The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

Happyilylost wrote: »

Do the majority of clubs in Dublin have bars?

You thought there were none in the rest of Ireland, and a quick google showed you were wrong, so I am not going to move with the goalposts and chase another red herring.

You seem to get yourback up fairly quickly in this thread. I wasn't having a go or making some absurd argument relating to Dublin having bars and solid gold toilets. It was a question and I was genuinely interested in the answer.

And if you want to be a d**k about it I never said I thought there was none. I said few and far between. I've been in a few outside of Dublin myself I just didn't think it was the norm.

Hammer Archer wrote: »

The whole Mick Deegan thing has been done to death (he lived in Dublin before moving to Ashbourne but stayed playing with Dublin). The Eadestown goalkeeper (Niall Quinn's son) played with Dublin U21s. Glenn O'Reilly and Shane Clayton (both former Dublin minors and U21s) were living in Ratoath (and both used to play with Ratoath underage teams). There may be others but they're ones I can think of offhand.


I'm a Ratoath man so you could definitely say we benefited from the increase in population. However, we had to work very hard for it as a club. The population grew from around 500 in the 1990s to nearly 10000 in the last census (and is due to grow even more over the next 10 years going by plans). We didn't own our own ground and our pitch was on community ground that was shared with the local soccer club. When the population exploded in the late 90s, the club basically had no choice but to buy and develop their own grounds to cope with the new population. With these new grounds (pre-recession) came a huge mortgage and huge repayments that the club has struggled with at times. And that's not even mentioning the huge amount of volunteer work that has gone into underage training to help get Ratoath from a middling Junior football club to a senior football and hurling team regularly making the knockout stages in Meath.

Regarding Ratoath's players on the Meath team this year, Bryan McMahon's family are from Clare, Conor McGill's is from Sligo. Daragh Kelly for the Meath hurlers used to play with the Dublin U21 hurlers but apart from him, I can't think of any Meath player who would be considered a Dublin fan making a mark with a Meath county team.

There was a Bryan McMahon that played with Clare in 98/99 that transferred to Skryne. Is he a father of Bryan McMahon who plays with Ratoath?

omega man wrote: »

It’s been posted already (but usually ignored) that the funding was always exclusively for underage development, boys and girls in both codes.

Dublin desperately needed this investment as the sport (our sport!) was dead or dying in many areas throughout the capital. The money wasn’t thrown at us either. It took considerable efforts to put a plan in place, secure the funding and importantly to successfully implement it. The rest is history as they say.

Now I’d imagine that attracting kids to play Gaelic Games isn’t as challenging in most towns or cities outside of dublin and perhaps that’s reflected in the funding gap?

Every town and city has the same competing sports as Dublin. So it’s equally as challenging.

Forge83 wrote: »

Every town and city has the same competing sports as Dublin. So it’s equally as challenging.

But were starting from a base where GAA was and is a dominant sport rather than a fringe sport.

Forge83 wrote: »

Every town and city has the same competing sports as Dublin. So it’s equally as challenging.

I dont think you can compare the two, in smaller towns the GAA is deep rooted in the community for over 100 years, this is quite simply not the case in new suburbs etc in the cities. GAA is also the dominant sport and indeed most prominent community organisation in most areas of rural Ireland

Tombo2001 wrote: »

When we talk about 'funding' for underage sports -

This is money going on what exactly....?

Games participation fundamentally.

And by the way it’s still a real problem in many high population areas of dublin like clondalkin etc.

- I am 40 and from Dublin 15 and can say that GAA was not that popular in the late 1990s and early 00s.
I followed as I played for peregrines for a few underage years but even then without social media it was the newspapers where we went for information.

St Peregrines had a pitch in hartstown park - a council pitch and a steel 40ft dressing room.
They were the only GAA club in the area - still are but now they have a clubhouse, brilliant pitch, mini stadium - its a proper set up. Far superior to any Soccer club in the area

There is a GAA club in Clonee and one or two down castle knock way...tyrrellstown a more recent addition.
Very few GAA clubs in a massive catchment area.

Soccer was the sport in greater Dublin 15 -- Some clubs below I can list from 20 years ago - not sure if they are all still going

Mochtas
Hartstown
Mountview boys
Verona
Corduff Boys
Huntstown Villa
Whitestown United
Ladyswell
Clonee United
Clonsilla FC
Clonsilla United

Soccer was by far the sport in the area - GAA didnt get much of look in unless Dublin got into the business end of the championship.
Peregrines was a brutal set up in 1990s and were crying out for players - not so these days.

