Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

bilston · 05-09-2019 05:43PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You'll need to narrow that down a bit - which of the 10 recent WTF events are you reacting to?

He just made a speech in front of a bunch of police officers and one of them seemed to almost faint or be sick, it was just another bizarre.moment.

I swear there are script writers in charge of this somewhere!

Zubeneschamali · 05-09-2019 05:45PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

To be fair he was there to unveil his new recruits.

Woeful optics - looks like something from North Korea.

Enzokk · 05-09-2019 05:47PM

He just confirmed he will not ask the EU for an extension. I see a challenge to Labour here, don't ask for an election. You have the upper hand with a PM that has no majority and confirmed he will resign as PM before carrying out the law, so let him do it.

There is nothing that says him resigning means an election, he just resigns as PM. Let someone else go in and ask for the extension.

allthedoyles · 05-09-2019 05:48PM

He keeps saying people voted by a substantial majority to leave

Joe_ Public · 05-09-2019 05:49PM

Enzokk wrote: »

I cannot take any of what he says seriously when he talks about fighting crime and giving the police the resources they need, when he was in parliament and government that cut resources for the same police services. Liar.

I recall there was a man on Sky news the morning they made the annoucnement about the 20,000 new recruits and he was making the point that not only had the government cut that number over the years, but they had also decimated the infrastructure around the force so not only was their a chronic shortage of qualified staff to train them but also a chronic shortage of the facilities and centres of excellence in which to train them. Cant remember his name, but he was a former force member of a high rank and he knew what he was talking about.

CelticRambler · 05-09-2019 05:50PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

There might be some of these but I don't see a political movement based on it. I agree with a lot of people on this thread saying that the Brexit party won't exist long after a no deal Brexit.

They won't/don't need a party to make themselves heard. Look at the Gilets Jaunes in France, or the current protesters in Hong Kong.

I'm not saying that there'll be wall-to-wall coverage of "the EU question" but it'll flare up regularly. Even now, the media regularly offers itself Brexit downtime, and only goes into overdrive in the run-up to each new deadline.

In the future, "the EU question" will be brought back to the fore when Scotland secedes from GB, when NI votes for reunification, and every time some "Brussels" reminds England that "those rules no longer apply" - e.g. the extradition of the tabloids' most-hated criminal-of-the-month, or Tracey-from-Essex's honeymoon-in-hell (because she forgot to renew her visa-waiver) ... not to mention "EU scuppers lucrative British trade deal with Solomon Islands" or somesuch hysteria.

Every one of those stories will pick at the scab of unhealed rifts between family members, neighbours, local politicians who voted leave or remain, etc, etc, etc; and that'll kick off a whole new round of Brexit-related acrimony.

Bit cynical · 05-09-2019 05:50PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The only way the trade talks will be of no interest to the red-tops is if they are unsuccessful.

If they are even a little successful it will be because the lily livered quisling traitors in Government have surrendered the precious sovereignty England won in Brexit to the jackbooted EU dictators.

It depends on the terms of course but there won't be much news emerging from the talks until towards the end which would probably take years.

Joe_ Public · 05-09-2019 05:51PM

Enzokk wrote: »

He just confirmed he will not ask the EU for an extension. I see a challenge to Labour here, don't ask for an election. You have the upper hand with a PM that has no majority and confirmed he will resign as PM before carrying out the law, so let him do it.

There is nothing that says him resigning means an election, he just resigns as PM. Let someone else go in and ask for the extension.

Absolutely. There is no dilemma for labour here that i can see, dont give him the election he craves right now. The slurs that they are "frit" or running scared of the election they have been shouting about for the last 2 years are hollow and meaningless and should be brushed aside. Just smack of the total desperation about the government right now.

Enzokk · 05-09-2019 05:55PM

allthedoyles wrote: »

He keeps saying people voted by a substantial majority to leave

Semantics, he could mean they won and there was a substantial amount of votes, or that the amount of votes that won it was substantial compared to a general election

prawnsambo · 05-09-2019 05:55PM

bilston wrote: »

He just made a speech in front of a bunch of police officers and one of them seemed to almost faint or be sick, it was just another bizarre.moment.

I swear there are script writers in charge of this somewhere!

I'd say probably fainted. They were standing there for over an hour in full dress uniform before he arrived. Late as usual. That's a recipe for fainting, always used to be a regular occurrence at military guards of honour on hot days.

Joe_ Public · 05-09-2019 05:59PM

Elmar Brok on sky news just there saying it's been nearly one year since WA agreed and there has been "no change" in UK situation, didnt sound very convinced to me about the wisdom of granting an extension. Repeated that an election or referendum would need to be promised and that isnt the case as of yet at least.

Zubeneschamali · 05-09-2019 06:00PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

It depends on the terms of course but there won't be much news emerging from the talks until towards the end which would probably take years.

No, after the nonsense the UK have pulled, the EU are going to slap the WA minus transition on the table and "sign here or no deal" and put that photo in a press release.

If the UK sign, the Brexiteers will have an aneurysm (or England sign, if the Scots have already left).

If they don't, the economy will stay in the toilet.

Enzokk · 05-09-2019 06:02PM

This is an interesting tweet.

https://twitter.com/TomKibasi/status/1169525135285661696?s=20

So the EU would consider an extension request even if the PM doesn't personally ask them for it because it is the law. The EU will treat the bill as law when the UK PM could ignore it, surely there is a German word for that.

