Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

Tell me how · 10-09-2019 09:55PM

Itssoeasy wrote: »

I’ve just watched the video of the actual prorogation happening in the House of Lords last night and the speaker John bercow waking back into a half empty commons chamber. Firstly he didn’t sit in the speakers chair but stood in front of it. Now, I’ve never seen a prorogation happen before so have no idea if the speaker walking back into the chamber is part of it, but did anyone else find it a very strange atmosphere ? I know it was in the middle of the night, but it was a very depressing scene.

I was watching it live and it was surreal. One of those incidents where you know this is going to be showed in to the future as a significant moment.

It was yet another plot twist in the mother of all plot twists that is Brexit.
Bercow resigning and a good portion of the days debate being given over to people lauding him for his time in the chair. And then, him sticking it to the Tories in the manner in which he is going, his reaction to the prorogation and then coming back in to the HoC and having what looked like most of the opposition line up to shake his hand.

Mental with a capital M.

FrancieBrady · 10-09-2019 09:56PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Trump's wall and Johnson's bridge. Equally ludicrous. Actually, that's not fair. Trump's wall would be cheaper to build.

The prospect of a 'bridge' is to allow the DUP to talk up achieving something. It will be quietly shelved down the road. A bridge too far.

prawnsambo · 10-09-2019 09:58PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Daily Telegraph reporting tomorrow that Boris Johnson want regulatory border in the Irish sea.

He has offered DUP a veto on future changes to the arrangement (so long as they can't unilaterally leave it, this could be acceptable to the EU)

He has also offered to build a bridge.

I think he may have responded to their dismay with "build a bridge and get over it".

I wonder how much of a fudge he's pulled on them? There'd be precious little time to go over the fine detail before they have to vote on it.

Spanish Eyes · 10-09-2019 09:59PM

Itssoeasy wrote: »

I’ve just watched the video of the actual prorogation happening in the House of Lords last night and the speaker John bercow waking back into a half empty commons chamber. Firstly he didn’t sit in the speakers chair but stood in front of it. Now, I’ve never seen a prorogation happen before so have no idea if the speaker walking back into the chamber is part of it, but did anyone else find it a very strange atmosphere ? I know it was in the middle of the night, but it was a very depressing scene.

It was a very sad indictment of the so called Democracy that the Tories, Hard Brexiteers, and the Brexit Party profess to espouse re Brexit.

Very sad day for Democracy in UK, but spun as a five day break out of the ordinary suspension for the Conference Season. See how it is being spun?

I honestly cannot believe the lack of manic reaction as in marches, and so on regarding this. Can anyone else explain? Are UK people just punch drunk and couldn't care less, or do they care, but realise nothing will change now.

I cannot believe it myself. But must give myself a kick now and then and realise UK is not Ireland is it? Such a tolerant nation they are, well up to now anyway.

Mr.Nice Guy · 10-09-2019 09:59PM

The DUP didn't do media after the Johnson meeting which makes you wonder how well it really went. Here's an Ulster Unionist MLA's take on it:

https://twitter.com/alcham49/status/1171494343057670144

An Ciarraioch · 10-09-2019 10:09PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

From the Telegraph but paywalled

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/09/10/irish-backstop-could-boris-johnson-have-answer-solve-brexit/

The key word there is future changes. - so they would not have a say on it actually coming in to force.

Unfortunately, once you click into it through the Beeb's Tomorrow's Papers Today, the full story moves on to trusted traders and alternative arrangements:

https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/1171525686365843456

Spanish Eyes · 10-09-2019 10:10PM

I saw a picture of the DUP delegation following the meeting, all smiles and such.

I personally don't believe it went all their way regarding NI only Backstop, but we shall see.

A few billion and a suspension or delay of the Cash for Ash enquiry might sway them.

But SSM and abortion rights are on the cards, and there is always the threat of Direct Rule too. Which applies to both sides.

Who holds all the cards here?

A Dub in Glasgo · 10-09-2019 10:13PM

hill16bhoy wrote: »

They feel it does, and that's all that matters - so it does matter. They feel they're being chucked under the bus by the rest of UK, that their status is being changed without their consent. That's an entirely fair point of view.

It's not for me or you to tell people with a British identity in NI how that identity or their right to a British identity is being affected.

Others so inclined could ask, how would a hard border weaken people in NI's right to an Irish identity? As they'd still have the right to an Irish passport and all that - devil's advocate argument.
.

