Is Ireland too insular?

07-09-2019 12:16AM #1

The independence of Ireland generated a social and cultural shift which may be unparalleled outside of Czarist and USSR Russia. Irish republicanism went from being a fringe movement, during the years of constitutional nationalism, to becoming ingrained in the people's outlook.

But did it go too far?

I didn't start this thread in Current Affairs because I think this goes beyond politics. I believe that we, as Irish people, have a tendency towards placing ourselves at the centre of everything.

I have noticed that in any discussion -- say, of world cuisine, the Irish will inevitably swoop on it by extolling the virtues of blaa, or coddle, or their ma's apple tart.

Discussion of Brexit, North Korea or global warming always descend to small questions like "what does this mean for Ireland?" The Irish news media is fairly unique, to my knowledge, in framing every international news story in terms of an Irish significance (what does Global Warming mean for farmers in North Tipp?)

Irish people often seem to have a magnetic draw to one another when abroad. That's nice, but then you are inevitably drawn into a long and detailed conversation into 'how things are at home'.

The world does not revolve around this small island in the North Atlantic.

I love my country, and I love its language and its history. I'm not some Irish-hating wannabe west-brit. But we can be too introspective, too insular. Why?

Lil Sally Anne Jnr. · 07-09-2019 12:20AM

Mostly to do with geography and population size I'd say. Many countries have provinces bigger than our entire country. We are used to living in a little world and we see everything else through that prism too.

Edgware · 07-09-2019 12:23AM

Lil Sally Anne Jnr. wrote: »

Mostly to do with geography and population size I'd say. Many countries have provinces bigger than our entire country. We are used to living in a little world and we see everything else through that prism too.

Not forgetting that "the crowd up in Dublin" are out to rip off "Rural Ireland"

sabat · 07-09-2019 12:26AM

Insular literally means pertaining to an island.

07-09-2019 12:29AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I believe that we, as Irish people, have a tendency towards placing ourselves at the centre of everything.

Then again...
How the Irish Saved Civilization (1995). Book by Thomas Cahill.

07-09-2019 12:31AM

sabat wrote: »

Insular literally means pertaining to an island.

That's not the common usage of the word, and I suspect you know that.

Here, it means inward-facing, or refers to a state of being uninterested in global matters. For a country that has given more than its fair contribution to the world, we display a serious lack of interest in the outside world.

completedit · 07-09-2019 12:31AM

I actually,y agree with you. Also, America’s position as a dominant player in culture and the Irish diaspora there makes us believe we are more important and relevant than we are.

07-09-2019 12:36AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

That's not the common usage of the word, and I suspect you know that.

It means inward-facing, or uninterested in global matters. For a country that has given more than its fair contribution to the world, we display a serious lack of interest in the outside world.

Has Brexit & American politics not featured prominently in the media? Concept of imports? Holidays abroad? I'm rather unconvinced by your angle.

07-09-2019 12:43AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Has Brexit & American politics not featured prominently on the news? Concept of imports? Holidays abroad? I'm rather unconvinced by your angle.

Brexit and US politics have featured heavily in our discussions, say on broadcast media.

But they are always centered around their Irish significance.

Keith Byrne (Irishman detained by US Federal Authorities) is a classic example of this when you consider the thousands of non-Irish kids being processed in actual cages, which is treated with relative indifference.

In terms of Brexit, our fixation with the border is entirely deserved. We must remain vigilant against republican terrorism. Nevertheless, there has been almost no discussion/debate here about the future of the European Project and integration. Nobody is talking about what happens after Brexit in terms of European integration, whether positive or negative. We are self-obsessed.

07-09-2019 12:47AM

Does across-the-pond count? 32.3 million people living in the USA claim Irish heritage, according to the US Census Bureau (compared to 4.8 million population of Ireland). We get around.

07-09-2019 12:55AM

Black Swan wrote: »

Does across-the-pond count? 32.3 million people living in the USA claim Irish heritage, according to the US Census Bureau (compared to 4.8 million population of Ireland). We get around.

