Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

21-10-2019 05:48PM

UK Gov wants the WAB done & dusted by Thursday. Haste alone may trip it up yet......

https://twitter.com/CommonsLeader/status/1186321565299941376?s=20

Kermit.de.frog · 21-10-2019 05:49PM

Excellent. Let's just get it done.

The UK needs to leave. We can not have another 20 years of this.

It's best they continue the debate among themselves outside the EU.

fash · 21-10-2019 05:50PM

briany wrote: »

That was his wife's car, although I agree that he should have thought about taking the sticker off. Whatever Bercow's personal views on Brexit are, he wouldn't be so stupid as to loudly proclaim his bias.

As for Bercow running a remainer enclave from the speaker's chair, I'm sure Conservative MPs are welcome to find his actions unconstitutional if they wish. The UK government's actions in trying to prorogue parliament for 5 weeks was found to be illegal. Let the UK government similarly find the speaker's actions illegal, if they can do.

Bercow spent years protecting and allowing Brexiters to speak in parliament prior to the referendum - a fact acknowledged by Peter Bone, a long standing Brexiter and beneficiary of that protection. Calling Bercow a"remainer clown" is rather stupid.

21-10-2019 05:54PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Excellent. Let's just get it done.

The UK needs to leave. We can not have another 20 years of this.

It's best they continue the debate among themselves outside the EU.

You could have 10 years of trade negotiations. Getting the WAB through is merely the beginning.

Kermit.de.frog · 21-10-2019 05:55PM

Deleted User wrote: »

You could have 10 years of trade negotiations. Getting the WAB through is merely the beginning.

At least they will be out.

That's the difference.

The trade negotiations will not be as prominent or relentlessly divisive.

Zubeneschamali · 21-10-2019 05:58PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

We can not have another 20 years of this.

As a matter of fact, we can.

Norway first applied to join in 1962. Then in 1967. They had a Join referendum in 1972, which failed. They had another in 1994 which also failed.

But their application for membership is officially not withdrawn, so they have been in the process of joining for a lot more than 20 years.

The UK could take as long to leave, or get frozen in the act, or revoke Article 50 and never leave.

And all of those would be cheaper for everyone than Johnson's proposed Brexit.

Water John · 21-10-2019 05:58PM

Kermit if you're that worried about Brexit dominating the news, Sky News have now launched a Brexit Free News Channel.

trellheim · 21-10-2019 05:58PM

At least they will be out.

That's the difference.

The trade negotiations will not be as prominent or relentlessly divisive.

ERG have been wetting themselves to strike FTAs with a free hand. Why do you think that is ? Its giving the headbangers free rein. And if you think that cant be done by relaxing some inconvenient regulations like workers rights and so on your going to miss the even larger protests and arguments

Letwin_Larry · 21-10-2019 06:02PM

looks like we've gone from Super Saturday, to Manic Monday and now Titanic Tuesday

marno21 · 21-10-2019 06:14PM

fash wrote: »

Bercow spent years protecting and allowing Brexiters to speak in parliament prior to the referendum - a fact acknowledged by Peter Bone, a long standing Brexiter and beneficiary of that protection. Calling Bercow a"remainer clown" is rather stupid.

Indeed. Bercow is fair, and law abiding. Neither of which are qualities currently attributable to the Johnson Government.

Headshot · 21-10-2019 06:15PM

This honestly made me laugh how they are justifying not releasing a economic analysis

"My starting point is that agreeing the Withdrawal Agreement is self-evidently in our economic interest. It would bring an end to the damaging uncertainty and delay of the past years, and allow businesses to get on with taking decisions, including around recruitment and investment. That is very much the message that I heard from both business leaders and my fellow finance ministers at the IMF Annual Meetings in Washington last week. All welcomed the Agreement."

"My last point is to say that trust in democracy and bringing an end to the division that has characterised this debate over the past three years, is something that cannot be measured solely through spreadsheets or impact assessments, important though they are. Respecting the referendum and closing this chapter so we can focus on delivering growth and the public services people deserve, is the right thing to do for our country."

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/840853/211019_CX_to_TSC_Chair.pdf

Essentially forget about numbers, who needs that, it's evident that brexit will be good

Who are they trying to fool with this absolute garage of lies.

Of course The Tories will be insulated from the damage of Brexit as they sit upon their ivory towers, how anyone can vote for Tories is beyond me

LeinsterDub · 21-10-2019 06:30PM

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

looks like we've gone from Super Saturday, to Manic Monday and now Titanic Tuesday

Reminds me of a caller to J'OB last week
https://twitter.com/Hyena_1953/status/1185476092158791680

serfboard · 21-10-2019 06:35PM

Interesting research carried out by an accountancy firm about debt levels in the UK:

UHY wrote:

Seaside towns dominate [the] rankings for the areas with the highest levels of personal insolvencies in the UK

Worth remembering that there are 120 seaside constituencies in the UK - 100 of them voted for Brexit.

