measures have a strange tendency to fail.

EI found the priority followed by general boarding is the fastest method, this was also demonstrated in the video as being one of the faster methods.
It also removes the arguments about who’s bag fits inside the the cabin and who’s doesn’t. If you board by groups, those in the last group won’t have bag space, I recall the boarding groups were assigned based on seat row number. Now it’s more simple, a voluntary gate bag announcement is made, then AerClub/Priority are called, followed by general boarding and locker space is first come first serve until it’s gone.
This also entices the purchase of priority boarding, an additional revenue stream for the airline

Locker10a · 08-11-2019 7:13pm

L1011 wrote: »

If you really need to cut boarding times, bring back free hold luggage

This

blackwhite · 08-11-2019 7:25pm

L1011 wrote: »

Window/middle/aisle is going to have up to 70 in a group

Seriously, this will not work in DUB without lanes and there is no space for lanes. When you can't hyper-control boarding it's shown that complete random boarding is as fast as anything else.

If you really need to cut boarding times, bring back free hold luggage

Did you read the detail of what KLM did. It wasn't grouping, it was issuing individual boarding order numbers to passengers as they arrived at the gate, with instructions to take a seat until their number was called on the screen.

When "Now Boarding" shows number 1, it also stated for 2/3/4 (can't remember how many, but was certainly no more than 5 numbers at a time) to "prepare to board". Numbers were in sequential order, with a couple of gaps for no-shows.

Worked smoothly and very efficiently, because it was very clear that you weren't getting through until your number was called, and so everyone stayed put until their number was getting close. A few "hoverers" waiting for their number, but no scrum at the gate and nobody trying to board out of turn

Strumms · 08-11-2019 7:43pm

It’s not practical I think.. while it can be proven to work in a scenario of 180 single, mobile and efficient not hard of thinking people...

You have the anomaly’s of families with small kids who need help, oaps or people with a mobility issue who need assistance etc..idiots etc... it’s something when thought about works ok if every passenger is a fit, healthy and mobile but the mixtures of client and so on, I can’t see it being practical.

L1011 · 08-11-2019 7:44pm

How much extra manpower does they require and how do you differentiate who is arriving at what gate without Schiphols now gone corrals at each gate?

Won't work in DUB. Can't.

Stovepipe · 08-11-2019 10:13pm

trellheim wrote: »

very selective thinking and is welded to jetways as a concept. FR board like a shot with priority boarding, combing the queue in advance, no jetways, front and back boarding

put a jetway in and it slows down tremendously

My recent experience of Ryanair's boarding skills went like this: aircraft not yet on stand but pax called for boarding, priority boarding first, so everyone stands up and queues. The aircraft arrives a few minutes later and parks and soon begins to unload. After about a minute, the queue is allowed to descend the stairs, until the entire stairwell is full. Pax are getting off the aircraft at the usual pace, but roadworks on the ramp are making life difficult, as people have to snake around between barriers, and avoid getting killed by vehicles. So, ten or so minutes go by and people start complaining about being stood in the stairwell. two of them are on crutches and are feeling the pain of standing on a stairs. They are given a stiff ignoring by staff. Another few minutes pass and we are then streamed out to the aircraft but confusion immediately reigns because people get into the wrong queue or go in the wrong direction around the roadworks and have to be picked out and sent to the rear of the aircraft, in the middle of all the hassle of the repair work to the ramp, vehicles and ramp workers not withstanding. The queue for the front of the aircraft is tightly packed into a steel meshed walk way because of the large hole in the ramp and then a gob****e of a tug driver decides to swing a towbar around at shin height, scattering people until he is accosted by one of his own supervisors. Thereafter, boarding goes quickly but there are several delays getting airborne (ATC, not Ryanair) and we get away...not FR's finest day on the ramp.

blackwhite · 09-11-2019 1:09am

L1011 wrote: »

How much extra manpower does they require and how do you differentiate who is arriving at what gate without Schiphols now gone corrals at each gate?

Won't work in DUB. Can't.