Not really, because their heritage doesn't seem to be a significant factor in their political outlook, compared to recent immigrants. Compared to ourselves, who seem determined to make ourselves relevant, they're actually not relevant.

Leg End Reject · 07-09-2019 12:58AM

We are more probably insular as a result of our geographical location, and the fact that the population was mostly native Irish, immigration is a recent phenomenon.

We have oppression in our recent history and the Irish state is still really in its infancy. We were brow beaten by the Catholic Church, the move to a more secular society is more recent development.

The country now is unrecognisable from the one of my childhood and I'm not that old. If you had told me as a child that divorce, same sex marriage and abortion would be a reality I wouldn't have believed it.

So yes, certain demographics are probably still insular, but the country is rapidly becoming more progressive and outward looking. A full shift is probably a generation or two away, and then people will mourn the loss of identity.

And yes, I have been drinking.

sdanseo · 07-09-2019 12:59AM

Insular in our thoughts - no, I don't think so. We are as a populace well educated on global affairs when you compare to the likes of the UK and US.

Insular in our ways - absolutely.
A mundane example. I work in logistics. I deal with the continent while other departments deal with the UK and more others Ireland.
I will regularly get emails or phone calls asking for a cost to ship freight measured in feet and inches.

The Europeans would laugh me off the face of the earth if I didn't convert before sending the request.

It all boils down to our hardiness. "Ah it'll be grand".
Great on the one hand. We are more impervious to offence and being aggrieved which makes conflict less likely.
Abysmal from the point of view that we are seen from the outside as set in our ways, backwards and even irrelevant.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 07-09-2019 12:59AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

The independence of Ireland generated a social and cultural shift which may be unparalleled outside of Czarist and USSR Russia. Irish republicanism went from being a fringe movement, during the years of constitutional nationalism, to becoming ingrained in the people's outlook.

But did it go too far?

I didn't start this thread in Current Affairs because I think this goes beyond politics. I believe that we, as Irish people, have a tendency towards placing ourselves at the centre of everything.

I have noticed that in any discussion -- say, of world cuisine, the Irish will inevitably swoop on it by extolling the virtues of blaa, or coddle, or their ma's apple tart.

Discussion of Brexit, North Korea or global warming always descend to small questions like "what does this mean for Ireland?" The Irish news media is fairly unique, to my knowledge, in framing every international news story in terms of an Irish significance (what does Global Warming mean for farmers in North Tipp?)

Irish people often seem to have a magnetic draw to one another when abroad. That's nice, but then you are inevitably drawn into a long and detailed conversation into 'how things are at home'.

The world does not revolve around this small island in the North Atlantic.

I love my country, and I love its language and its history. I'm not some Irish-hating wannabe west-brit. But we can be too introspective, too insular. Why?

There are over 200 countries in the world. I’m sure most have their own media organisations. How much “knowledge” do you have of them all?

GG66 · 07-09-2019 01:02AM

I don't think we're more insular than any other nationality. In many ways we're more open.

Any country I've been to their media focuses predominantly on national affairs and how international affairs affect them.

Nationalities often stick together when abroad.

Irish people are generally well travelled and educated and have a reasonably open world view

07-09-2019 01:15AM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

There are over 200 countries in the world. I’m sure most have their own media organisations. How much “knowledge” do you have of them all?

A very weak knowlege. But I did qualify that by saying "to my knowledge"

I'm just saying, like. Even the fact that I and many others read the BBC every morning implies that it provides an outlook we can't derive from Irish media.

I also (dons pretentious mantle) listen to French radio. Neither they nor the BBC dwell on national interests -- in other countries, global news means exactly that.

We just don't have those kinds of big-picture discussions here. That's all, and that's the point.

