Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Letwin_Larry · 25-10-2019 05:58PM

Strazdas wrote: »

Most people in EU states blame their own governments for the country's problems.

A quite bizarre situation has developed in the UK where the population are blaming the EU for Britain's problems (even obviously idiotic ideas such as the EU is the cause of non-EU immigration).

it's as if they are thinking, "if only we could free ourselves of the EU, then we could return to those glorious days of Empire"
kinda like Sean Quinn before he took to gambling on CFDs

prawnsambo · 25-10-2019 05:59PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Sir Humphrey: Minister, Britain has had the same foreign policy objective for at least the last five hundred years: to create a disunited Europe. In that cause we have fought with the Dutch against the Spanish, with the Germans against the French, with the French and Italians against the Germans, and with the French against the Germans and Italians. Divide and rule, you see. Why should we change now, when it's worked so well?

Hacker: That's all ancient history, surely?

Sir Humphrey: Yes, and current policy. We had to break the whole thing up, so we had to get inside. We tried to break it up from the outside, but that wouldn't work. Now that we're inside we can make a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing — set the Germans against the French, the French against the Italians, the Italians against the Dutch... The Foreign Office is terribly pleased; it's just like old times.

I was reminded about that whilst reading those posts. It was (and is) such a sharp insight into British government; both permanent and elected.

Itssoeasy · 25-10-2019 06:06PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

I was reminded about that whilst reading those posts. It was (and is) such a sharp insight into British government; both permanent and elected.

Yes, minister and yes, prime minister are like a documentary not a tv series.

hotmail.com · 25-10-2019 06:10PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, yes, but the point being made is that they do not know, nor understand, what it is that this 'Europe' is that they wish to be out of - is it the EU, the ECJ, the CU, the SM, 'Brussels' and its undemocratic bureaucrats (although they have no trouble with their own 'loyal Civil Servants'), or indeed the ECHR that insist on those troublesome requirements to treat others humanely.

The fact that the vast majority of voters had little understanding of how the EU actually works, and what parts of political life comes under the EU competency, goes to prove that an uniformed electorate should never be asked such a far reaching question.

A 2nd referendum would address this point, at least to some degree (assuming it is not conducted illegally).

The level of knowledge on these details would be poor among Remainers as well.

Anyway, the Leavers simply don't agree with you. They want Britain out and are willing to suffer the consequences. The arguments you're making about the ECHR isn't persuasive enough to change their minds I'm afraid.

Itssoeasy · 25-10-2019 06:15PM

Hacker: Europe is a community of nations, dedicated towards one goal.
Sir Humphrey: Oh, ha ha ha.
Hacker: May we share the joke, Humphrey?
Sir Humphrey: Oh Minister, let's look at this objectively. It is a game played for national interests, and always was. Why do you suppose we went into it?
Hacker: To strengthen the brotherhood of free Western nations.
Sir Humphrey: Oh really. We went in to screw the French by splitting them off from the Germans.
Hacker: So why did the French go into it, then?
Sir Humphrey: Well, to protect their inefficient farmers from commercial competition.
Hacker: That certainly doesn't apply to the Germans.
Sir Humphrey: No, no. They went in to cleanse themselves of genocide and apply for readmission to the human race.
Hacker: I never heard such appalling cynicism! At least the small nations didn't go into it for selfish reasons.
Sir Humphrey: Oh really? Luxembourg is in it for the perks; the capital of the EEC, all that foreign money pouring in.
Hacker: Very sensible central location.
Sir Humphrey: With the administration in Brussels and the Parliament in Strasbourg? Minister, it's like having the House of Commons in Swindon and the Civil Service in Kettering!

I doubt this scene from yes minister is that wide of the mark even now.

serfboard · 25-10-2019 06:38PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

I was reminded about that whilst reading those posts. It was (and is) such a sharp insight into British government; both permanent and elected.

It's amazing how relevant Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minister are nowadays - it just shows that the mentality hasn't changed.

Leroy42 · 25-10-2019 06:53PM

Field east wrote: »

Cannot agree with you. If we are back in the previous centenary , then yes I would be in agreement when the media ie TV station owners, newsreel and radio station owners were in total control as to what was fed to the public. But now we have got loads of platforms to communicate with the public and the traditional media have no control over. By way of example - look how Trump built up his followers on Facebook and completely by passing mainstream media.
The opposition had the means to counteract thes e statements but choose not to do so. Maybe it’s a cultural thing or did the uK run out of time to analyze what was being said.

Completely untrue. Trump was given massive free media coverage both before he announced his candidacy and even more so afterwards.