There were no corrals at the gate where they did it. Plenty of signs explaining you needed to scan pass at one of 2/3 machines to get a ticket. I think it was 2 staff manning the gates to monitor

Locker10a · 09-11-2019 1:50pm

Stovepipe wrote: »

My recent experience of Ryanair's boarding skills went like this: aircraft not yet on stand but pax called for boarding, priority boarding first, so everyone stands up and queues. The aircraft arrives a few minutes later and parks and soon begins to unload. After about a minute, the queue is allowed to descend the stairs, until the entire stairwell is full. Pax are getting off the aircraft at the usual pace, but roadworks on the ramp are making life difficult, as people have to snake around between barriers, and avoid getting killed by vehicles. So, ten or so minutes go by and people start complaining about being stood in the stairwell. two of them are on crutches and are feeling the pain of standing on a stairs. They are given a stiff ignoring by staff. Another few minutes pass and we are then streamed out to the aircraft but confusion immediately reigns because people get into the wrong queue or go in the wrong direction around the roadworks and have to be picked out and sent to the rear of the aircraft, in the middle of all the hassle of the repair work to the ramp, vehicles and ramp workers not withstanding. The queue for the front of the aircraft is tightly packed into a steel meshed walk way because of the large hole in the ramp and then a gob****e of a tug driver decides to swing a towbar around at shin height, scattering people until he is accosted by one of his own supervisors. Thereafter, boarding goes quickly but there are several delays getting airborne (ATC, not Ryanair) and we get away...not FR's finest day on the ramp.

Ahh the classic “hurry up and wait” method. Probably one of the worst things about flying Ryanair

Chris_5339762 · 09-11-2019 2:40pm

I had Flightradar on the other day while sitting in the lounge in Cork waiting to fly to Budapest. The incoming flight was on the way. "Go To Gate" comes up and people scatter in all directions... on Flightradar the plane was still over Wales.

PhilOssophy · 11-11-2019 12:10pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I had Flightradar on the other day while sitting in the lounge in Cork waiting to fly to Budapest. The incoming flight was on the way. "Go To Gate" comes up and people scatter in all directions... on Flightradar the plane was still over Wales.

Yeah but it makes sense to have people there ready to board rather than buying duty free, eating, drinking pints.
If not you'd end up waiting for these eejits.
Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

rivegauche · 11-11-2019 12:18pm

I will continue doing my bit to help by waiting a distance from the departure gate but in view and then boarding near last while putting my carry on baggage at my feet while seated. You're welcome!

Locker10a · 11-11-2019 3:03pm

rivegauche wrote: »

I will continue doing my bit to help by waiting a distance from the departure gate but in view and then boarding near last while putting my carry on baggage at my feet while seated. You're welcome!

I do this, but many people don’t have baggage that can fit under the seat hence the delays

Blut2 · 11-11-2019 10:10pm

Locker10a wrote: »

I do this, but many people don’t have baggage that can fit under the seat hence the delays

Its understandable queing if you have a large carry-on that has to go in the overhead bin. But its the people with no carry-on luggage, or just small backpacks, that queue for 30min to board that always amaze me on EI/FR flights. They're really surprisingly common.

I can never figure out the thinking that they'd prefer to stand in line queing, to then spend longer in the cramped economy seat, instead of sitting in a (relatively) comfortable seat near the gate.

circular flexing · 13-11-2019 10:39pm

United used to board this way but they seem have ditched it sometime in 2017.

Kev11491 · 14-11-2019 12:43am

Flew from CPH to FRA last week and they had the new boarding. It was still a bit messy and genuinely couldn't tell if it was faster.

Board Walker · 20-11-2019 11:27am

Loaded front to back in Dublin last week and Boarding took almost a hour.

Loaded back to front in JFK at the weekend and took half the time as expected. Its not rocket science

Brendan Bendar · 24-11-2019 10:00am

Interesting thread and good observations however........... doomed to failure certainly at DUB.

Why Bren ...whoooy?

The Irish ‘mucker’ lads that’s whoooy.

You know the type, usually in a group goin over for the Liverpewell gayam or Arsenal.

Ramble up from the bar to the gate following about 6 final calls, three of them usually have left their wallets/passports/boarding passes/ rucksacks in the bar.One fella has gone for a piss and is now headed for the wrong boarding area, another three NOW decide it’s time for a piss, and the auld “Aaah take yer time Jem, Dey can’t go without us”

“Where’s Billy lads ,he has my boarding card”

Lookit.... ask the lad who works out there.... they will tell you that scenario is not fantasy.

Won’t work with Pat... make no mistake there.

faster boarding procedure

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