Vic_08 · 07-09-2019 02:47AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

A very weak knowlege. But I did qualify that by saying "to my knowledge"

I'm just saying, like. Even the fact that I and many others read the BBC every morning implies that it provides an outlook we can't derive from Irish media.

I also (dons pretentious mantle) listen to French radio. Neither they nor the BBC dwell on national interests -- in other countries, global news means exactly that.

We just don't have those kinds of big-picture discussions here. That's all, and that's the point.

Nope. You are dead wrong on this, we hove our faults but being unusually insular isn't one of them. The pathological need for foreigners to think we're a great bunch of lads on the other hand...

Of course people are interested in how world events will effect them and their locality, you'd have to be stupid not to be concerned about the damage international dumb sh!t like Brexit has on your own life.

Brits and Americans are on average far more ignorant of the world outside their own countries than a typical Irish person, Americans in particular.

You say you look at foreign news regularly, I would say a large % of Irish residents do so as well. A huge % of Americans will have never seen any news from anything other than a US perspective, nor have left their country, nor have even considered that there is a perspective that is not American-centric.

The very fact that many consider only other people to have accents says a lot about how insular they are as a nation, no Irish person would think that way.

07-09-2019 03:25AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Not really, because their heritage doesn't seem to be a significant factor in their political outlook, compared to recent immigrants. Compared to ourselves, who seem determined to make ourselves relevant, they're actually not relevant.

Our discussions have been all anecdotal. If you are focused on gathering reasons why Ireland is not relevant, I suppose you may find some. In like manner, if you seek reasons that challenge this irrelevancy, you may find them too. For example: Symbolically the Irish may be relevant across the pond, given that millions of US citizens celebrate a national holiday every year: St Patrick's Day. "$4.44 billion: The amount Americans are expected to collectively spend on St. Patrick's Day in 2016, according to NRF."

Tourism another example:

The United States is our second largest source market, after Great Britain in terms of visitor numbers. US visitors tend to stay longer and tour more extensively around the island than some other visitors. They deliver significant business for ‘high-end’ tourism suppliers and support a wide range of tourism sectors.

US Military and Shannon Airport 1st quarter 2019:

A total of 24,521 US military personnel transited the airport between January 1 and March 22, 2019

US Investment in Ireland Compared to other Larger Nations:

Ireland has benefited from $277bn (£182bn) of US direct foreign investment in the past two decades – gaining more from American firms than Brazil, Russia, India and China combined.

interactive · 07-09-2019 04:27AM

Was the OP paid for by the EU?
Abandon your Irishness and become a EU citizen

JupiterKid · 07-09-2019 04:49AM

Well, as an island nation we are bound to be insular to a certain extent, but...

...I really think us Irish are very well travelled and well educated and informed of global and international events, especially those of us under the age of 50 or thereabouts.

Of course, in the early years of the State under the yoke of deValera led economic isolationism, the vice grip of the Catholic Church, economic stagnation, poor educational attainment and censorship and lack of opportunities at home, Ireland prior to the 1990s and certainly the 1970s was extremely insular, but we have utterly transformed as a society in just a few decades and are now a very open and outward looking nation now.

I sort of find it amazing that my life and that of de Valera overlapped by a few months...

I can think of many more developed nations around the world that are far more insular in their mindset.

interactive · 07-09-2019 04:53AM

JupiterKid wrote: »

Well, as an island nation we are bound to be insular to a certain extent, but...

...I really think us Irish are very well travelled and well educated and informed of global and international events, especially those of us under the age of 50 or thereabouts.

Of course, in the early years of the State under the yoke of deValera led economic isolationism, the vice grip of the Catholic Church, economic stagnation, poor educational attainment and censorship and lack of opportunities at home, Ireland prior to the 1990s and certainly the 1970s was extremely insular, but we have utterly transformed as a society in just a few decades and are now a very open and outward looking nation now.

I sort of find it amazing that my life and that of de Valera overlapped by a few months...

I can think of many more developed nations around the world that are far more insular in their mindset.

