Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Joe_ Public · 20-10-2019 09:23AM

Nice line from journalist on marr. Saying lets get brexit done is a bit like a couple saying lets get childbirth done so we can get back to having lots of sleep and normal lives again. Pretty neat analogy.

Also see amber rudd basically telling sophy ridge the deal is rubbish but i'm going to vote for it anyway. I dont think she's actually pregnant, but she definitely just wants to get brexit done.

devnull · 20-10-2019 09:27AM

Farage has been on Sky and has just made it obvious that it's about screwing over the common man and helping the rich get richer is all that he cares about. But no doubt his supporters still won't see the fact he is desperate to screw them over.

Nigel Farage says the EU wanting to keep employment legislation, social protections, environmental law and taxation on a level-playing field is "not taking back control of our laws".

"We still haven't got a package that works," he complains. "It doesn't make us a free country. It's just Mrs [Theresa] May's deal with a few improvements."

Plus he wants a delay!
https://twitter.com/RidgeOnSunday/status/1185828871163305984

Basically he wants a no deal Brexit so the rich can plunder the poor and take away their rights.

It's there naked for all to see why the Brexit party are about and their vile motivations.

Guy:Incognito · 20-10-2019 09:30AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Spain has said it would have no jusifiable legal objection to Scotland joining the .
EU
Their reasoning is that Scotland's independence will be gained constitutionally, Catalonia attempt is according to Spain, unconstitutional and illegal.
Rahoy outlined this a long time ago.

Surely Scotland would have to show, for a decent amount of time that it can stand on its own two feet, before being given a chance to join? Fast tracking them in and them being a basket case needing billions pumped in constantly is hardly a good situation.

The same with the north. All the talk is of united Ireland this and that. It shouldn't be that they separate from the UK and join straight away. Be your own country, then look at what the people of both countries want when they know whats involved and what both bring to the party.

FFS at least learn from Brexit. A decision where one side (leave) has no idea of the consequences beyond their own camp telling them everything will be great, knowing full well they are telling lies.

Guy:Incognito · 20-10-2019 09:32AM

gimli2112 wrote: »

No idea what the father was thinking putting the kid into that situation, at best it's a serious lapse in judgement,

A cynic might see it as a deliberate attempt to generate a favorable story in the press................

EDIT, beaten to it.

fergiesfolly · 20-10-2019 09:33AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It doesn't matter, none of them should be under threat leaving their place of work.

He may have wanted his son to witness events in Parliament...fairly momentous stuff going on, after all.

I have no time for Mogg, less time for that sort of abusive protest.
Protest should not be abusive.

You're absolutely right.
But JRM knew the crowd would be abusive and still took his child through it. Worse still, he dressed him up to look like a miniature version of himself, drawing even more attention to them and putting his child in danger.
I don't like him or his politics, but to to that to his own son proves what a vile, odious cretan he is.

LeinsterDub · 20-10-2019 09:43AM

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1185835835859652608

Would SNP and Lib Dems support this?

boggerman1 · 20-10-2019 09:45AM

devnull wrote: »

Farage has been on Sky and has just made it obvious that it's about screwing over the common man and helping the rich get richer is all that he cares about. But no doubt his supporters still won't see the fact he is desperate to screw them over.

Plus he wants a delay!
https://twitter.com/RidgeOnSunday/status/1185828871163305984

Basically he wants a no deal Brexit so the rich can plunder the poor and take away their rights.

It's there naked for all to see why the Brexit party are about and their vile motivations.

But the common man believes the lies sold by farage so they will get what they voted for and hope the common man is screwed royally.and listening to English radio they are beyond redemption now.time to lance the boil

circadian · 20-10-2019 09:48AM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1185835835859652608

Would SNP and Lib Dems support this?

I guess the devil is in the details but on the face of it yeah I'd say they would, unless the Lib Dems are just electioneering with their revoke A50 pledge.

devnull · 20-10-2019 09:50AM

boggerman1 wrote: »

But the common man believes the lies sold by farage so they will get what they voted for and hope the common man is screwed royally.and listening to English radio they are beyond redemption now.time to lance the boil

Indeed, if you ask them for a single policy other than delivering Brexit of Farage's none of them can say anything and when you tell them about his tax plans and workers rights they say that is all 'project fear' and speculation even though he's openly said it himself.