His entire speeches, including simply waiting (sometimes for over an hour with a camera pointed at a empty podium with only the Trump MAGA sign) were shown live and repeated.

That is even before we mention that Fox News are basically his mouth piece, 24/7 and the largest media TV newschannel in the US.

Back to brexit.

Tell me how · 25-10-2019 06:53PM

serfboard wrote: »

It's amazing how relevant Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minister are nowadays - it just shows that the mentality hasn't changed.

I think the representation shown in 'The Thick of it' is a truer reflection of modern day politics. Less clipped accents, lunches at the club and knighted permanent secretaries and more Phd advisers who need advice on society, profane ridden communications managers and 85% of effort going in to thinking about leaking, actually leaking or trying to hide/find the leak.

theological · 25-10-2019 07:01PM

Strazdas wrote: »

Most people in EU states blame their own governments for the country's problems.

A quite bizarre situation has developed in the UK where the population are blaming the EU for Britain's problems (even obviously idiotic ideas such as the EU is the cause of non-EU immigration).

Are you seriously suggesting that there are no drawbacks to being a member of the European Union?

I'd understand if you said the benefits of being a member of the European Union are better than the drawbacks but it is incorrect to argue that one can't point out any flaw in the European Union especially when member states have pooled a lot of sovereignty. (I'd argue losing control over their own affairs but I'll use the more favourable language).

From my standpoint the UK is perfectly entitled to decide to go a different way. They decided this 3 years ago and MPs are still doggedly deciding to undermine this verdict and undermine the democratic principle of losers consent.

This needs to be done. Either MPs need to work towards implementing the withdrawal bill or the UK needs a general election at the earliest opportunity.

robinph · 25-10-2019 07:08PM

theological wrote: »

From my standpoint the UK is perfectly entitled to decide to go a different way. They decided this 3 years ago and MPs are still doggedly deciding to undermine this verdict and undermine the democratic principle of losers consent.

This needs to be done. Either MPs need to work towards implementing the withdrawal bill or the UK needs a general election at the earliest opportunity.

I'd say that parliament has done a pretty good job of implementing the opinion of the public as requested by at 52/48 poll where the request of the 52 wasn't defined. That its been on a knife edge of will they won't they for the last year is pretty much spot on with matching the will of the people where it is totally unknown what the public really wants.

MrMusician18 · 25-10-2019 07:12PM

Strazdas wrote: »

Most people in EU states blame their own governments for the country's problems.

A quite bizarre situation has developed in the UK where the population are blaming the EU for Britain's problems (even obviously idiotic ideas such as the EU is the cause of non-EU immigration).

I don't think that is entirely true.. There is an EU directive on Family Reunification from third countries for example.

MrMusician18 · 25-10-2019 07:18PM

theological wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that there are no drawbacks to being a member of the European Union?

I'd understand if you said the benefits of being a member of the European Union are better than the drawbacks but it is incorrect to argue that one can't point out any flaw in the European Union especially when member states have pooled a lot of sovereignty. (I'd argue losing control over their own affairs but I'll use the more favourable language).

From my standpoint the UK is perfectly entitled to decide to go a different way. They decided this 3 years ago and MPs are still doggedly deciding to undermine this verdict and undermine the democratic principle of losers consent.

This needs to be done. Either MPs need to work towards implementing the withdrawal bill or the UK needs a general election at the earliest opportunity.

Point out any failing or flaw of the EU and you'll be rounded on.

I have highlighted the failures of European migration policy and one clown here therefore declared that I wanted to see people drown in the Mediterranean.

That's what you are up against

CelticRambler · 25-10-2019 07:46PM

theological wrote: »

From my standpoint the UK is perfectly entitled to decide to go a different way. They decided this 3 years ago and MPs are still doggedly deciding to undermine this verdict and undermine the democratic principle of losers consent.

The UK decided to "go a different way" long before the glorified opinion poll three years ago, with their opt-outs and rebate and other special terms&conditions. But (a) none of that was ever recognised as the generous gift it was from the EU to the UK; and (b) in the meantime, the UK chose to implement EU directives in ways that deviated from so many other member states, e.g. not restricting freedom of movement, or adding extra layers to food safety regulations.

As was mentioned above, the British people have been encouraged to blame the EU for British problems that were entirely created by the action - or inaction - of successive British governments.

Unfortunately, there is no sign that (as a whole) the British people have adjusted their view on this. The delay to "getting Brexit done" is 100% entirely and completely due to the MPs in Westminster failing to agree between themselves how to manage the process - British MPs elected by British voters in British constituencies according to a dysfunctional protocol that the British electorate refused to change in their last referendum.