More self loathing BS, do you really believe what you posted or are you getting paid?

Sorry about that · 07-09-2019 05:12AM

I don’t think that we are insular in our outlook at all. Most people I know are interested in many international current affairs, Trump, US gun laws, Syria, Palestine, and obviously Brexit. Nobody has ever mentioned the Irishman who is facing deportation/imprisonment to me, but everyone I know was horrified about the situation at the US border where children and parents were separated.

We have embraced multiculturalism, our students travel the world every summer, and take up employment abroad. We are shaking off the church’s involvement in education and social services. Some of us want our language to become extinct, and consider its preservation a waste of money. I think that we could do with a bit more insular thinking to save and celebrate what makes us unique, instead of always being culturally sensitive to all other nationalities first, as we wave day-day to our own rich culture.

Graces7 · 07-09-2019 05:49AM

Sorry about that wrote: »

I don’t think that we are insular in our outlook at all. Most people I know are interested in many international current affairs, Trump, US gun laws, Syria, Palestine, and obviously Brexit. Nobody has ever mentioned the Irishman who is facing deportation/imprisonment to me, but everyone I know was horrified about the situation at the US border where children and parents were separated.

We have embraced multiculturalism, our students travel the world every summer, and take up employment abroad. We are shaking off the church’s involvement in education and social services. Some of us want our language to become extinct, and consider its preservation a waste of money. I think that we could do with a bit more insular thinking to save and celebrate what makes us unique, instead of always being culturally sensitive to all other nationalities first, as we wave day-day to our own rich culture.

Interested in and aware of does not exclude insularism; in fact it increases it.
Seeing the world and not deeply entrenched in it. spectator not participant.

Maybe as an incomer of nearly 29 years residence in Ireland I see it differently though. But insular to a degree, Ireland is. That is part of the charm for visitors etc. Quaint small country. By its very nature and situation, deeply isolated and self contained. A refuge from the bigger world. Which is what may save Ireland from extinction

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 07-09-2019 05:56AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

A very weak knowlege. But I did qualify that by saying "to my knowledge"

I'm just saying, like. Even the fact that I and many others read the BBC every morning implies that it provides an outlook we can't derive from Irish media.

I also (dons pretentious mantle) listen to French radio. Neither they nor the BBC dwell on national interests -- in other countries, global news means exactly that.

We just don't have those kinds of big-picture discussions here. That's all, and that's the point.

So you admittedly know the square root of fuck all about how we compare in terms of insularity of media reporting when compared with the majority of the countries of the world? And having lived in the UK for a time, I’m perplexed by your claim that the UK media doesn’t dwell on national interests. They very much do. The most obvious example is the forelock-tugging towards the Royal Family which all the main outlets overdo. But it’s not just the Royals. National matters are picked apart just like in Ireland. And Irish people watch the UK news because we get the channels and the times of the main news of Channel 4 and BBC differ from the Irish times.

And “To my knowledge” is, IMO, a pretty strong phrase, actually. It implies, well, decent knowledge. Afterwards claiming that that knowledge is “weak” doesn’t get you off the hook.

And if I’m honest, I find your OP more navel-gazing than the media you criticise. Q: “Why are we so different?”. A: “We’re probably not.”.

Subcomandante Marcos · 07-09-2019 06:02AM

Ireland, relative to it's population, is one of the least insular places on the planet.

Has the OP ever travelled?

This is a ridiculous thread.

I'm Irish and I've lived and worked in umpteen countries across 5 continents, and Ireland is the last place of all of them I'd ever call insular.

Using the fact that board discussions get hijacked by a handful of cretins as a reason to say Ireland is insular?

FFS.

07-09-2019 07:50AM

If by "insular" anglocentric is actually meant then I agree totally - even if with EU membership more Irish people are rediscovering that world beyond Mother England.

