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Whiskey and Wealth Club

  • 11-09-2019 2:06pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 20


    Hey there,

    Just wondering if anyone has come across this crew?
    https://whiskeywealthclub.com/

    They seem to have a very good marketing spiel put together but as someone who has little or no knowledge of how the Whiskey industry operates I'd be keen to see if anyone else on here has come across them.


    Thanks


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,902 ✭✭✭daheff


    <snip>


    If you are interested in alcohol investing, maybe look at something like Brewdog who are doing a funding round.

    gets you 5% off drinks in their pubs for life. Might even make your money back that way !


  • Registered Users Posts: 20 zooprune


    :)


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,418 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    zooprune wrote: »
    Hey there,

    Just wondering if anyone has come across this crew?
    https://whiskeywealthclub.com/

    They seem to have a very good marketing spiel put together but as someone who has little or no knowledge of how the Whiskey industry operates I'd be keen to see if anyone else on here has come across them.


    Thanks

    Invest in the actual distillers etc... if you think it is a good idea.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20 zooprune


    Yeah, good shout, but your are at the mercy of the stock market with that approach, at least with the Whiskey and Wealth proposal you have a cask of whiskey to show for your investment irrespective of how things work out....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,902 ✭✭✭daheff


    aak yourself, if the returns are as good as they claim, why isnt the distillery doing it themselves?

    at least if you invest in a business its less likely to lose everything than if you invest in a cask.


    if you do invest, only put in funds that you can afford to lose completely.


    also... i couldnt see a minimum investment amount... did I miss something on the prospectus? that again would be another red flag for me


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭Darc19


    <snip>


    Now you can invest in Irish distilleries that have EIIS schemes. That way you save tax over a few years and then cash out for usually the price you paid in. The cream is the tax savings


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,895 ✭✭✭Poor_old_gill


    That is possibly the worst put together spiel that I have ever seen on a website - <snip>

    Did they mention whether the market has grown exponentially by the way?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,498 ✭✭✭BrokenArrows


    That is possibly the worst put together spiel that I have ever seen on a website - <snip>

    Did they mention whether the market has grown exponentially by the way?

    Yes very strange. Relying on a 200 year old market share to determine possible future earnings!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭CardinalJ


    I don't like the website/spiel, but the general idea is decent. Dingle did a 'founders' type thing where you could buy a cask. Could decide when to bottle it etc.

    We have a small 'whiskey pension' as we call it. Buy 2 or 3 good bottles a year and intend to hold onto then for some time. We also buy a few bottles of whiskey we know is going out of production. Jameson 12 year old for example could be picked up for €50 and bottles are now going for €85 on irish whiskey auctions.

    Worst case scenario we will have to drink our investment. 


  • Registered Users Posts: 20 zooprune


    2500 is the minimum investment from what I can see and the relatively low amount is one of the attractions.
    From any other research I've done the minimum in similar type investments can be as high as 6k which is way out of scope for me.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 20 zooprune


    Thanks for the feedback folks,
    T'would be a relatively small amount I'd be looking to invest.
    This might sound parochial, but I have reservations about the directors set up and the lack of Irish voices that seem to be involved.
    Did some more digging and came accross this article in the Sindo: https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/alternative-investor-whiskey-wealth-club-targets-24m-in-revenue-38432991.html?fbclid=IwAR3lsh10s0S5Oho709PAgLEQlRgGg49yFnH_UZKfNRWC0xcA1UadSxsc55c

    Might leave it sit for a while and do some more research!

    Thanks


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 373 ✭✭JMMCapital


    Just invest in an Emerging market ETF or Gold/Silver ETF


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭Bob Harris


    zooprune wrote: »

    21 opened and in operation and another 25 distilleries on the way? Sounds like overkill to me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭Bob Harris


    Bob Harris wrote: »
    21 opened and in operation and another 25 distilleries on the way? Sounds like overkill to me.

    Funnily enough I was at a dart's comp at the weekend. Quite a lot of whiskey drinking going on. Settle the nerves maybe. nevertheless surprised at how popular it was.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,902 ✭✭✭daheff


    zooprune wrote: »
    2500 is the minimum investment from what I can see

    where do you see that?