GM228 · 25-10-2019 08:36PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, yes, but the point being made is that they do not know, nor understand, what it is that this 'Europe' is that they wish to be out of - is it the EU, the ECJ, the CU, the SM, 'Brussels' and its undemocratic bureaucrats (although they have no trouble with their own 'loyal Civil Servants'), or indeed the ECHR that insist on those troublesome requirements to treat others humanely.

The fact that the vast majority of voters had little understanding of how the EU actually works, and what parts of political life comes under the EU competency, goes to prove that an uniformed electorate should never be asked such a far reaching question.

A 2nd referendum would address this point, at least to some degree (assuming it is not conducted illegally).

+1, a 2011 Eurobarometer report found 82% of UK respondents knew little or nothing about the EU, a 2015 report found UK citizens knew the least about the EU out of all the EU member states.

No doubt those numbers may have risen directly due to Brexit in recent time I would say they are still a good indication of the UKs knowledge of the EU.

Oh and on the point of the ECHR and the ECtHR I would guess many in the UK are of the opinion that it is just another charter and institution of the EU, little do they (probably) realise.

SeaBreezes · 25-10-2019 08:52PM

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Point out any failing or flaw of the EU and you'll be rounded on.

I have highlighted the failures of European migration policy and one clown here therefore declared that I wanted to see people drown in the Mediterranean.

That's what you are up against

I would be interested in the flaws... I've heard a lot of untruths about the problem with the EU but I imagine posters such as yourselves have your homework done and I'm genuinely curious. What are these disadvantages?

Enzokk · 25-10-2019 09:14PM

A penny for the thought of those Labour MPs that have declared they would back Johnson's deal,

Fears rise over post-Brexit workers’ rights and regulations

The British government is planning to diverge from the EU on regulation and workers’ rights after Brexit, despite its pledge to maintain a “level playing field” in prime minister Boris Johnson’s deal, according to an official paper shared by ministers this week.

The government paper drafted by Dexeu, the Brexit department, with input from Downing Street stated that the UK was open to significant divergence, even though Brussels is insisting on comparable regulatory provisions.

This paragraph seems to sum up why any Labour MP backing this deal should hang their head in shame,

In a passage that could alarm Labour MPs who have backed the Brexit bill, the leaked government document also said the drafting of workers’ rights and environmental protection commitments “leaves room for interpretation”.

The paper appears to contradict comments made by Mr Johnson on Wednesday when he said the UK was committed to “the highest possible standards” for workers’ rights and environmental standards.

Kate Hooey was on Newstalk this morning and said on Brexit she believed strongly that MPs should honour the referendum result and she was putting country over party in this case. I wish someone would ask her what about the above or the loss of GDP in Johnson's deal is putting the country over her party who is supposed to protect workers? More like ideology over sense in her case.

GM228 · 25-10-2019 09:20PM

Leaked Dexeu report on workers rights showing a possible divergence on workers rights from those of the EU, is it really a surprise?

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1187815316228919297?s=19

So much for the level playing field.

Edit: Enzokk beat me to it.

GM228 · 25-10-2019 09:29PM

Land of unicorns update.

This made me laugh, Lance Forman reckons 6 days is plenty of time to negotiate a free trade deal and that no deal is the best deal for the UK/Ireland/EU, bless him he even made the trip to the WTO in Geneva to find out some info.

https://twitter.com/LanceForman/status/1187817256740446209?s=19

Expect that Tweet to vanish anytime.

Back to the real world.

Hummm:-

https://twitter.com/adamparsons/status/1187828807513890819?s=19

Which Government (France perhaps?) and why?

An Ciarraioch · 25-10-2019 09:29PM

SeaBreezes wrote: »

I would be interested in the flaws... I've heard a lot of untruths about the problem with the EU but I imagine posters such as yourselves have your homework done and I'm genuinely curious. What are these disadvantages?

If we take the French approach to the EU, Macron's current policy is to effectively pull up the drawbridge, vetoing any accession talks with the Balkan states, and concentrating on deeper integration among the 27, whereas most other members are taking the exact opposite perspective, of a gradual renewed expansion within a decade, even if that means maintaining the institutional status quo.

More broadly speaking, and perhaps not exactly a flaw, but the progress of member economies depends on how national governments utilise EU funds, so Ireland, Slovakia and Lithuania among others, have performed strongly in recent years, but Italy, Portugal, Romania and Bulgaria have stagnated.

MrMusician18 · 25-10-2019 10:32PM

SeaBreezes wrote: »

I would be interested in the flaws... I've heard a lot of untruths about the problem with the EU but I imagine posters such as yourselves have your homework done and I'm genuinely curious. What are these disadvantages?

