Whiskey and Wealth Club

zooprune · 11-09-2019 2:06pm #1

Hey there,

Just wondering if anyone has come across this crew?
https://whiskeywealthclub.com/

They seem to have a very good marketing spiel put together but as someone who has little or no knowledge of how the Whiskey industry operates I'd be keen to see if anyone else on here has come across them.

Thanks

daheff · 11-09-2019 4:40pm

<snip>

If you are interested in alcohol investing, maybe look at something like Brewdog who are doing a funding round.

gets you 5% off drinks in their pubs for life. Might even make your money back that way !

zooprune · 11-09-2019 5:04pm

Jim2007 · 12-09-2019 2:48am

zooprune wrote: »

Hey there,

Just wondering if anyone has come across this crew?
https://whiskeywealthclub.com/

They seem to have a very good marketing spiel put together but as someone who has little or no knowledge of how the Whiskey industry operates I'd be keen to see if anyone else on here has come across them.

Thanks

Invest in the actual distillers etc... if you think it is a good idea.

zooprune · 12-09-2019 12:37pm

Yeah, good shout, but your are at the mercy of the stock market with that approach, at least with the Whiskey and Wealth proposal you have a cask of whiskey to show for your investment irrespective of how things work out....

daheff · 12-09-2019 10:12pm

aak yourself, if the returns are as good as they claim, why isnt the distillery doing it themselves?

at least if you invest in a business its less likely to lose everything than if you invest in a cask.

if you do invest, only put in funds that you can afford to lose completely.

also... i couldnt see a minimum investment amount... did I miss something on the prospectus? that again would be another red flag for me

Darc19 · 12-09-2019 10:16pm

<snip>

Now you can invest in Irish distilleries that have EIIS schemes. That way you save tax over a few years and then cash out for usually the price you paid in. The cream is the tax savings

Poor_old_gill · 13-09-2019 12:09am

That is possibly the worst put together spiel that I have ever seen on a website - <snip>

Did they mention whether the market has grown exponentially by the way?

BrokenArrows · 13-09-2019 8:12am

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

That is possibly the worst put together spiel that I have ever seen on a website - <snip>

Did they mention whether the market has grown exponentially by the way?

Yes very strange. Relying on a 200 year old market share to determine possible future earnings!!!

CardinalJ · 13-09-2019 11:00am

I don't like the website/spiel, but the general idea is decent. Dingle did a 'founders' type thing where you could buy a cask. Could decide when to bottle it etc.

We have a small 'whiskey pension' as we call it. Buy 2 or 3 good bottles a year and intend to hold onto then for some time. We also buy a few bottles of whiskey we know is going out of production. Jameson 12 year old for example could be picked up for Ã¢â€šÂ¬50 and bottles are now going for Ã¢â€šÂ¬85 on irish whiskey auctions.

Worst case scenario we will have to drink our investment. ï¿¼

zooprune · 13-09-2019 11:28am

2500 is the minimum investment from what I can see and the relatively low amount is one of the attractions.
From any other research I've done the minimum in similar type investments can be as high as 6k which is way out of scope for me.

zooprune · 13-09-2019 11:35am

Thanks for the feedback folks,
T'would be a relatively small amount I'd be looking to invest.
This might sound parochial, but I have reservations about the directors set up and the lack of Irish voices that seem to be involved.
Did some more digging and came accross this article in the Sindo: https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/alternative-investor-whiskey-wealth-club-targets-24m-in-revenue-38432991.html?fbclid=IwAR3lsh10s0S5Oho709PAgLEQlRgGg49yFnH_UZKfNRWC0xcA1UadSxsc55c

Might leave it sit for a while and do some more research!

Thanks

zooprune · 13-09-2019 11:43am

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/agribusiness-and-food/powerscourt-investors-raise-a-glass-to-irish-whiskey-1.3715892

JMMCapital · 13-09-2019 12:43pm

Just invest in an Emerging market ETF or Gold/Silver ETF

Bob Harris · 13-09-2019 1:01pm

zooprune wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/agribusiness-and-food/powerscourt-investors-raise-a-glass-to-irish-whiskey-1.3715892

21 opened and in operation and another 25 distilleries on the way? Sounds like overkill to me.