Some of them are so desperate for Brexit they'd sell their family down the river to get it.

devnull · 20-10-2019 10:01AM

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1185842754385043458

I think this sums up the Tory party quite well right now and you'd have to ask yourself why the hell are they betting each other and secondly, if this shows that they are not as united as they seem to be, with Gove once again throwing people under the bus.

ancapailldorcha · 20-10-2019 10:04AM

circadian wrote: »

I guess the devil is in the details but on the face of it yeah I'd say they would, unless the Lib Dems are just electioneering with their revoke A50 pledge.

I've always got the impression that they're just trying to shift the Overton window such that remain is no longer on the side of it but in the middle.

If the referendum includes remain, they'd be insane not to support it.

Infini · 20-10-2019 10:05AM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1185835835859652608

Would SNP and Lib Dems support this?

They would as for the SNP it prevents them being dragged out of the EU against their will and as for the Lib Dems it's the next best thing to outright revocation. Regardless for both parties it means a way foward and since Corbyn has at least come out and supported this option anyways it should pass. The DUP will for all their stupidity will likely support it too as it lets them get off the hook while throwing Boris and friends under their own bus purely just to spite them.

If they can pass a motion for a referendum then win a Remain vote it utterly destroys the conservatives plans for good, Remain can easily win it if they have positive slogans as well as easily ripping the piss out of the antics of JRM and Boris while highliting the core point that remain costs nothing but leave means years of endless Brexit news. It would be enough to close down the damn thing for some people.

Enzokk · 20-10-2019 10:12AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It doesn't matter, none of them should be under threat leaving their place of work.

He may have wanted his son to witness events in Parliament...fairly momentous stuff going on, after all.

I have no time for Mogg, less time for that sort of abusive protest.
Protest should not be abusive.

Agreed, the vitriol has been evident for a long time before today so taking your son to parliament yesterday was either a stupid thing to do or cynical. JRM is not a stupid man.

devnull wrote: »

Farage has been on Sky and has just made it obvious that it's about screwing over the common man and helping the rich get richer is all that he cares about. But no doubt his supporters still won't see the fact he is desperate to screw them over.

Plus he wants a delay!

Basically he wants a no deal Brexit so the rich can plunder the poor and take away their rights.

It's there naked for all to see why the Brexit party are about and their vile motivations.

Farage wants a second pension I think and he knows he can get one from the UK Parliament if a election is held before they leave the EU. So no shock he is looking for a delay. He knows how to get his bread buttered and he is looking to butter it on both sides, now that his EU pension is secured whatever happens.

Joe_ Public · 20-10-2019 10:15AM

The Liberal democrats do support a referendum. The revoke position is only a fantasy based on the party becoming a dominant government partner. Numbers might still be tight for it i would think and then you have the issue of a hostile government having to legislate for it. Longer road that than people give credit for i think.

Shelga · 20-10-2019 10:29AM

Infini wrote: »

They would as for the SNP it prevents them being dragged out of the EU against their will and as for the Lib Dems it's the next best thing to outright revocation. Regardless for both parties it means a way foward and since Corbyn has at least come out and supported this option anyways it should pass. The DUP will for all their stupidity will likely support it too as it lets them get off the hook while throwing Boris and friends under their own bus purely just to spite them.

If they can pass a motion for a referendum then win a Remain vote it utterly destroys the conservatives plans for good, Remain can easily win it if they have positive slogans as well as easily ripping the piss out of the antics of JRM and Boris while highliting the core point that remain costs nothing but leave means years of endless Brexit news. It would be enough to close down the damn thing for some people.

I think the view that another referendum in which Remain win will solve everything is naive. The genie is out of the bottle.

I do still agree, however, that the best possible outcome is a referendum on Johnson’s deal v Remain, where Remain wins by more than ~55%. Even then, the political system in the UK will remain polarised and toxic, and a large portion of the electorate will be extremely angry and disillusioned. They will think: our decision was reversed, before we had even left.