    The minimum investment is 1 pallet - 6 casks.
    And where is this?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭EndaHonesty


    zooprune wrote: »
    Hey there,

    Just wondering if anyone has come across this crew?
    https://whiskeywealthclub.com/

    They seem to have a very good marketing spiel put together but as someone who has little or no knowledge of how the Whiskey industry operates I'd be keen to see if anyone else on here has come across them.


    Thanks

    The minimum investment is 1 pallet - 6 casks.

    I bought a pallet of casks in the West Cork Distillery offering. The pallet cost just under 16,000.

    We (the investors) were taken on a tour of the distillery to meet the owners of the distillery, to taste the whiskey and to see our casks, so I know the investment is genuine.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20 zooprune


    on their investment prospectus they say the following:




    3: WHOLESALE INVESTMENT OPPORTUNITY
    This is where you come in. Each cask is offered at a very affordable
    wholesale rate starting at just €2,550. Our price covers the cost
    of the 200-liter oak cask, It also includes the 200 liters of Whiskey
    inside the cask, plus storage and insurance for 5 years. The Whiskey’s
    title and ownership is given to you, making it an asset-backed
    investment while also giving you the freedom to sell at any time.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭Darc19


    Remember that prices quoted do not include bottling, delivery, duty and vat on those costs.

    Duty and vat on that duty is about €18 a bottle.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20 zooprune


    Darc19 wrote: »
    Remember that prices quoted do not include bottling, delivery, duty and vat on those costs.

    Duty and vat on that duty is about €18 a bottle.

    Yes,but would have thought that those costs wouldn’t be applicable if you’re selling the cask itself on after 3-5 years back to the distillery


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭Darc19


    zooprune wrote: »
    Yes,but would have thought that those costs wouldn’t be applicable if you’re selling the cask itself on after 3-5 years.

    I wouldn't expect it to be at much premium as the starting price is probably the very basic whiskey and that's worth about €6-€8 per bottle at best

    I'd prefer a direct investment in a distillery cask from the distillery itself without a heavily advertised middle man taking a cut.

    Connaught cask club is in Ballina and you also have the Nephin distillery.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20 zooprune


    Darc19 wrote: »
    I wouldn't expect it to be at much premium as the starting price is probably the very basic whiskey and that's worth about €6-€8 per bottle at best

    I'd prefer a direct investment in a distillery cask from the distillery itself without a heavily advertised middle man taking a cut.

    Yes,agree with you on that approach but it seems like the cost of entry with that route is considerably higher at around 6k which is far too high for me.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,418 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    We (the investors) were taken on a tour of the distillery to meet the owners of the distillery, to taste the whiskey and to see our casks, so I know the investment is genuine.

    So how exactly did you satisfy yourself that the casks you were shown were yours? How do you know that they were not the same ones shown to someone else earlier or to some other vendor later. Or even if the casks were there the following day after you left?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,418 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    zooprune wrote: »
    Yes,agree with you on that approach but it seems like the cost of entry with that route is considerably higher at around 6k which is far too high for me.

    Then consider the ‘pick & shovel’ merchants...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭EndaHonesty


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    So how exactly did you satisfy yourself that the casks you were shown were yours? How do you know that they were not the same ones shown to someone else earlier or to some other vendor later. Or even if the casks were there the following day after you left?

    It's not rocket surgery Jim, each cask is numbered and labelled.
    Those numbers and labels match the numbers on our certificates and invoices.

    Are you really suggesting that West Cork Distillers would engage in fraud to embezzle money from unsuspecting people?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,418 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    It's not rocket surgery Jim, each cask is numbered and labelled.
    Those numbers and labels match the numbers on our certificates and invoices.

    Are you really suggesting that West Cork Distillers would engage in fraud to embezzle money from unsuspecting people?

    All I'm suggesting is that if you are going to start buying commodities, then it is in your best interests to ensure that the normal standards of third party verification are applied.

    There does not need to be any fraud for things to go wrong. You are dealing with very small companies and on average 7 or 8 out of 10 are likely to fail. In the event of a liquidation, if you can't prove that you own the cask AND it's contents, then it becomes part of the general assets of the company available to all creditors, including preferential creditors, which would rank before you.

