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Whiskey and Wealth Club

  • 11-09-2019 2:06pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 20 zooprune


    Hey there,

    Just wondering if anyone has come across this crew?
    https://whiskeywealthclub.com/

    They seem to have a very good marketing spiel put together but as someone who has little or no knowledge of how the Whiskey industry operates I'd be keen to see if anyone else on here has come across them.


    Thanks


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,443 ✭✭✭ daheff


    <snip>


    If you are interested in alcohol investing, maybe look at something like Brewdog who are doing a funding round.

    gets you 5% off drinks in their pubs for life. Might even make your money back that way !


  • Registered Users Posts: 20 zooprune


    :)


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 7,840 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Jim2007


    zooprune wrote: »
    Hey there,

    Just wondering if anyone has come across this crew?
    https://whiskeywealthclub.com/

    They seem to have a very good marketing spiel put together but as someone who has little or no knowledge of how the Whiskey industry operates I'd be keen to see if anyone else on here has come across them.


    Thanks

    Invest in the actual distillers etc... if you think it is a good idea.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20 zooprune


    Yeah, good shout, but your are at the mercy of the stock market with that approach, at least with the Whiskey and Wealth proposal you have a cask of whiskey to show for your investment irrespective of how things work out....


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,443 ✭✭✭ daheff


    aak yourself, if the returns are as good as they claim, why isnt the distillery doing it themselves?

    at least if you invest in a business its less likely to lose everything than if you invest in a cask.


    if you do invest, only put in funds that you can afford to lose completely.


    also... i couldnt see a minimum investment amount... did I miss something on the prospectus? that again would be another red flag for me


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,818 ✭✭✭ Darc19


    <snip>


    Now you can invest in Irish distilleries that have EIIS schemes. That way you save tax over a few years and then cash out for usually the price you paid in. The cream is the tax savings


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,832 ✭✭✭ Poor_old_gill


    That is possibly the worst put together spiel that I have ever seen on a website - <snip>

    Did they mention whether the market has grown exponentially by the way?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,494 ✭✭✭ BrokenArrows


    That is possibly the worst put together spiel that I have ever seen on a website - <snip>

    Did they mention whether the market has grown exponentially by the way?

    Yes very strange. Relying on a 200 year old market share to determine possible future earnings!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭ CardinalJ


    I don't like the website/spiel, but the general idea is decent. Dingle did a 'founders' type thing where you could buy a cask. Could decide when to bottle it etc.

    We have a small 'whiskey pension' as we call it. Buy 2 or 3 good bottles a year and intend to hold onto then for some time. We also buy a few bottles of whiskey we know is going out of production. Jameson 12 year old for example could be picked up for €50 and bottles are now going for €85 on irish whiskey auctions.

    Worst case scenario we will have to drink our investment. 


  • Registered Users Posts: 20 zooprune


    2500 is the minimum investment from what I can see and the relatively low amount is one of the attractions.
    From any other research I've done the minimum in similar type investments can be as high as 6k which is way out of scope for me.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 20 zooprune


    Thanks for the feedback folks,
    T'would be a relatively small amount I'd be looking to invest.
    This might sound parochial, but I have reservations about the directors set up and the lack of Irish voices that seem to be involved.
    Did some more digging and came accross this article in the Sindo: https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/alternative-investor-whiskey-wealth-club-targets-24m-in-revenue-38432991.html?fbclid=IwAR3lsh10s0S5Oho709PAgLEQlRgGg49yFnH_UZKfNRWC0xcA1UadSxsc55c

    Might leave it sit for a while and do some more research!

    Thanks


  • Registered Users Posts: 373 ✭✭ JMMCapital


    Just invest in an Emerging market ETF or Gold/Silver ETF


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,462 ✭✭✭ Bob Harris


    zooprune wrote: »

    21 opened and in operation and another 25 distilleries on the way? Sounds like overkill to me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,462 ✭✭✭ Bob Harris


    Bob Harris wrote: »
    21 opened and in operation and another 25 distilleries on the way? Sounds like overkill to me.

    Funnily enough I was at a dart's comp at the weekend. Quite a lot of whiskey drinking going on. Settle the nerves maybe. nevertheless surprised at how popular it was.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,443 ✭✭✭ daheff


    zooprune wrote: »
    2500 is the minimum investment from what I can see

    where do you see that?

    The minimum investment is 1 pallet - 6 casks.
    And where is this?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭ EndaHonesty


    zooprune wrote: »
    Hey there,

    Just wondering if anyone has come across this crew?
    https://whiskeywealthclub.com/

    They seem to have a very good marketing spiel put together but as someone who has little or no knowledge of how the Whiskey industry operates I'd be keen to see if anyone else on here has come across them.


    Thanks

    The minimum investment is 1 pallet - 6 casks.

    I bought a pallet of casks in the West Cork Distillery offering. The pallet cost just under 16,000.

    We (the investors) were taken on a tour of the distillery to meet the owners of the distillery, to taste the whiskey and to see our casks, so I know the investment is genuine.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20 zooprune


    on their investment prospectus they say the following:




    3: WHOLESALE INVESTMENT OPPORTUNITY
    This is where you come in. Each cask is offered at a very affordable
    wholesale rate starting at just €2,550. Our price covers the cost
    of the 200-liter oak cask, It also includes the 200 liters of Whiskey
    inside the cask, plus storage and insurance for 5 years. The Whiskey’s
    title and ownership is given to you, making it an asset-backed
    investment while also giving you the freedom to sell at any time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,818 ✭✭✭ Darc19


    Remember that prices quoted do not include bottling, delivery, duty and vat on those costs.