GM228 · 20-10-2019 10:36AM

Nice to see Johnson surrendered to the Surrender Act!

Sorry couldn't resist.

As to weather legal action will proceed on the basis the other letters frustrate the intention of the first letter (and ultimately the Benn Act) remains to be seen, he may have sent those other letters lawfully after all, we shall see what happens in the Inner House tomorrow.

ancapailldorcha · 20-10-2019 10:36AM

Shelga wrote: »

I think the view that another referendum in which Remain win will solve everything is naive. The genie is out of the bottle.

I do still agree, however, that the best possible outcome is a referendum on Johnson’s deal v Remain, where Remain wins by more than ~55%. Even then, the political system in the UK will remain polarised and toxic, and a large portion of the electorate will be extremely angry and disillusioned. They will think: our decision was reversed, before we had even left.

People will probably disbelieve me when I say this, and I understand why but my primary motivation for supporting another referendum is to legitimise Brexit, ie to ask the people, "Given what has transpired and come to light in the past three years, is this huge change what you want?"

If people want to take the all but guaranteed economic hit, to turn cracks in the Union into chasms and to jettison the UK's standing in the world all for the whims of a few shadowy financiers then that's their call. This was far from clear in 2016. It is now so there's nothing anyone like me can say or do to question the legitimacy of a People's Vote whatever the result is.

The UK deserves a chance to rethink this, to show that it is better than the libertarian Tory right and to vote based on facts and not fantasies. I doubt there is a single member of the "We knew what we were voting for" brigade who desired turning the Prime Minister into a supplicant of the French president three times. I want to end this with a remain vote but I want Brexit voters to have the chance to be 100% sure so that the fallout will be entirely on them regardless of the fantasies they've been sold by the likes of Rothermere, Murdoch and Desmond.

Akrasia · 20-10-2019 10:37AM

devnull wrote: »

Indeed, if you ask them for a single policy other than delivering Brexit of Farage's none of them can say anything and when you tell them about his tax plans and workers rights they say that is all 'project fear' and speculation even though he's openly said it himself.

Some of them are so desperate for Brexit they'd sell their family down the river to get it.

The fact that the brexit party got away with running for office without a manifesto says it all.

Water John · 20-10-2019 10:42AM

If it is structured right then a confirmatory Ref of Johnson Deal V Remain has a good chance of getting through. I would expect the DUP to back as a get out of jail card. Have they the bravery to do it? It's their one option left to get rid of checks in the Irish Sea. Would expect them to vote for it.

Guy:Incognito · 20-10-2019 10:43AM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

People will probably disbelieve me when I say this, and I understand why but my primary motivation for supporting another referendum is to legitimise Brexit, ie to ask the people, "Given what has transpired and come to light in the past three years, is this huge change what you want?"

If people want to take the all but guaranteed economic hit, to turn cracks in the Union into chasms and to jettison the UK's standing in the world all for the whims of a few shadowy financiers then that's their call. This was far from clear in 2016. It is now so there's nothing anyone like me can say or do to question the legitimacy of a People's Vote whatever the result is.

The UK deserves a chance to rethink this, to show that it is better than the libertarian Tory right and to vote based on facts and not fantasies. I doubt there is a single member of the "We knew what we were voting for" brigade who desired turning the Prime Minister into a supplicant of the French president three times. I want to end this with a remain vote but I want Brexit voters to have the chance to be 100% sure so that the fallout will be entirely on them regardless of the fantasies they've been sold by the likes of Rothermere, Murdoch and Desmond.

They need 2 votes though.

First on the deal and then on deal V remain. Rerunning the referendum without a clear line on what leave means is just the same thing again.

It needs to be clear that leave is this exact deal (or whatever or they eventually agree on, no deal ect.)

But there theres the Scotland situation to consider too. Do they stay in the union if its remain?

A Dub in Glasgo · 20-10-2019 10:47AM

devnull wrote: »

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1185842754385043458

I think this sums up the Tory party quite well right now and you'd have to ask yourself why the hell are they betting each other and secondly, if this shows that they are not as united as they seem to be, with Gove once again throwing people under the bus.