    At the end of the day, it is your money and your risk. Generally speaking my advice would be that if you are going to invest serious money in commodities then you should either require third party verification or recognise the additional risk in your investment model and require a higher return to compensate for the higher risk.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 674 ✭✭✭FernandoTorres


    I find it incredible that after all that's happened in Ireland that people are still going for these kind of unregulated investments. You literally just have to look at the name for all sorts of alarm bells to be going off.


    Anyway, here's some reading from Australia for anyone considering it. This is a highly respected, award winning distillery: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-08/nant-whisky-investors-staff-matthew-hayden-dudded-in-collapse/8882420


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭EndaHonesty


    I find it incredible that after all that's happened in Ireland that people are still going for these kind of unregulated investments. You literally just have to look at the name for all sorts of alarm bells to be going off.


    Anyway, here's some reading from Australia for anyone considering it. This is a highly respected, award winning distillery: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-08/nant-whisky-investors-staff-matthew-hayden-dudded-in-collapse/8882420

    My investment is with West Cork Distillers. A successful, profitable company with a proven track record.

    Whiskey & Wealth Club are simply the promotors.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,601 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Anyway, here's some reading from Australia for anyone considering it. This is a highly respected, award winning distillery: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-08/nant-whisky-investors-staff-matthew-hayden-dudded-in-collapse/8882420
    Award winning, yes. Respected? Not really. They were very new to market.

    They received stellar review from Jim Murray. Then interest in the cask ownership exceed capacity, but they sold more than they could and did a bunk.
    My investment is with West Cork Distillers. A successful, profitable company with a proven track record.

    Is the buy back price guaranteed? Or a value they decide in future?
    It's unlikely they'd fiddle the casks. You've zero control over the cask. But if the price is guaranteed, does it matter


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭EndaHonesty


    Mellor wrote: »
    Is the buy back price guaranteed? Or a value they decide in future?
    It's unlikely they'd fiddle the casks. You've zero control over the cask. But if the price is guaranteed, does it matter

    The future price is not guaranteed.

    By making my investment I have entered into an agreement whereby my casks are stored for a period of up to 5 years.

    After the initial 5 years I can extend the storage for €50 per cask per year. That includes insurance.

    I can sell the casks at any point but realistically not until the liquid becomes whiskey after 3 years.

    My own intention is to keep the casks for long term as a speculative punt. I hope to be retired in 30 years so a windfall then would be very useful...

    https://www.thespiritsbusiness.com/2018/02/macallan-sets-new-record-for-1989-cask-sale/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,601 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    The future price is not guaranteed.

    By making my investment I have entered into an agreement whereby my casks are stored for a period of up to 5 years.

    After the initial 5 years I can extend the storage for €50 per cask per year. That includes insurance.

    I can sell the casks at any point but realistically not until the liquid becomes whiskey after 3 years.

    My own intention is to keep the casks for long term as a speculative punt. I hope to be retired in 30 years so a windfall then would be very useful...

    https://www.thespiritsbusiness.com/2018/02/macallan-sets-new-record-for-1989-cask-sale/
    Realistically, is anyone other than WCD going to buy it from you? They’ll know the validity of its contents but other might not.
    The Macallen cask was held in a bonded warehouse. I looked into buying a cask here. But the lack of “certified” contents, age, etc put me off.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,092 ✭✭✭bcklschaps


    I watched the promotional video and was actually giggling to myself. Its absolute tosh.

    No guarantee of what the whiskey from this unknown distillery will be worth in 5 yrs time. They talk about experience, tradition and craft etc. They haven't sold a feckin drop of Whiskey yet. Any really expensive Whiskey or Whisky is old or very old....and rare. This is what makes it expensive.


    There's a Whiskey distillery sprouting up in every backwater in the country. They can't all be making top quality stuff?? Even if they accidentally hit the jackpot with a super product....they are unknown and do you think the existing big Irish Whiskey distillers with big name products are not going to fight back in any way.

    <snip> Tread carefully boardsies.

    Meanwhile, anyone for a few Tuilip bulbs ??? Swear to God they'll be a global shortage in a couple of years.... this time will be DIFFERENT.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,418 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    My investment is with West Cork Distillers. A successful, profitable company with a proven track record.

    Can you post a link to their financials? The only reference I can see is to a turn over of about 20m, which means they are not even a micro cap => that means they are not investment grade no matter why you make think.