UHY wrote:

these seaside towns are still a long way from recovering from the decades of contraction in their traditional coastal industries such as tourism, ship-building and fishing.

Think of these towns in the 1950s - absolutely booming and packed full of tourists. Then think of people who grew up during that time knowing nothing but booming local economies. Once cheap jet travel was invented and developed, that was the end of that, and nothing has been done to replace those lost jobs.

There was one place that stood out that was not a seaside town:

UHY wrote:

Stoke-on-Trent took the top spot for the highest personal insolvencies in the UK

Stoke-on-Trent voted to leave by three to one.

Another place that had a booming local industry (pottery) which has now seriously declined. And even one of the non-pottery industries, has shed thousands of jobs:

Wikipedia wrote:

In the 1980s nearly 9,000 workers were employed at the [Michelin] plant; in 2006 about 1,200 worked there.

Of course, the kicking out against London that resulted in people voting to Leave is not news on this thread. However their woefully-misplaced thinking that things couldn't get worse for them is difficult to contemplate. It's also sad to think that they belived in slimy, sleazely, Tory used-car salesmen, who had done so much to cause the problems in the first place.

spacecoyote · 21-10-2019 06:37PM

Duane Dibbley wrote: »

I dont agree with this.

I think most English people still want Brexit. I dont believe they see the EU the same way Irish and People from the EU mainland.

You may well be right, but one word in your statement is pertinent, English

Polling in Wales, Scotland & NI shows they don't want Brexit, with even the Welsh starting to talk independence. In depth data reviews showed that Welsh speaking areas voted strongly to remain, with the Wales vote skewed by older English who have moved there.

So basically England dragging everyone down with them

21-10-2019 06:41PM

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

looks like we've gone from Super Saturday, to Manic Monday and now Titanic Tuesday

That could be quite an accurate description for BJ's WAB if the SNP come on board for any potential Customs Union type amendments.

Professor Moriarty · 21-10-2019 06:49PM

serfboard wrote: »

Interesting research carried out by an accountancy firm about debt levels in the UK:

Worth remembering that there are 120 seaside constituencies in the UK - 100 of them voted for Brexit.

Think of these towns in the 1950s - absolutely booming and packed full of tourists. Then think of people who grew up during that time knowing nothing but booming local economies. Once cheap jet travel was invented and developed, that was then end of that, and nothing has been done to replace those lost jobs.

There was one place that stood out that was not a seaside town:

Stoke-on-Trent voted to leave by three to one.

Another place that had a booming local industry (pottery) which has now seriously declined. And even one of the non-pottery industries, has shed thousands of jobs:

Of course, the kicking out against London that resulted in people voting to Leave is not news on this thread. However their woefully-misplaced thinking that things couldn't get worse for them is difficult to contemplate. It's also sad to think that they belived in slimy, sleazely, Tory used-car salesmen, who had done so much to cause the problems in the first place.

Excellent post.

Rjd2 · 21-10-2019 06:53PM

GM228 wrote: »

You have to admire Bercow, he is well able for what is thrown at him and gives well reasoned replies unlike others in the HoC, he will be missed when he goes.

Until their is an investigation into those bullying allegations aimed at Bercow, I really wish people would stop putting him on a pedestal.

Duane Dibbley · 21-10-2019 06:55PM

spacecoyote wrote: »

You may well be right, but one word in your statement is pertinent, English

Polling in Wales, Scotland & NI shows they don't want Brexit, with even the Welsh starting to talk independence. In depth data reviews showed that Welsh speaking areas voted strongly to remain, with the Wales vote skewed by older English who have moved there.

So basically England dragging everyone down with them

Yep. England have 85% of the population so it’s really England’s on Brexit.

I don’t know the % of voters who can vote in England but I guess they would still highly outnumber the rest UK

Spanish Eyes · 21-10-2019 07:01PM

If it comes down to a GE Johnson could lose his seat. It isn't a safe seat, I think he only had a majority of about 5k at the last election.

BarryD2 · 21-10-2019 07:03PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The reason leavers are not marching like that is because they won. And they rightly expect the result will be carried out.

If Leavers aren't marching, it's for multiple reasons a) some are embarrassed as they realise they were deceived and misled b) some privileged few might benefit from it and anyway wouldn't be seen dead on a march and c) the rest couldn't be arsed. You're left with the smaller number of right wing fascist type groups for whom protest and incitement to violence is meat & drink.

Professor Moriarty · 21-10-2019 07:05PM

BarryD2 wrote: »

If Leavers aren't marching, it's for multiple reasons a) some are embarrassed as they realise they were deceived and misled b) some privileged few might benefit from it and anyway wouldn't be seen dead on a march and c) the rest couldn't be arsed. You're left with the smaller number of right wing fascist type groups for whom protest and incitement to violence is meat & drink.