Reminds of that scene in Trading Places where the two Duke brothers reveal they fecked everything up for a $1 bet

A Dub in Glasgo · 20-10-2019 10:49AM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1185835835859652608

Would SNP and Lib Dems support this?

I am not sure the SNP should unless each constitiuent country in the 'union' has to vote for Brexit in order for the UK to leave

ancapailldorcha · 20-10-2019 10:55AM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

They need 2 votes though.

First on the deal and then on deal V remain. Rerunning the referendum without a clear line on what leave means is just the same thing again.

It needs to be clear that leave is this exact deal (or whatever or they eventually agree on, no deal ect.)

But there theres the Scotland situation to consider too. Do they stay in the union if its remain?

Depends on how things pan out. If we have a GE and Boris wins on a no deal mandate then it's GG. If Corbyn wins on a second referendum mandate then he can ditch the deal and either wins some token concessions for his own and run a referendum for that. He won't have no deal on the ballot anyway as his supporters will not tolerate that.

Regarding Scotland, I think they will want out regardless but I would expect them to get much more extreme in the event of no deal, even potentially plumping for a Unilateral Declaration of Independence if they are refused another IndyRef from London. Northern Ireland is getting special treatment so why shouldn't Scotland? I am aware of the GFA being the difference but Scotland will want special arrangements or independence.

Brexit will scupper the union make no mistake.

Guy:Incognito · 20-10-2019 10:56AM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Reminds of that scene in Trading Places where the two Duke brothers reveal they fecked everything up for a $1 bet

I made the mistake of putting the youtube clip of that a few mins ago, forgetting where I was. It vanished

It was the first thing that came to mind for me too.

Joe_ Public · 20-10-2019 11:12AM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I am not sure the SNP should unless each constitiuent country in the 'union' has to vote for Brexit in order for the UK to leave

If you start imposing those kind of conditions before the vote you'll simply never get it to the starting line at all. Leave side just wont engage and that would be a problem. SNP has always backed second vote so i imagine they would be on board with a straight Johnson deal v remain if that can be delivered.

J Mysterio · 20-10-2019 11:12AM

RE the extension request...

HOC have still not voted on the WA.

Might it make sense for the EU to say, sorry, we will not entertain an extension untill you have voted on the agreement we literally just negotiated? They havent even tested it yet.

Water John · 20-10-2019 11:14AM

SNP have been quite clear that if Remain is an option, that is what they would support. They have said they're first priority is not to have Scotland dragged out of the EU against the will of the Scottish people.
It's the only way to break the logjam.

If the HOC vote for the WA then it's game over, there is no other vote.

FrancieBrady · 20-10-2019 11:14AM

fergiesfolly wrote: »

You're absolutely right.
But JRM knew the crowd would be abusive and still took his child through it. Worse still, he dressed him up to look like a miniature version of himself, drawing even more attention to them and putting his child in danger.
I don't like him or his politics, but to to that to his own son proves what a vile, odious cretan he is.

My main criticism would still be with those who seen the situation and couldn't contain themselves.

Everyone has responsibilities here and abuse like that should be condemned FIRST. Like racist chants your opinion of the abused is secondary tbh.

Joe_ Public · 20-10-2019 11:17AM

J Mysterio wrote: »

RE the extension request...

HOC have still not voted on the WA.

Might it make sense for the EU to say, sorry, we will not entertain an extension untill you have voted on the agreement we literally just negotiated? They havent even tested it yet.

I dont see there is an issue with the extension. Whether deal passed or not they'll need it. Even if it passes hoc it still then has to go to brussels to be ratified, academic process but still requires time. So its just a matter of how long for extension not if. I imagine EU leaders themselves remain concerned about no deal.

J Mysterio · 20-10-2019 11:18AM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I dont see there is an issue with the extension. Whether deal passed or not they'll need it. Even if it passes hoc it still then has to go to brussels to be ratified, academic process but still requires time. So its just a matter of how long for extension not if. I imagine EU leaders themselves remain concerned about no deal.

Well, I guess the Benn act gives the EU the flexibility to offer whatever extension they like.

Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

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