    It is basically speculating in commodities.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭EndaHonesty


    Mellor wrote: »
    Realistically, is anyone other than WCD going to buy it from you? They’ll know the validity of its contents but other might not.
    The Macallen cask was held in a bonded warehouse. I looked into buying a cask here. But the lack of “certified” contents, age, etc put me off.

    My whiskey is held in a bonded warehouse. It's certified.

    I agree that WCD are the most likely purchaser, but they are not the only one. There is an active commercial market for bulk whiskey.
    Where do you think Conor McGregor got his whiskey from? He doesn't have a distillery.

    He's not the only one either, all the new brands will need product before they distill their own. There will always be a market for the whiskey.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭EndaHonesty


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    Can you post a link to their financials? The only reference I can see is to a turn over of about 20m, which means they are not even a micro cap => that means they are not investment grade no matter why you make think.

    It is basically speculating in commodities.

    By that measure Amazon were at one point "not investment grade".

    WCD are bigger than Teeling.


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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,418 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    By that measure Amazon were at one point "not investment grade".

    WCD are bigger than Teeling.

    And the same rules applied. You want to take unnecessary risks that is entirely up to you.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,418 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    My whiskey is held in a bonded warehouse. It's certified.

    A bonded warehouse relates to taxes and duties, so I have no idea what you have certified.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭EndaHonesty


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    And the same rules applied. You want to take unnecessary risks that is entirely up to you.

    I don't consider this investment risky.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭EndaHonesty


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    A bonded warehouse relates to taxes and duties, so I have no idea what you have certified.

    I know exactly what a bonded warehouse is. My casks are stored in a bonded warehouse.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,601 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    bcklschaps wrote: »
    No guarantee of what the whiskey from this unknown distillery will be worth in 5 yrs time. They talk about experience, tradition and craft etc. They haven't sold a feckin drop of Whiskey yet.
    The future price of an investment is rarely guaranteed. That’s hardly a valid criticism.
    I understand you tread carefully stance. But saying they haven’t sold a drop of whiskey yet suggests you probably aren’t very familiar with the Irish whiskey market.
    Where do you think Conor McGregor got his whiskey from? He doesn't have a distillery.
    He pays a distillery to produce it entirely. He isn’t buying casks in bulk.
    Bulk purchasing occurs. But it’s typically small producers buying from large stock. Not independents owners. Of course it’s possible.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭EndaHonesty


    Mellor wrote: »
    He pays a distillery to produce it entirely. He isn’t buying casks in bulk.
    Bulk purchasing occurs. But it’s typically small producers buying from large stock. Not independents owners. Of course it’s possible.

    Whiskey isn't whiskey until 3 years after distilling. McGregor didn't start his brand 3 years ago. He literally bulk bought casks. They bought all the casks available last year.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/food-and-drink/drink/conor-mcgregor-s-new-whiskey-a-taste-test-1.3634848
    a quick turnaround is only possible by purchasing whiskey already produced on the stills of Midleton, Bushmills, West Cork, Cooley or the tiny Cooley-controlled Locke’s Distillery


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,418 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    I know exactly what a bonded warehouse is. My casks are stored in a bonded warehouse.

    And the certified bit you stated... who certified what?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,418 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    I don't consider this investment risky.

    I’m sure you don’t, but then neither did the people who invested in the various forestry schemes, private property schemes and now closed alternative investment funds.

    Commodity investing is a high risk game and I see nothing in this current proposal to suggest that even the basic steps to minimize the risks have been applied.

    It is the exact same story line as you come across in Southern Europe only this time it’s whiskey rather than wine, olives, lemons or oranges.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭EndaHonesty


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    I’m sure you don’t, but then neither did the people who invested in the various forestry schemes, private property schemes and now closed alternative investment funds.

    Commodity investing is a high risk game and I see nothing in this current proposal to suggest that even the basic steps to minimize the risks have been applied.

    It is the exact same story line as you come across in Southern Europe only this time it’s whiskey rather than wine, olives, lemons or oranges.