Bob Harris · 16-09-2019 8:21am

Bob Harris wrote: »

21 opened and in operation and another 25 distilleries on the way? Sounds like overkill to me.

Funnily enough I was at a dart's comp at the weekend. Quite a lot of whiskey drinking going on. Settle the nerves maybe. nevertheless surprised at how popular it was.

daheff · 16-09-2019 2:00pm

zooprune wrote: »

2500 is the minimum investment from what I can see

where do you see that?

EndaHonesty wrote: »

The minimum investment is 1 pallet - 6 casks.

And where is this?

EndaHonesty · 16-09-2019 2:48pm

zooprune wrote: »

Hey there,

Just wondering if anyone has come across this crew?
https://whiskeywealthclub.com/

They seem to have a very good marketing spiel put together but as someone who has little or no knowledge of how the Whiskey industry operates I'd be keen to see if anyone else on here has come across them.

Thanks

The minimum investment is 1 pallet - 6 casks.

I bought a pallet of casks in the West Cork Distillery offering. The pallet cost just under 16,000.

We (the investors) were taken on a tour of the distillery to meet the owners of the distillery, to taste the whiskey and to see our casks, so I know the investment is genuine.

zooprune · 16-09-2019 5:25pm

on their investment prospectus they say the following:

3: WHOLESALE INVESTMENT OPPORTUNITY
This is where you come in. Each cask is offered at a very affordable
wholesale rate starting at just €2,550. Our price covers the cost
of the 200-liter oak cask, It also includes the 200 liters of Whiskey
inside the cask, plus storage and insurance for 5 years. The Whiskey’s
title and ownership is given to you, making it an asset-backed
investment while also giving you the freedom to sell at any time.

Darc19 · 16-09-2019 7:52pm

Remember that prices quoted do not include bottling, delivery, duty and vat on those costs.

Duty and vat on that duty is about €18 a bottle.

zooprune · 16-09-2019 8:05pm

Darc19 wrote: »

Remember that prices quoted do not include bottling, delivery, duty and vat on those costs.

Duty and vat on that duty is about €18 a bottle.

Yes,but would have thought that those costs wouldn’t be applicable if you’re selling the cask itself on after 3-5 years back to the distillery

Darc19 · 16-09-2019 8:14pm

zooprune wrote: »

Yes,but would have thought that those costs wouldn’t be applicable if you’re selling the cask itself on after 3-5 years.

I wouldn't expect it to be at much premium as the starting price is probably the very basic whiskey and that's worth about €6-€8 per bottle at best

I'd prefer a direct investment in a distillery cask from the distillery itself without a heavily advertised middle man taking a cut.

Connaught cask club is in Ballina and you also have the Nephin distillery.

zooprune · 16-09-2019 8:18pm

Darc19 wrote: »

I wouldn't expect it to be at much premium as the starting price is probably the very basic whiskey and that's worth about €6-€8 per bottle at best

I'd prefer a direct investment in a distillery cask from the distillery itself without a heavily advertised middle man taking a cut.

Yes,agree with you on that approach but it seems like the cost of entry with that route is considerably higher at around 6k which is far too high for me.

Jim2007 · 16-09-2019 11:37pm

EndaHonesty wrote: »

We (the investors) were taken on a tour of the distillery to meet the owners of the distillery, to taste the whiskey and to see our casks, so I know the investment is genuine.

So how exactly did you satisfy yourself that the casks you were shown were yours? How do you know that they were not the same ones shown to someone else earlier or to some other vendor later. Or even if the casks were there the following day after you left?

Jim2007 · 16-09-2019 11:40pm

zooprune wrote: »

Yes,agree with you on that approach but it seems like the cost of entry with that route is considerably higher at around 6k which is far too high for me.