Sorry if I missed it in all the updates on this thread but what is your solution to the Brexit conundrum?

jm08 · 10-09-2019 10:18PM

Just watched Jeffrey Donaldson interview on Primetime. He seemed to be approving enough about the all-Ireland agric. part. Delighted with the support from Bertie and Michael Martin. His big worry though was access and tariffs to the GB market.

From what I got from the interview is that he realises the game is up and is now holding out for some sort of sweetner from Boris (such as making NI a tariff free zone). They could probably sell it as a kick in the balls to the ROI as NI would have a competitive edge.

I heard Newton Emerson earlier on rte radio this evening. He commented that Bertie's idea of giving the DUP a say because of the pariety of esteem issue would force them back into Stormont where they would have to back down on an Irish language Act, same sex marriage and abortion. Pondered whether they could swallow all that backing down. Maybe Bertie is a genius at deal making after all!

An Ciarraioch · 10-09-2019 10:22PM

https://twitter.com/flaviblePolitic/status/1171532688991256577

listermint · 10-09-2019 10:23PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Sorry if I missed it in all the updates on this thread but what is your solution to the Brexit conundrum?

Remain.

Like the absolute spanners in the DUP should have been campaigning for from the start.

Its almost like they're all idiots who don't know their own dup history.
Oh wait....

They never learn. Torys always up to something.

hotmail.com · 10-09-2019 10:29PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Daily Telegraph reporting tomorrow that Boris Johnson want regulatory border in the Irish sea.

He has offered DUP a veto on future changes to the arrangement (so long as they can't unilaterally leave it, this could be acceptable to the EU)

He has also offered to build a bridge.

The bridge proposal is a non runner. I doubt the DUP will fall for that.

Kermit.de.frog · 10-09-2019 10:30PM

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Unfortunately, once you click into it through the Beeb's Tomorrow's Papers Today, the full story moves on to trusted traders and alternative arrangements:

Yup, Peter Foster of the Telegraph saying it is a load nonsense and EU won't agree to it.

Professor Moriarty · 10-09-2019 10:40PM

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

https://twitter.com/flaviblePolitic/status/1171532688991256577

The seat projections should give Johnson pause for thought. Should but won't.

J Mysterio · 10-09-2019 10:41PM

This very interesting article was posted in the other thread, and so sharing it here also.

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

this is interesting
https://www.ft.com/content/1955d464-c926-11e9-af46-b09e8bfe60c0?segmentId=09cf3415-e461-2c4a-a8cc-80acc4846679

the paragraph where cameron tried to out muscle the EU reminds of how we got to this point!

It is paywalled if you click the link, but google the article title and you can access it no problem.

prawnsambo · 10-09-2019 10:41PM

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

https://twitter.com/flaviblePolitic/status/1171532688991256577

That poll looks quite like what the Tory ex-spad who was on the TV the other day was saying their own research was producing. I think he was saying 287 seats for the Tories. Interesting.

Also worth looking at the supplementary poll questions on that thread. It's mind boggling how confused they seem to be.

hotmail.com · 10-09-2019 10:43PM

So the meeting today is more significant than the official statements are making it out to be. And Boris is seeking a version of a Northern Ireland backstop.

J Mysterio · 10-09-2019 10:46PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Also worth looking at the supplementary poll questions on that thread. It's mind boggling how confused they seem to be.

Jeepers, yes, massively confused. I think the key thing to remember is most arent quite as obsessive about Brexit as some of us are. They just dont follow it so closely and are not au fait with the detail.

Tell me how · 10-09-2019 10:48PM

It's from the Sun, so, you know.

NIGEL Farage has spelt out his price for an election deal with the Tories - to give his Brexit Party a free run in 80 to 90 parliamentary seats.

In exchange, the anti-EU party chief has told No10 he would not to field any candidates against sitting Tory MPs and in the Conservatives’ target seats.

Also, I listened to a bit of Farage's show this morning and he used the phrase 'Do we need to drain the swamp completely and start again?'. Straight from the you know who playbook.

Professor Moriarty · 10-09-2019 10:49PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

That poll looks quite like what the Tory ex-spad who was on the TV the other day was saying their own research was producing. I think he was saying 287 seats for the Tories. Interesting.

Also worth looking at the supplementary poll questions on that thread. It's mind boggling how confused they seem to be.

If you call Labour a Remain party, then those seat projections would translate into:
Remain: 348
Leave: 294

Spanish Eyes · 10-09-2019 10:55PM

On the Island of Ireland N and S I reckon most would breathe a big sigh of relief if an all Island of Ireland solution could be found now.