Soccer is low maintenance compared to GAA. Lots of small clubs put out teams, Some only one. No high membership charges, lots of local authority pitches and sponsors and a few quid from lotto pays for jerseys and nets.

Not slagging them by the way. Good way for lads to spend a Sunday morning, but it is far easier to maintain than our thing. In working class clubs I've noticed that often where a family moves there is nothing to replace them. Where clubs have good underage then they survive, but a lot of clubs, including traditionally strong ones are struggling and amalgamating for some grades.

Unless a club retains a central presence in a community and strong connection to schools, it will decline.

Not the case in Galway but it could be more common in other counties. Was only asking a question.

Edit: I mean the bar part. Facilities wise the majority would be decent.

Lets look at Meath population closer. Meath is a good example of how population gurantees nothing. When Meath was sucessful and winning All Irelands Meaths was a rural county with not a stand out population, it was an average population. Since Meath population has exploded in last 15 years, Meath has had it worst decade since 1920s . Meath population massively increases, Meath football declines.

Regards Meath population firstly it guratees nothing look at Wicklow , look at Antrim ( I know half population are not interested) look at limerick ( hurling 2 title in 80 years up to last year, no football title since 1890s ) look at kildare when they disappeared from 1930s to early 90s. Also Meaths population growth is with people who have very little connection to the county. Mostly Dubs. 82% of people who live in Cork are from Cork. In the last census 27 % of people who live in Meath are from Meath.

Meath won 7 All Irelands from 1930s to 1999. Meaths population exploded in 00s. So this population growth happened before Meaths All Ireland win. Meath when they won 7 All Irelands was an average midlands county. Yes there is a boom on east coast at moment. Meath pre 2000 , Meath was very much a more rural county and there was few job opportunities. The unemployment rate in Meath in 80s was 20%. Yes Meaths pop and affluence is prior 2000. Meaths population grew by 5 % in last 5 years.

Meaths population in 1996. Meath won All Ireland in 1996.

Meath population in 1996 was 109000
Meath population in 2019 is now 195000

Meath last reached a Final in 2001
Meaths population in 2002 was 134000.
Meath population in 1996 was 109000
Meaths population now is 195000

kerrys population in 1996 was 120000
Mayo population in 1996 was 110000
Donegal population in 1996 was 120000.
Meath population in 1996 was 109000.

When Meath played Mayo in 1996 Mayo had a bigger population. When Meath won All Ireland in 1996 Meaths population was smaller then Mayo or Kerry or Donegal.
( The growth in population in Meath and kildare in last ten years is the fastest growth any county outside Dublin has witnessed in the history of the Irish state.)

So Meath population when Meath last won Sam was lower then Mayo Donegal kerry. Meath population has grown by 50% since Meath last won Sam. Basically Meaths population when Meath last won Sam was 100000 now it is 200000. So there is quite a difference between Meath population today and Meath in 1999.

But Meath is an average county compared Dublin Cork and Galway up 2000. Dublin Cork Galway are the three most iconic world famous Irish counties. Is Meath a iconic world famous county?. Cork is centre of ecomonic social and cultural life in Munster for hundreds of years. Galway is centre of economic social and cultural life in West of Ireland for hundreds of years. Dublin is centre of economic social and cultural life in Ireland for hundreds of years. These counties are no surprise in the top 5 most sucessful counties. Meath is and never was a centre of social economic cultural in Ireland. The most u could say about Meath up to 2000 was it had good land and rich history going back to Ancient times and a yearly concert in Slane Castle. After that it doesnt standout like a Dublin kerry Cork or a Galway.

In the years 1930 to 2000 Meath was an avarage midlands county with average population with very few economic outlets other then farming. In Irish society Meath was not a standout county in stature. It stood out in football terms. But not in other social economic cultural and political spheres.

Meath won 3 All Irelands up to 1980s. 3 All Irelands is average for strong sucessful gaelic football county. It doesnt look much to Dublin or kerrys haul or kilkenny hurlers recenty. But 3 All Irelands is a massive haul in football terms outside kerry and Dublin. Great sucessful strong traditional football counties like Tyrone have 3 All Irelands , Offfaly and Mayo have 3 All Irelands, kildare have 4 All Irelands, Donegal another great football county have 2 All Irelands, Armagh a great football county have 1 All Ireland. Around 3 All Irelands is the average for strong football counties. Meath are not up at kerry levels but they are up with Cork and Galway levels. Counties that should be in top 5. Meath up to 2000 shouldn't have being. Meath have gone back to the pack falling from top of the football table since Meath popualtion has nearly doubled. A big population gurantees nothing.

