Is Ireland too insular?

JackieChang · 07-09-2019 08:50AM

Being on the Irish internet for the last 15 or so years I've noticed that Irish people are extremely stuck up our own arses, basically think they are god's gift to the world.

I'm on the irish reddit forum quite a bit and they absolutely hate Brits and Irish Americans. And it's funny, for a crowd of people who claim to hate the Brits, 95% of the posts there are about the UK. In fact there's currently a photo of Boris Johnson sitting at the top of the page with 2,100 upvotes. Also constant complaining about the famine and "800 Years". Teenagers who never had a difficult day in their life talking about suffering and up the RA etc.

It's like the Cork Dublin thing. Cork people hate Dublin, but they can't shut up about it. Meanwhile Dublin doesn't even know they exist.

Any foreigner taking a glance into the Irish web-o-sphere would think the country is a very unwelcoming place.

They also hate anybody who doesn't know every single detail about Ireland.

"Jesus, I was talking to some lad from Ethiopia and he thought Ireland was in the UK, what a feckin eejit. Everybody in the world should know everything about our country".

Subcomandante Marcos · 07-09-2019 09:00AM

JackieChang wrote: »

Being on the Irish internet for the last 15 or so years I've noticed that Irish people are extremely stuck up our own arses, basically think they are god's gift to the world.

I'm on the irish reddit forum quite a bit and they absolutely hate Brits and Irish Americans. And it's funny, for a crowd of people who claim to hate the Brits, 95% of the posts there are about the UK. In fact there's currently a photo of Boris Johnson sitting at the top of the page with 2,100 upvotes. Also constant complaining about the famine and "800 Years". Teenagers who never had a difficult day in their life talking about suffering and up the RA etc.

It's like the Cork Dublin thing. Cork people hate Dublin, but they can't shut up about it. Meanwhile Dublin doesn't even know they exist.

Any foreigner taking a glance into the Irish web-o-sphere would think the country is a very unwelcoming place.

They also hate anybody who doesn't know every single detail about Ireland.

"Jesus, I was talking to some lad from Ethiopia and he thought Ireland was in the UK, what a feckin eejit. Everybody in the world should know everything about our country".

ElectronVolt · 07-09-2019 09:01AM

Is ireland insular? No I don't think it is at all. It's quite the opposite compared to quite a few places I've lived, including the UK and France. France can be shockingly insular on topics like food for example.

I find ireland can be very lacking in self confidence though and has a tendency to constantly undermine itself with discussion about "only in Ireland".

I'd say a lot of it comes from having been on the receiving end of having been put down for centuries by Anglo centric culture that has told us we are thick or worthless.

Just as an example, I have older relatives in Dublin who use the term "oh that's a bit Irish of him" to mean obtuse! I keep pointing out it's a bizzare phrase to use.

I've heard it used plenty of times in England though and I've been told things like about how you "got your Irish out" when I was annoyed with someone at a meeting and had to make a strong point.

Basically, we're a culture that has been abused so much over the years that we have weird lack of self confidence and I think this thread actually shows that too.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 07-09-2019 09:21AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

The independence of Ireland generated a social and cultural shift which may be unparalleled outside of Czarist and USSR Russia. Irish republicanism went from being a fringe movement, during the years of constitutional nationalism, to becoming ingrained in the people's outlook.

Quite a statement and untrue. Also the past is not today. Ireland is well plugged into the global world, particularly the Anglosphere.

I didn't start this thread in Current Affairs because I think this goes beyond politics. I believe that we, as Irish people, have a tendency towards placing ourselves at the centre of everything.

I have noticed that in any discussion -- say, of world cuisine, the Irish will inevitably swoop on it by extolling the virtues of blaa, or coddle, or their ma's apple tart.