Quite a few have died of old age.

trellheim · 21-10-2019 07:09PM

Majority 5034 at last election. Anyone campaigning on him lying about Heathrow's 3rd runway should clean up ( if you remember he fked off to Afghanistan to avoid having to vote with the Government - same bolloxology he is at with the letter )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uxbridge_and_South_Ruislip_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

PS - dug up the quotes from C4

Mr Johnson was an outspoken critic of Heathrow expansion throughout his time as Mayor of London. In December 2013, he told reporters that a third runway “would be a mistake.”

Fast-forward to September of the following year, when he penned a piece for the Telegraph, declaring: “There is no government in the Western world that would even contemplate an act so self-defeating, so short-termist, and so barbarically contemptuous of the rights of the population.

He went on: “That is why all three main parties have correctly ruled out expansion of Heathrow airport, in the form of a third runway.” Mr Johnson used the same piece to argue for a brand-new airport in the Thames Estuary, dubbed Boris Island. The project never took off.

In May 2015, Mr Johnson returned to the House of Commons. In his acceptance speech on his election as MP for Uxbridge, he promised: “I will lie down in front of those bulldozers and stop the building, stop the construction of that third runway.”

But just a few weeks later, Mr Johnson appeared to distance himself from the pledge: in July 2015, he suggested “I don’t think my services as a bulldozer blocker will be required, for decades, if ever.”

The strong rhetoric returned in 2016, when, in his first comments on the issue as foreign secretary, he dismissed Heathrow expansion as a “fantasy” and said plans for a third runway should be “consigned to the dustbin.”

Joe_ Public · 21-10-2019 07:10PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

If it comes down to a GE Johnson could lose his seat. It isn't a safe seat, I think he only had a majority of about 5k at the last election.

He would be losing it to a 24 year old british muslim which does seem a bit of a long shot, but the sheer irony of it would be delicious if it was to happen.

devnull · 21-10-2019 07:10PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

If it comes down to a GE Johnson could lose his seat. It isn't a safe seat, I think he only had a majority of about 5k at the last election.

He'll be parachuted into another seat if that's a danger.

BarryD2 · 21-10-2019 07:12PM

Duane Dibbley wrote: »

Yep. England have 85% of the population so it’s really England’s on Brexit.

Indeed it's English Nationalism that has driven a lot of this Brexit sentiment. Just like excessive Irish Nationalism has been divisive in this country. At least within the framework of the EU, we were able to muddle along under a common canopy. As we've seen in other regions of Europe, the growth of nationalism can be corrosive, divisive and lead to the breaking up of political entities. That's the fire that the Brexiteers are stoking.

Call me Al · 21-10-2019 07:13PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

If it comes down to a GE Johnson could lose his seat. It isn't a safe seat, I think he only had a majority of about 5k at the last election.

There was speculation in the last week or two (after he visited schools there) that he was going to run in Dominic Grieve's constituency. His own seat was at risk.. This seemed a safer bet.

Joe_ Public · 21-10-2019 07:13PM

serfboard wrote: »

Interesting research carried out by an accountancy firm about debt levels in the UK:

Worth remembering that there are 120 seaside constituencies in the UK - 100 of them voted for Brexit.

Think of these towns in the 1950s - absolutely booming and packed full of tourists. Then think of people who grew up during that time knowing nothing but booming local economies. Once cheap jet travel was invented and developed, that was then end of that, and nothing has been done to replace those lost jobs.

There was one place that stood out that was not a seaside town:

Stoke-on-Trent voted to leave by three to one.

Another place that had a booming local industry (pottery) which has now seriously declined. And even one of the non-pottery industries, has shed thousands of jobs:

Of course, the kicking out against London that resulted in people voting to Leave is not news on this thread. However their woefully-misplaced thinking that things couldn't get worse for them is difficult to contemplate. It's also sad to think that they belived in slimy, sleazely, Tory used-car salesmen, who had done so much to cause the problems in the first place.

Cant wait for an election campaign when we finally get to ask farage and his followers what great vision and plans they have to address this decline.

Professor Moriarty · 21-10-2019 07:27PM

Gove just said that direct rule will have to return if Stormont isn't up and running after Brexit. Hope the EU picked this up.

serfboard · 21-10-2019 07:33PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

ask farage and his followers what great vision and plans they have to address this decline.

Brexit!

And if you ask him to expand on any policy other than Brexit he'll get all stroppy, say that's it's an outrageous stitch-up and threaten never to appear on your TV channel again.

Kermit.de.frog · 21-10-2019 07:34PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Gove just said that direct rule will have to return if Stormont isn't up and running after Brexit. Hope the EU picked this up.

He also said discussions would have to be entered in to with the Irish government.

i.e veiled threat to unionists.

Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

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