Population growth on eastern seaboard is now socially disruptive of existing communities. That has to impact on GAA.

Someone made the point that GAA is highly dependent on a feeling of belonging and identity. That just doesn't exist now in Dublin and in large parts of the commuter belt where houses are just places to store people when they are not spending 70 hours in work or traffic! On top of that many people moving into existing communities have no interest in them.


As I said before I would be pessimistic regarding Dublin as I don't see anything other than frenetic high rise construction with no provision for anything other than getting people to work. That is not conducive to community based organisations like GAA

But in the long term there are some good signs for Meath and kildare. It simple as this if Meath and kildare can tap into population growth in the county , it could be a positive gamechanger. But there is no gurantee as examples above like Wicklow, Antrim , Limerick , Dublin 1930 to 2010 have shown.

1 Meath and kildare have now this year recieved increased funding and coachs and so have louth and Wicklow. Meath had 3 full time coachs , kildare had 4. Dublin had 70 plus since mid 00s. Meath ans kildare both have 15 full.time coachs and 22 coachs in total each from this year. Yes it still behind Dublin. But it still 5 times more then before. And they were only introduced this year after both counties have had sucess. Also 4 counties have recieved increased finding circa 300000 annually. Again this can only be a positive. The people in charge of these programmes believe it will take 5 or 6 years before it impacts senior team.

2 The second reasons is population explosion in both counties. It doesnt guratees nothing.
For example look at Wicklow , big population yet no provicial title , look at Antrim big population yet no sucess since 1940s. look at limerick big population no Munster title since 1890s in football and 2 hurling All-Irelands in 80 years , look at kildare big population and no sucess from 1930s to 1990 and finally look at Dublin from 1940s to 2010 Dublin underachieved with huge population. Population gurantees nothing.

Also growth in both counties is Dubs who support and want kids to play for Dublin or have no interest in gaa. 70% of people who live in Meath are not from Meath , 20% of people in live in Cork or Donegal are not from Donegal.

However if Meath and kildare can tap into population growth this could be massive. Dublin tapping into a new denographic has being one of keys to Dublins current sucess. St Vincents and other clubs traditional Dublin clubs r still strong but the Kilmacud Crokes ballyboden and Cualas have brought Dublin to a new level. 25 years ago there was little gaa in south side Dublin suburbia. There has been a massive growth of gaa in middle class gaelgoir Dublins south side suburbs recently. This has brought a whole new demographic to Dublin gaa. Basically the parents of so many of these footballers are from the country. So many from kerry or Donegal. They came up to Dublin became civil servants etc and brought a love of gaa and passed it to their kids. Their kids grew up and many of them became Dublins current great generation. The darling of the hill was Jimmy Keaveny from Marino in 70s Charlie Redmond from Finglas in 90s and now its Con Callaghan from Dalkey, Bonos parish who is currently hero of the hill. This has been one of the reasons for Dublins sucess , the explosion of popularity of gaa in Dublins southside suburbs.

This is where Meath and kildare need to tap into. Both need to keep football alive in the heartlands of the county eg kildare mid part and south. Meath in Northern villages and traditional clubs like Skyrne. But both need to tap into new suburbs in both counties eg Meath south east Rataoth Ashbourne Dunshaughlin and kildare eg Maynooth leixlip. Families who move to the area who support Dublin will have no interest in Meath or kildare. But familes who move to the area who have no interest in gaa or little , their children who get involved in gaa they could be next future stars for Meath and kildare. Or families who have country parents who have moved to Meath recently , there children could be source of new players for Meath. Conor McGill family come from Sligo and Byran McMahons family come from Clare. Both are from Rataoth, where there has been a massive population explosion in this area.

The population growth in both counties is so large that the numbers could be there to lead to sucess. Kildare and Meath are following the Dublin blueprint on the ground and coachs are going into populated areas to promote gaa. It worked in Dublin and Dublin had unprecedented sucess.

If Meath and kildare tap into this new demographic eg suburbs in north kildare or south east Meath sucessfully this potentially could lead to huge positives and benefits and yes sucess for both counties. Maybe even unprecedented sucess for both counties. If eitheir county doesn't tap into or is unable it will probaly mean that those counties will not be sucessful.

Meath had a run of 80 years of sucess. We look like we could be the new Cavan. Something extraordinary wud need to happen to stop this. Meaths population doubling in 10 years going from 100000 to 200000 in 15 years going from smaller population then Mayo, going from rural county to county with has in parts become suburbia , that is an extraordinary demographic change and could be the factor that cud kickstart Meath.