There is nothing unique in any country or culture placing themselves at the centre of everything but we do it a bit less than the rest of the Anglosphere and probably the world. We don’t really extol our cuisine and nobody likes coddle except ironically.

discussion of Brexit, North Korea or global warming always descend to small questions like "what does this mean for Ireland?" The Irish news media is fairly unique, to my knowledge, in framing every international news story in terms of an Irish significance (what does Global Warming mean for farmers in North Tipp?)

Every news service does that, and Brexit clearly affects us as does global warming. RTE covers the US and Britain fairly thoroughly. The rest of Europe not so much. As for Brexit itself, our nearest and dearest neighbour entered into that fiasco without a thought for Ireland and the GFA, even though part of their jurisdiction extends to this island.

Irish people often seem to have a magnetic draw to one another when abroad. That's nice, but then you are inevitably drawn into a long and detailed conversation into 'how things are at home'.

I definitely don’t do that and I wonder how common it is, or unique it is.

I love my country, and I love its language and its history. I'm not some Irish-hating wannabe west-brit. But we can be too introspective, too insular. Why?

It’s a bit odd to accuse Irish people or news of being introspective relative to other countries. We cover Britain and the US far more than they cover us. Fairly minor events in the US, of no importance here, like anti fa or the BLM or a school shooting, can make the front page news or lead RTE coverage. European politics, the individual countries not the EU, are not covered enough but we do better than the U.K.

Meanwhile RTE doesn’t cover what isn’t covered in the Anglosphere news coverage. If Yemen isn’t bring covered by NBC, or the BBC then RTE won’t. Mexico could have a major mass killing and RTE wouldn’t mention it. I first heard of the Indian moon landing yesterday.

Our insularity is basically the insularity of the American dominated English speaking world, but less than the rest of that world.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 07-09-2019 09:25AM

The op does point out something that is unique to Ireland. Thinking that fairly universal traits are unique to Ireland.

07-09-2019 09:34AM

JackieChang wrote: »

Being on the Irish internet for the last 15 or so years I've noticed that Irish people are extremely stuck up our own arses, basically think they are god's gift to the world.

I'm on the irish reddit forum quite a bit and they absolutely hate Brits and Irish Americans. And it's funny, for a crowd of people who claim to hate the Brits, 95% of the posts there are about the UK. In fact there's currently a photo of Boris Johnson sitting at the top of the page with 2,100 upvotes. Also constant complaining about the famine and "800 Years". Teenagers who never had a difficult day in their life talking about suffering and up the RA etc.

It's like the Cork Dublin thing. Cork people hate Dublin, but they can't shut up about it. Meanwhile Dublin doesn't even know they exist.

Any foreigner taking a glance into the Irish web-o-sphere would think the country is a very unwelcoming place.

They also hate anybody who doesn't know every single detail about Ireland.

"Jesus, I was talking to some lad from Ethiopia and he thought Ireland was in the UK, what a feckin eejit. Everybody in the world should know everything about our country".

I nominate this for post of the month.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 07-09-2019 09:36AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I nominate this for post of the month.

Ironically I hope.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 07-09-2019 09:42AM

sdanseo wrote: »

Insular in our thoughts - no, I don't think so. We are as a populace well educated on global affairs when you compare to the likes of the UK and US.

Insular in our ways - absolutely.
A mundane example. I work in logistics. I deal with the continent while other departments deal with the UK and more others Ireland.
I will regularly get emails or phone calls asking for a cost to ship freight measured in feet and inches.

The Europeans would laugh me off the face of the earth if I didn't convert before sending the request.

It all boils down to our hardiness. "Ah it'll be grand".
Great on the one hand. We are more impervious to offence and being aggrieved which makes conflict less likely.
Abysmal from the point of view that we are seen from the outside as set in our ways, backwards and even irrelevant.

I’m not sure what this anecdote proves. Or even means. Or what’s particularly Irish about inches and feet.

JackieChang · 07-09-2019 09:46AM

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Ironically I hope.

Truth hurts I guess.