    Duty and vat on that duty is about €18 a bottle.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20 zooprune


    Darc19 wrote: »
    Remember that prices quoted do not include bottling, delivery, duty and vat on those costs.

    Duty and vat on that duty is about €18 a bottle.

    Yes,but would have thought that those costs wouldn’t be applicable if you’re selling the cask itself on after 3-5 years back to the distillery


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,818 ✭✭✭ Darc19


    zooprune wrote: »
    Yes,but would have thought that those costs wouldn’t be applicable if you’re selling the cask itself on after 3-5 years.

    I wouldn't expect it to be at much premium as the starting price is probably the very basic whiskey and that's worth about €6-€8 per bottle at best

    I'd prefer a direct investment in a distillery cask from the distillery itself without a heavily advertised middle man taking a cut.

    Connaught cask club is in Ballina and you also have the Nephin distillery.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20 zooprune


    Darc19 wrote: »
    I wouldn't expect it to be at much premium as the starting price is probably the very basic whiskey and that's worth about €6-€8 per bottle at best

    I'd prefer a direct investment in a distillery cask from the distillery itself without a heavily advertised middle man taking a cut.

    Yes,agree with you on that approach but it seems like the cost of entry with that route is considerably higher at around 6k which is far too high for me.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 7,840 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Jim2007


    We (the investors) were taken on a tour of the distillery to meet the owners of the distillery, to taste the whiskey and to see our casks, so I know the investment is genuine.

    So how exactly did you satisfy yourself that the casks you were shown were yours? How do you know that they were not the same ones shown to someone else earlier or to some other vendor later. Or even if the casks were there the following day after you left?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 7,840 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Jim2007


    zooprune wrote: »
    Yes,agree with you on that approach but it seems like the cost of entry with that route is considerably higher at around 6k which is far too high for me.

    Then consider the ‘pick & shovel’ merchants...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭ EndaHonesty


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    So how exactly did you satisfy yourself that the casks you were shown were yours? How do you know that they were not the same ones shown to someone else earlier or to some other vendor later. Or even if the casks were there the following day after you left?

    It's not rocket surgery Jim, each cask is numbered and labelled.
    Those numbers and labels match the numbers on our certificates and invoices.

    Are you really suggesting that West Cork Distillers would engage in fraud to embezzle money from unsuspecting people?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 7,840 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Jim2007


    It's not rocket surgery Jim, each cask is numbered and labelled.
    Those numbers and labels match the numbers on our certificates and invoices.

    Are you really suggesting that West Cork Distillers would engage in fraud to embezzle money from unsuspecting people?

    All I'm suggesting is that if you are going to start buying commodities, then it is in your best interests to ensure that the normal standards of third party verification are applied.

    There does not need to be any fraud for things to go wrong. You are dealing with very small companies and on average 7 or 8 out of 10 are likely to fail. In the event of a liquidation, if you can't prove that you own the cask AND it's contents, then it becomes part of the general assets of the company available to all creditors, including preferential creditors, which would rank before you.

    At the end of the day, it is your money and your risk. Generally speaking my advice would be that if you are going to invest serious money in commodities then you should either require third party verification or recognise the additional risk in your investment model and require a higher return to compensate for the higher risk.


  • Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭ FernandoTorres


    I find it incredible that after all that's happened in Ireland that people are still going for these kind of unregulated investments. You literally just have to look at the name for all sorts of alarm bells to be going off.


    Anyway, here's some reading from Australia for anyone considering it. This is a highly respected, award winning distillery: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-08/nant-whisky-investors-staff-matthew-hayden-dudded-in-collapse/8882420


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭ EndaHonesty


    I find it incredible that after all that's happened in Ireland that people are still going for these kind of unregulated investments. You literally just have to look at the name for all sorts of alarm bells to be going off.


    Anyway, here's some reading from Australia for anyone considering it. This is a highly respected, award winning distillery: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-08/nant-whisky-investors-staff-matthew-hayden-dudded-in-collapse/8882420

    My investment is with West Cork Distillers. A successful, profitable company with a proven track record.

    Whiskey & Wealth Club are simply the promotors.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,276 ✭✭✭✭ Mellor


    Anyway, here's some reading from Australia for anyone considering it. This is a highly respected, award winning distillery: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-08/nant-whisky-investors-staff-matthew-hayden-dudded-in-collapse/8882420
    Award winning, yes. Respected? Not really. They were very new to market.

    They received stellar review from Jim Murray. Then interest in the cask ownership exceed capacity, but they sold more than they could and did a bunk.
    My investment is with West Cork Distillers. A successful, profitable company with a proven track record.

    Is the buy back price guaranteed? Or a value they decide in future?
    It's unlikely they'd fiddle the casks. You've zero control over the cask. But if the price is guaranteed, does it matter


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭ EndaHonesty


    Mellor wrote: »
    Is the buy back price guaranteed? Or a value they decide in future?
    It's unlikely they'd fiddle the casks. You've zero control over the cask. But if the price is guaranteed, does it matter

    The future price is not guaranteed.

    By making my investment I have entered into an agreement whereby my casks are stored for a period of up to 5 years.

    After the initial 5 years I can extend the storage for €50 per cask per year. That includes insurance.

    I can sell the casks at any point but realistically not until the liquid becomes whiskey after 3 years.

    My own intention is to keep the casks for long term as a speculative punt. I hope to be retired in 30 years so a windfall then would be very useful...

    https://www.thespiritsbusiness.com/2018/02/macallan-sets-new-record-for-1989-cask-sale/


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