When a county has decades sucess when stops it seem to stop for decades eg Wexford after 1918 , kildare after1930s , Cavan and Mayo after 1950s. Cavan had no underage sucess for decades until recently. And Cavans population declined after 1950s. Meaths has exploded in last 15 years. It has had no benefit whatsoever to football in the county in last 15 years . However if it is tapped into it could be pivotal.

Meaths football can be divided into two eras demographically
1 1930s 1940s 1950s 1960s. It was thought that west of Ireland families brought love of gaa to Meath. This is wrong. Movement to Meath was in 30s 40s and 50s when Meath had sucess. So many of Meaths players in first successful Meath teams came from old Meaths families in the area for generations. It was the next generation that was west of Ireland parents.

2 Meath teams of 1970s 1980s and 1990s these are players many of the players had parents from the west eg O Rourke born in leitrim , Coyle family ftom Donegal, O Malley family from Mayo , Mark Reilly family like kerry. And many more. The current Dublin team and Meath of 80s and 90s many of their parents came from.the west and brought a love of gaa from the west. The Meath team of 80s and 90s and current Dublin team are examples of how migration from western seaboard, massively helped benefit a counties fortunes.

3 The next phase of Meath football could it be like Dublin current sucess which has been built in new area, Dublins south suburbs . Could suburbs in Meath south east kickstart and be a strong foundation for future Meath sucess. That could be the extraordinary factor that stops Meath becoming the new Cavan after 1950s..Time will tell. I could be wrong I could be right who knows. But I believe fhere is a massive new population in Meath and in kildare and if it is tapped into it can only be a positive in the future. Time will tell.

Happyilylost wrote: »

Where did you pull this stat out of? I think your mixing it up with Galway hadn't beaten a top team since 2001. Then we beat Kerry last year the hoodoo was lifted and all the children were happy again. In 2001 we beat three teams with All Ireland titles on route to our own an All Ireland!

Kerry are not All Ireland winning team. So Kerry dont count. How did I come to this stat. Ishould have said Galway have beaten 3 All Ireland winners since 1967 that was Meath in 2001 and Offaly in 1973 and Armagh in 2001. Galway did not beat three All Ireland winners in 2001.

Well Galway didnt win a championship match in Croke Park between 2001 and 2017. They didnt defeat All Ireland winning team in that period. Between 1998 and 2001 Galway outside Conancht defeated Derry and kildare in 1998 and kildare in 2000 and Meath 2001. Only Meath of those teams won an All Ireland. And the teams who they defeated in backdoor only Armagh were All Ireland winning team. Between 1984 and 1997 Galway didnt win a championship match in Croke Park, there was no backdoor, so Galway didnt win beat anyone outside Conancht between 1984 and 1997.

From 1967 to 1983 Galway won only 4 times in championship in Croke Park .

1983 Galway defeated Donegal in All Ireland semi final ( solid Donegal team but not an All Ireland winning team or even a contender)
1974 Galway defeated Donegal in All Ireland semi final ( solid Donegal but not one of top teams in the country or All Ireland winning team)
1973 Galway defeated Offaly the reigning All Ireland champions. Galway only victory over All Ireland winner since 1967 along with Meath in 2001 and Armagh in 2001.
1971 Galway defeated Down in All Ireland semi final ( But that was a Down team in decline, most of the great players from 60s were retired , it was a completely new Down team in 71, it was an average Down team in 1971)

So thats how I came to that stat. Its amazing stat especially when you compare to Mayo record v top teams All Ireland winners in last 15 years. Mayo have defeated in championship Dublin in 2012 who were All Ireland reigning champions and 7 times winners, Mayo defeated Cork in 2010 who were reigning All Ireland winners , Mayo defeated kerry in 1996 who would win Sam in 1997.

If to include top top teams Galway have beaten since 1967 u could include kerry last year , but teams Galway have beaten that were All Ireland winners or top top team ( in top 2 or 3 teams in the country in any given year ) since 1967 outside Connacht would be
1 Offaly 1973
2 Meath 2001
3 Armagh 2001
4 Kerry 2018. ( But kerry arent All Ireland winners yet)

Derry and kildare were good teams in 1998 to 2000 but I dont think they deserve the title as All Ireland winning team or in top 2 or 3 in the country. Between 1996 and 2001 the three best teams in the country by a distance were Meath Galway and kerry with 2 All Irelands apiece in 6 years.
So thats how I came to that stat.