07-09-2019 09:47AM

JackieChang wrote: »

Truth hurts I guess.

Yeah, my sides maybe.

EmmetSpiceland · 07-09-2019 09:48AM

Well it, certainly, can’t be said that we’re overly sensitive to the, slightest, perceived, “criticism”.

To be sure, to be sure.

Fourier · 07-09-2019 09:48AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I have noticed that in any discussion -- say, of world cuisine, the Irish will inevitably swoop on it by extolling the virtues of blaa, or coddle, or their ma's apple tart.

We are not by a long shot the worst when it comes to this. In fact I've never really seen an Irish person do this.

Try the French, Italians and Greeks who nearly reach the point of thinking their cuisine is more moral and edifying. Having spent a while in all three, some people literally will not eat in restaurants with "foreign" food.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 07-09-2019 09:56AM

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Well it, certainly, can’t be said that we’re overly sensitive to the, slightest, perceived, “criticism”.

To be sure, to be sure.

I’m fairly “happy” with legitimate “criticism” of Ireland relative to other “countries”. For instance the justice “system” and the “health” system are deservedly “criticised”, as is “our” infrastructure.

Most of what the op said is either not true or worse in other “countries”.

Wibbs · 07-09-2019 10:34AM

Fourier wrote: »

We are not by a long shot the worst when it comes to this. In fact I've never really seen an Irish person do this.

Try the French, Italians and Greeks who nearly reach the point of thinking their cuisine is more moral and edifying. Having spent a while in all three, some people literally will not eat in restaurants with "foreign" food.

Very much so. On cuisine we're certainly not insular, perhaps because we don't have near the food history of a place like Italy.

In other respects I have found the Irish more outward looking than other cultures I've encountered. Being a small pretty homogeneous island we've had to be in many ways. We can be a curious mix of being locally parochial in spots, but still looking outward. The boyo wearing ""his" county GAA colours while traipsing through Cambodia kinda thing.

So no I would not say we're too insular, mostly the opposite and tend to be more influenced by outside cultural changes than most. Look at the subjects that can pop up on this site. One could be forgiven for believing that some posters were Americans or British. You can even see this in the shift in some accents from a more Hiberno British influence to a Hiberno American over the last twenty years. Twenty years ago the only people "bringing their mom to the store" would have been American tourists.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 07-09-2019 11:24AM

We could do with a bit more insularity, maybe were we more insular we would reject much of the insane nonsense that in drains in from the fever swamps of the American academic system.

Capt'n Midnight · 07-09-2019 12:42PM

Black Swan wrote: »

Then again...
How the Irish Saved Civilization (1995). Book by Thomas Cahill.

We also invented nothing.

As in those gaps between letters that meant people didn't have to read out out loud anymore.

Seems to have caught on globally.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 07-09-2019 12:54PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

We also invented nothing.

As in those gaps between letters that meant people didn't have to read out out loud anymore.

Seems to have caught on globally.

Lasted until the hashtag era. #bringbackspaces

ElectronVolt · 07-09-2019 12:55PM

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

I’m not sure what this anecdote proves. Or even means. Or what’s particularly Irish about inches and feet.

It's usually Americans and very far gone Brexiteers who get hung up on feet and inches. Haven't really noticed that in Ireland to and huge degree, other than a few legacy hangovers.

completedit · 07-09-2019 12:59PM

It's actually quite hard being from a small island but tied into the anglosphere. We're just a small cog and we know that really. That's why you have that obsession with 'the french love us' and constantly comparing our worldview to Brits and Americans. Notice we don't compare ourselves to Danes or Slovaks. I wonder how being from a small country vs being from a large one influences the mindset. I think of countries that were once powerhouses(like Macedonia and Bulgaria) but are now underdeveloped backwaters. Wonder what that collective consciousness and awareness of the past does when faced with a different present reality.