The so called Mainland don't give a F about NI anyway and would be glad to see that monkey off their backs.

But I wonder how it would work out frankly, without any trouble now.

ArmaniJeanss · 10-09-2019 10:56PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Daily Telegraph reporting tomorrow that Boris Johnson want regulatory border in the Irish sea.

He has offered DUP a veto on future changes to the arrangement (so long as they can't unilaterally leave it, this could be acceptable to the EU)

He has also offered to build a bridge.

'Devil is in the detail, but a veto on changes seems potentially problematic to me.
Some EU modifications in standards seems like the sort of thing which could be labelled as a change.
Other ascension countries joining the EU, would Stormont theoretically have a veto on that?

We can never allow a situation where the ROI is not 100% aligned to the rest of the EU, therefore NI must remain aligned to us so what purpose does this veto serve?

Itssoeasy · 10-09-2019 11:03PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

On the Island of Ireland N and S I reckon most would breathe a big sigh of relief if an all Island of Ireland solution could be found now.

The so called Mainland don't give a F about NI anyway and would be glad to see that monkey off their backs.

But I wonder how it would work out frankly, without any trouble now.

Well I wouldn't say the "mainland" doesn't give a F about NI, but I think it's clear the DUP away over estimate how much any U.K. Government will go to bat for them.

hotmail.com · 10-09-2019 11:08PM

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

On the Island of Ireland N and S I reckon most would breathe a big sigh of relief if an all Island of Ireland solution could be found now.

The so called Mainland don't give a F about NI anyway and would be glad to see that monkey off their backs.

But I wonder how it would work out frankly, without any trouble now.

Well I wouldn't say the "mainland" doesn't give a F about NI, but I think it's clear the DUP away over estimate how much any U.K. Government will go to bat for them.

London media and British people in general, are looking forward to the election so they no longer have to talk about the DUP.

Itssoeasy · 10-09-2019 11:11PM

hotmail.com wrote: »

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

On the Island of Ireland N and S I reckon most would breathe a big sigh of relief if an all Island of Ireland solution could be found now.

The so called Mainland don't give a F about NI anyway and would be glad to see that monkey off their backs.

But I wonder how it would work out frankly, without any trouble now.

Well I wouldn't say the "mainland" doesn't give a F about NI, but I think it's clear the DUP away over estimate how much any U.K. Government will go to bat for them.

London media and British people in general, are looking forward to the election so they no longer have to talk about the DUP.

That's a fair comment. I can remember when the media were learning about the DUP after the last election. The journey of realisation to exactly what the prime minister had gotten the uk into by getting into bed with the DUP was fascinating to watch from an Irish standpoint.

Akrasia · 10-09-2019 11:19PM

The Irish Times are reporting that Johnson has rejected the NI only backstop....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/dup-says-johnson-confirmed-rejection-of-northern-ireland-only-backstop-1.4014142?mode=amp

Water John · 10-09-2019 11:20PM

The polls have informed the change of tack by Johnson in the last two days. He's attempting to swing back to the centre as he realises there is no more votes to be won on the far right. Without the centre, he'll never get an overall majority in a GE.

mcmoustache · 10-09-2019 11:26PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If you call Labour a Remain party, then those seat projections would translate into:
Remain: 348
Leave: 294

If that sort of polling pans out into seats, then that throws another spanner into the clown show. I can see Labour being onboard with some kind of second referendum to avoid a no-deal scenario.

This is like a sudden death penalty shootout where each team has taken 11 kicks with no end in sight. While part of me wants this resolved as quickly as possible, I'm still fascinated by the drama. And it's hard to see an end to it.

WomanSkirtFan8 · 10-09-2019 11:27PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

On the Island of Ireland N and S I reckon most would breathe a big sigh of relief if an all Island of Ireland solution could be found now.

The so called Mainland don't give a F about NI anyway and would be glad to see that monkey off their backs.

Absolute true and they'd happily throw them under a train at the first opportunity they get. :cool:

Spanish Eyes · 10-09-2019 11:27PM

Akrasia wrote: »

The Irish Times are reporting that Johnson has rejected the NI only backstop....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/dup-says-johnson-confirmed-rejection-of-northern-ireland-only-backstop-1.4014142?mode=amp

That means there will be one. He is a known liar.

But who knows? Just my opinion of the man's tactics.

Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

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