In many fundamental ways the Irish lack an Irishcentric insularity. An awareness of, and respect for, our own Irish tradition is noticeably absent because so many people still want an Ireland which is culturally and intellectually English with a bit of face-saving green paint on it. These same people - 'Sasanaigh nua darb ainm Éireannaigh' in the poet's famous words - will be the first to sneer, without irony, at the "Oirishness" of "Plastic Paddys" in America.

A mere parliament in Dublin isn't worth a damn if the people in it just ape English ideas and legislation, as they've been doing with a good 90% of legislation since 1922. The irony that EU legislation is actually giving us far more intellectual independence from Englishness than anything proposed by the entirety of our (profoundly anglocentric) media or by the vast majority of Oireachtas members (who take many of their proposals from what's in the media) has not sunk in for most Irish people.

JohnnyFlash · 07-09-2019 07:51AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If by "insular" anglocentric is actually meant then I agree totally - even if with EU membership more Irish people are rediscovering that world beyond Mother England.

In many fundamental ways the Irish lack an Irishcentric insularity. An awareness of, and respect for, our own Irish tradition is noticeably absent because so many people still want an Ireland which is culturally and intellectually English with a bit of face-saving green paint on it. These same people - 'Sasanaigh nua darb ainm Éireannaigh' in the poet's famous words - will be the first to sneer, without irony, at the "Oirishness" of "Plastic Paddys" in America.

A mere parliament in Dublin isn't worth a damn if the people in it just ape English ideas and legislation, as they've been doing with a good 90% of legislation since 1922. The irony that EU legislation is actually giving us far more imtellectual independence from Englishness than anything proposed by the entirety of our (profoundly anglocentric) media or by the vast majority of Oireachtas members has not sunk in for most Irish people.

Fire out a few examples of Irish ideas and legislation there that you might see going through the Oireachtas. Ones that aren’t ‘profoundly anglocentric’. I’m genuinely interested in this idea of yours.

Graces7 · 07-09-2019 08:33AM

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Ireland, relative to it's population, is one of the least insular places on the planet.

Has the OP ever travelled?

This is a ridiculous thread.

I'm Irish and I've lived and worked in umpteen countries across 5 continents, and Ireland is the last place of all of them I'd ever call insular.

Using the fact that board discussions get hijacked by a handful of cretins as a reason to say Ireland is insular?

FFS.

This post comes across as the most insular in the thread.

07-09-2019 08:39AM

Graces7 wrote: »

This post comes across as the most insular in the thread.

You literally live on an island of the Irish coast..

Mad_maxx · 07-09-2019 08:45AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

The independence of Ireland generated a social and cultural shift which may be unparalleled outside of Czarist and USSR Russia. Irish republicanism went from being a fringe movement, during the years of constitutional nationalism, to becoming ingrained in the people's outlook.

But did it go too far?

I didn't start this thread in Current Affairs because I think this goes beyond politics. I believe that we, as Irish people, have a tendency towards placing ourselves at the centre of everything.

I have noticed that in any discussion -- say, of world cuisine, the Irish will inevitably swoop on it by extolling the virtues of blaa, or coddle, or their ma's apple tart.

Discussion of Brexit, North Korea or global warming always descend to small questions like "what does this mean for Ireland?" The Irish news media is fairly unique, to my knowledge, in framing every international news story in terms of an Irish significance (what does Global Warming mean for farmers in North Tipp?)

Irish people often seem to have a magnetic draw to one another when abroad. That's nice, but then you are inevitably drawn into a long and detailed conversation into 'how things are at home'.

The world does not revolve around this small island in the North Atlantic.

I love my country, and I love its language and its history. I'm not some Irish-hating wannabe west-brit. But we can be too introspective, too insular. Why?

We are a deeply parochial folk

Yamanoto · 07-09-2019 08:49AM

Look at the media landscape & public discourse of places like the US, Russia, India or Australia & I'm unsure as to how Ireland stands out as in any way singularly insular.

Curious assertion to make IMHO.

Is Ireland too insular?

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