Capt'n Midnight · 07-09-2019 03:57PM

Fourier wrote: »

We are not by a long shot the worst when it comes to this. In fact I've never really seen an Irish person do this.

Try the French, Italians and Greeks who nearly reach the point of thinking their cuisine is more moral and edifying. Having spent a while in all three, some people literally will not eat in restaurants with "foreign" food.

Show this map to any Italian and notice how they are emphatic they are it.

https://brilliantmaps.com/italian-food/

Capt'n Midnight · 07-09-2019 04:00PM

ElectronVolt wrote: »

It's usually Americans and very far gone Brexiteers who get hung up on feet and inches. Haven't really noticed that in Ireland to and huge degree, other than a few legacy hangovers.

When you say feet do you mean UK feet, or US feet or US geological survey feet ?

JohnnyFlash · 07-09-2019 04:02PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Show this map to any Italian and notice how they are emphatic they are it.

https://brilliantmaps.com/italian-food/

The food in Italy is sensational in fairness.

Paddy Cow · 07-09-2019 04:43PM

Insular: ignorant of or uninterested in cultures, ideas, or peoples outside one's own experience.

That does not describe Ireland at all. We have a huge tourism industry and have been mixing with other cultures for decades. Since Ryanair we also travel a lot. North Korea is insular. China is insular (they don't even have twitter). Ireland is not.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 07-09-2019 07:51PM

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

The food in Italy is sensational in fairness.

I don’t understand the deification of Italian food. Not my favourite cuisine by a long shot.

biko · 07-09-2019 08:02PM

sabat wrote: »

Insular literally means pertaining to an island.

Lol, I was just going to post this too

JohnnyFlash · 07-09-2019 08:50PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I don’t understand the deification of Italian food. Not my favourite cuisine by a long shot.

To each their own, and all that. There's a place in every town in Ireland serving dried pasta, variations of tomato sauce with whatever you would like from the huge menu, and pizza made from commercially produced dough. Then the Sicilian owner will arrive out to impress your girlfriend, mother, or grandmother with his unusually tight trousers and massive pepper grinder. Everyone leaves fairly happy - the bill was ok, the table enjoyed the food without being massively impressed, and they gave you a shot of limoncello at the end.

That's very much at odds with the sort of regional food you can find in Italy. Ignore the places with waiters standing outside offering you menus with pictures. Head to a local place (of which there are many), and order the menu of the day. The local places hate when you order from the main menu, as the profit is in serving up what they actually cooked in the kitchen so they could give you 4 courses of extraordinary food for 20 euro a head.

And it is extraordinary.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 07-09-2019 08:53PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I don’t understand the deification of Italian food. Not my favourite cuisine by a long shot.

Pizza and pasta.

07-09-2019 09:12PM

Very sensitive to criticism, a small article will appear in a small Spanish or French or Italian newspaper or the like mildly complaining about something minor or a mildly unpleasant issue that happened to a tourist from the said country when they were in Ireland.

Que massive media coverage in Ireland, newspapers, discussion programs, opinion pieces. What do they think of us, what does it mean for the tourist industry ect ect.

Junkyard Tom · 07-09-2019 09:21PM

Ireland is a local country for local people.

Strumms · 07-09-2019 09:26PM

I think any ‘insular’ traits might be in no small part due to us being an island nation. Nowadays we are less inclined to be worrying or overly concerned with the actions or our neighbors bar the odd comment on the news it’s smile and let them at it...

On the whole though in ‘modern Ireland’ we are outward looking, both in our views towards people with different cultures, opinions and experiences... maybe partly because generations of us are well enough traveled, we don’t believe for the most part that life begins and ends at our borders...we are educated people with a sense of adventure and exploring this planet of ours...not exactly insular traits...our social attitudes and expectations are not insular either, we travel, go to pubs, eat out, immerse ourselves in cultural activity, sports all of which wouldn’t be seen as particularly insular... we are open and welcoming.

Is Ireland too insular?

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