Then consider the ‘pick & shovel’ merchants...

EndaHonesty · 17-09-2019 9:25am

Jim2007 wrote: »

So how exactly did you satisfy yourself that the casks you were shown were yours? How do you know that they were not the same ones shown to someone else earlier or to some other vendor later. Or even if the casks were there the following day after you left?

It's not rocket surgery Jim, each cask is numbered and labelled.
Those numbers and labels match the numbers on our certificates and invoices.

Are you really suggesting that West Cork Distillers would engage in fraud to embezzle money from unsuspecting people?

Jim2007 · 17-09-2019 10:15am

EndaHonesty wrote: »

It's not rocket surgery Jim, each cask is numbered and labelled.
Those numbers and labels match the numbers on our certificates and invoices.

Are you really suggesting that West Cork Distillers would engage in fraud to embezzle money from unsuspecting people?

All I'm suggesting is that if you are going to start buying commodities, then it is in your best interests to ensure that the normal standards of third party verification are applied.

There does not need to be any fraud for things to go wrong. You are dealing with very small companies and on average 7 or 8 out of 10 are likely to fail. In the event of a liquidation, if you can't prove that you own the cask AND it's contents, then it becomes part of the general assets of the company available to all creditors, including preferential creditors, which would rank before you.

At the end of the day, it is your money and your risk. Generally speaking my advice would be that if you are going to invest serious money in commodities then you should either require third party verification or recognise the additional risk in your investment model and require a higher return to compensate for the higher risk.

FernandoTorres · 17-09-2019 12:13pm

I find it incredible that after all that's happened in Ireland that people are still going for these kind of unregulated investments. You literally just have to look at the name for all sorts of alarm bells to be going off.

Anyway, here's some reading from Australia for anyone considering it. This is a highly respected, award winning distillery: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-08/nant-whisky-investors-staff-matthew-hayden-dudded-in-collapse/8882420

EndaHonesty · 17-09-2019 12:37pm

FernandoTorres wrote: »

I find it incredible that after all that's happened in Ireland that people are still going for these kind of unregulated investments. You literally just have to look at the name for all sorts of alarm bells to be going off.

Anyway, here's some reading from Australia for anyone considering it. This is a highly respected, award winning distillery: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-08/nant-whisky-investors-staff-matthew-hayden-dudded-in-collapse/8882420

My investment is with West Cork Distillers. A successful, profitable company with a proven track record.

Whiskey & Wealth Club are simply the promotors.

Mellor · 17-09-2019 1:11pm

FernandoTorres wrote:

Anyway, here's some reading from Australia for anyone considering it. This is a highly respected, award winning distillery: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-08/nant-whisky-investors-staff-matthew-hayden-dudded-in-collapse/8882420

Award winning, yes. Respected? Not really. They were very new to market.

They received stellar review from Jim Murray. Then interest in the cask ownership exceed capacity, but they sold more than they could and did a bunk.

EndaHonesty wrote: »

My investment is with West Cork Distillers. A successful, profitable company with a proven track record.

Is the buy back price guaranteed? Or a value they decide in future?
It's unlikely they'd fiddle the casks. You've zero control over the cask. But if the price is guaranteed, does it matter

EndaHonesty · 17-09-2019 1:47pm

Mellor wrote: »

Is the buy back price guaranteed? Or a value they decide in future?
It's unlikely they'd fiddle the casks. You've zero control over the cask. But if the price is guaranteed, does it matter

The future price is not guaranteed.

By making my investment I have entered into an agreement whereby my casks are stored for a period of up to 5 years.

After the initial 5 years I can extend the storage for €50 per cask per year. That includes insurance.

I can sell the casks at any point but realistically not until the liquid becomes whiskey after 3 years.

My own intention is to keep the casks for long term as a speculative punt. I hope to be retired in 30 years so a windfall then would be very useful...

https://www.thespiritsbusiness.com/2018/02/macallan-sets-new-record-for-1989-cask-sale/

Whiskey and Wealth Club

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