    It's only the "exact same story" to hurlers on the ditch...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,601 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Whiskey isn't whiskey until 3 years after distilling. McGregor didn't start his brand 3 years ago. He literally bulk bought casks. They bought all the casks available last year.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/food-and-drink/drink/conor-mcgregor-s-new-whiskey-a-taste-test-1.3634848
    I’m well aware how how it takes to make whiskey and what the process is. McGregor didn’t buy up all the whiskey from all of those suppliers. Read the start of that sentence.
    ”Many new entrants to the market...

    That’s how new entrants produce whiskey older than their business.
    On the other hand McGregors whiskey is made by Bushmills. Which is the other option.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭EndaHonesty


    The full sentence...
    Many new entrants to the market, including McGregor purchase whiskey from already mature stocks held by the existing distillers and label it under their own branding.
    Mellor wrote: »
    That’s how new entrants produce whiskey older than their business.
    On the other hand McGregors whiskey is made by Bushmills. Which is the other option.

    McGregor's whiskey is not 100% Bushmills, it's not 100% anything, they bought casks from several distilleries.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,601 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    McGregor's whiskey is not 100% Bushmills, they bought casks from several distilleries.
    It’s a blend of single malts made by Bushmills. And IDL grain distillate owned/aged by Bushmills for original and Black Bush (they only distill single malt in Antrim). Bushmills have a lot of stock.

    Best of luck with your cask. You got a good price.


  • Boards.ie Employee Posts: 12,597 ✭✭✭✭✭Boards.ie: Niamh
    Boards.ie Community Manager


    Hi guys,
    Whiskey & Wealth Club have been reading this thread and wanted to clarify a few things that have come up in it. They can't post in reply to you so if you have any further questions after reading this, I'd encourage you to contact them directly. Thanks.
    Thanks for all the comments. We’d like to respond to a few of them to set the record straight and provide facts for people to base their own opinions on.

    In response to the question around returns, and why distilleries aren’t doing it themselves. Distilleries are absolutely doing this. It’s their entire business model. They make whiskey and sit on it until it matures and becomes more valuable and then bottle, sell and profit. It is the exact same thing we offer to investors. However, for the distillery, it’s a capital-intensive model. They invest money to buy the grain, make the whiskey, and pay the staff and run the distillery for 5 years before they can recoup any money back on it. So some distilleries opt to sell a percentage of their production to cover the annual running costs while laying the rest of their spirit to mature for bottle and profit later.

    We sell for less than the actual distillery because we buy in huge quantity. One misconception we’d like to make clear - clients are not investing in us. We are the intermediary. We’re buying from the distillery in bulk and guaranteeing them a certain volume. We then immediately sell to investors after we add our margin (while keeping it at an investor friendly price point). Once you have your certificate of ownership, we’re out of the deal unless the investor chooses to use us as a broker down the line to sell on the cask.

    Regarding risk, of course all investment carries risk – however, we deal with great distilleries that have award winning brands, we secure in a bonded facility, we ensure all casks are fully insured against fire, theft and damage. It’s safe and steady and in a market, that’s been trending upwards (in double digits) for over 21 years and set to continue on this double-digit growth path for another 20+ years. Data from the IWSR (International Wine and Spirits Record) who are the global benchmark on beverage data and intelligence, along with the IWA (Irish Whiskey Association) show this.

    With regards to the lack of Irish voices. I am an Irishman writing this. Our founder is an Irishman who runs the business alongside two seasoned entrepreneurs, one English and one Australian. We have four other Irish employees (6 total). Irrespective of nationality, our team are passionate and dedicated. We have over 45 (5 star) trust pilot reviews from real clients and have personally met over 80% of our customers face to face. Not to mention plenty of video testimonials on our website.

    Again thanks for the comments and interest in what we do. We’d be happy to speak to anyone on here, take them to tour the distillery, not to sell you anything, but more so to show you what it actually is and how it works on a deeper level.

    Company contact number for further questions: +44 20 3129 1639


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,601 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    One misconception we’d like to make clear - clients are not investing in us. We are the intermediary. We’re buying from the distillery in bulk and guaranteeing them a certain volume. We then immediately sell to investors after we add our margin (while keeping it at an investor friendly price point).

    I don't think that was a misconception. If anything, that was the main criticism.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭Darc19


    It's one hell of a margin that is being added and I simply cannot find any value whatsoever in what they are offering.

    Buy it as a interesting hobby, but the whiskey and wealth club prices are highly unlikely to provide you an investment profit.


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