The one size fits all (really just Germany and France) monetary policy.
The Strasbourg parliament
The low/no salary taxes of EU staff wages. They do have a community tax but it's nowhere near the level of taxation in the Member States.
The failure in policy that lead to Dieselgate

dePeatrick · 25-10-2019 10:39PM

GM228 wrote: »

+1, a 2011 Eurobarometer report found 82% of UK respondents knew little or nothing about the EU, a 2015 report found UK citizens knew the least about the EU out of all the EU member states.

No doubt those numbers may have risen directly due to Brexit in recent time I would say they are still a good indication of the UKs knowledge of the EU.

Oh and on the point of the ECHR and the ECtHR I would guess many in the UK are of the opinion that it is just another charter and institution of the EU, little do they (probably) realise.

I'll see your 6 and raise you 93

https://smallbusinessprices.co.uk/remain-eu/

99 reasons to stay in EU.

Strazdas · 25-10-2019 10:51PM

MrMusician18 wrote: »

The one size fits all (really just Germany and France) monetary policy.
The Strasbourg parliament
The low/no salary taxes of EU staff wages. They do have a community tax but it's nowhere near the level of taxation in the Member States.
The failure in policy that lead to Dieselgate

The EU Commission and European Parliament has only around 40,000 employees in total - reading the Telegraph and Express, you would think the figure is ten times that number.

The UK civil service by comparison has 425,000 employees.

prawnsambo · 25-10-2019 10:54PM

Nothing to do with brexit, or is it?

MrMusician18 · 25-10-2019 11:06PM

Strazdas wrote: »

The EU Commission and European Parliament has only around 40,000 employees in total - reading the Telegraph and Express, you would think the figure is ten times that number.

The UK civil service by comparison has 425,000 employees.

So their few number should make them exempt from normal taxation? Entry level for graduates into the EU civil service is AD5, and that has take home pay of €46,800 + allowances. To put that in context, you'd have to earning almost €70k in Ireland for that kind of salary.

P Flynn was right, it's a well paid job.

prawnsambo · 25-10-2019 11:15PM

MrMusician18 wrote: »

So their few number should make them exempt from normal taxation? Entry level for graduates into the EU civil service is AD5, and that has take home pay of €46,800 + allowances. To put that in context, you'd have to earning almost €70k in Ireland for that kind of salary.

P Flynn was right, it's a well paid job.

Your 'entry level' is not some wet behind the ears clerical officer tbf.

First Up · 25-10-2019 11:18PM

MrMusician18 wrote:

P Flynn was right, it's a well paid job.

What's your problem - did you not get one?

Your list of objections to the EU are noted; people can make up their own minds if they are too high a price to pay for peace, prosperity and the most advanced societies on the planet.

prawnsambo · 25-10-2019 11:30PM

Being a bit selective with the salaries and tax rates too. Assistant secretary AST/SC1 start on about €27,600 and tax rates range on a progressive sliding scale from 8% to 45%.

MrMusician18 · 25-10-2019 11:34PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Your 'entry level' is not some wet behind the ears clerical officer tbf.

They're not geniuses either, that justifies a salary of the equivalent the Irish AP grade.

And yeah, these people are wet behind the ears. Clerical officers in the commission (AST/SC1) start on about €38k equivalent Irish salary, minimum entry education requirement one year post secondary education diploma.

AD5 is graduate entry, pretty wet imo. What is it we think they do that means they deserve such enormous salaries? And up until about 2008 they paid no tax at all!

What I find interesting is that there is no response here to this justified criticism of the EU and all that regular posters like First Up have are ad homiem attacks.

Mr.Nice Guy · 25-10-2019 11:45PM

The Dutch press on where we are with Brexit at the minute:

https://twitter.com/Royaards/status/1186617175597113344

GM228 · 25-10-2019 11:54PM

I really don't see any issue with EU staff pay and the special tax arrangements, fair play to them. Anyone who thinks otherwise it could be argued is a begrudger.

Yes EU staff don't pay normal incomel tax like the rest of us, but, they are subject to other national taxes such as VAT etc, they do pay a special Community Income Tax, this is a progressive tax which ranges between 8% and 45%, the average EU staff member pays between 12% and 25% tax. This is all provided for under the Protocol on the Privileges and Immunities of the European Communities.

There are also other deductions, for example they pay what is known as a Solidarity Levy of either 6% or 7% depending on grade, they pay a 10% pension levy, they pay a 1.7% health insurance levy, they pay a 0.1% accident insurance levy, they pay a 0.18% unemployment protection levy etc, but it is equally important to note that EU workers do receive other well paid bonuses, but their marginal tax rate can often rise above 50%.

Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

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