BonnieSituation · 05-09-2019 06:04PM

careless sherpa wrote: »

nc6000 wrote: »

Except for Sammy Wilson, he takes his motorbike on the ferry to Scotland then makes his way over 600KMs down to London.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dup-s-wilson-happy-to-vote-down-may-s-brexit-deal-1.3757338

Goes to show the depth of his animosity towards the rest of the country. For some reason the image of Sammy on a motorbike immediately conjured up an image of the village people

Tbf, there was no where in that article does it mention that he WON'T get the ferry from Dublin. And we all know he wouldn't.

But it really does make more logistical sense for him to get the ferry from Larne rather than traipse to Dublin Port in time for a ferry to Holyhead and then bang down to London.

I would do exactly as he does. Though there's nothing on God's earth that would allow me to consider ever living in Larne.

Bit cynical · 05-09-2019 06:04PM

CelticRambler wrote: »

They won't/don't need a party to make themselves heard. Look at the Gilets Jaunes in France, or the current protesters in Hong Kong.

I'm not saying that there'll be wall-to-wall coverage of "the EU question" but it'll flare up regularly. Even now, the media regularly offers itself Brexit downtime, and only goes into overdrive in the run-up to each new deadline.

In the future, "the EU question" will be brought back to the fore when Scotland secedes from GB, when NI votes for reunification, and every time some "Brussels" reminds England that "those rules no longer apply" - e.g. the extradition of the tabloids' most-hated criminal-of-the-month, or Tracey-from-Essex's honeymoon-in-hell (because she forgot to renew her visa-waiver) ... not to mention "EU scuppers lucrative British trade deal with Solomon Islands" or somesuch hysteria.

Every one of those stories will pick at the scab of unhealed rifts between family members, neighbours, local politicians who voted leave or remain, etc, etc, etc; and that'll kick off a whole new round of Brexit-related acrimony.

There will be acrimony especially if there's a no deal brexit and the economy there suffers as one would expect. But, over time, this acrimony will be less to do with brexit and more to do with government policy of the day. This is true even though an argument can be made that a particular hardship can be traced back to brexit itself.

Another example in Ireland was the water charges protests. The water charges themselves can be traced to an EU directive from which Ireland had obtained a derogation but was nevertheless under pressure to lift. When the financial crisis hit and Ireland was trying to fend off a bailout, Ireland produced a document saying they would lift the derogation thus bringing about charges and this was later written into the memorandum of understanding of the bailout itself. So water charges were directly connected with the financial crisis but when the protests were occurring it was the government of the day that got the flack. Even though it was not long after the financial crisis, the crisis itself was no longer news and therefore water charges were not attributed to it.

So there may be yellow jacket style protests over various issues in the UK but as time goes on they will stop being seen as remainer protests. Of course in the immediate aftermath they will be seen as such.

prawnsambo · 05-09-2019 06:05PM

Enzokk wrote: »

This is an interesting tweet.

https://twitter.com/TomKibasi/status/1169525135285661696?s=20

So the EU would consider an extension request even if the PM doesn't personally ask them for it because it is the law. The EU will treat the bill as law when the UK PM could ignore it, surely there is a German word for that.

What's the German for 'common sense'?

InTheShadows · 05-09-2019 06:05PM

Banned.

Zubeneschamali · 05-09-2019 06:06PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Repeated that an election or referendum would need to be promised and that isnt the case as of yet at least.

I think it would be inappropriate for the EU to try to dictate the internal workings of a member state by offering threats/inducements this way.

Zubeneschamali · 05-09-2019 06:08PM

InTheShadows wrote: »

Excellent speech from the PM today.

PM of which country now?

prawnsambo · 05-09-2019 06:08PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I think it would be inappropriate for the EU to try to dictate the internal workings of a member state by offering threats/inducements this way.

I think it's fair enough that when asked to extend the A50 period that the EU should ask "what for?". And in advance suggest that the reason had better be a good one. Like for instance a referendum or election.

Joe_ Public · 05-09-2019 06:10PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I think it would be inappropriate for the EU to try to dictate the internal workings of a member state by offering threats/inducements this way.

But they've long been clear on that point: Tusk, Varadkar et al have all stated it clearly - an extension would be considered in the event of some change in the UK's position which seemed to mean either an election or a second referendum. Doesnt read like a threat/inducement to me, just laying out their position in a clear and helpful way.

ElectronVolt · 05-09-2019 06:11PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

The entire civil service is unelected, as are our judges, as is the governor of the bank of England.

They all have much more sway over our country than the house of lords.

Every civil servant is responsible to a line minister (who is elected albeit indirectly) and in theory does the governments bidding as a neutral functionary.
Judges can be removed from office by the Oireachtas in impeachment procedures.
The Governor of the Central Bank serves at the behest of the Government.

NONE of those people are equivalent to peers. There are still 90 hereditary peers in the house and also the "Lords Spiritual" who are the assembled bishops of the Church of England.

They are not functionaries or administrators. They are legislators. That's a huge difference.

There's no amount of explaining away the fact that House of Lords is a bonkers anachronism that really shouldn't be in what is otherwise a modern democracy.

There are other oddities like the PM was not elected by the House of Commons. Theresa May just recommended him to the Queen on the basis that she felt he could command a majority and that was it. The Leader of the House (JRM) is also an appointee made by the Government and has no mandate from the House, despite the title. You've also got things like the Privy Council which wields significant power without any kind of accountability to electorates.

The Queen herself is the least non-democratic part of the system. Her role is just symbolic. The problem is you've the leftovers of what amounts to a pre-democratic royal court still in place.

Whatever becomes of the UK after Brexit, they really do need to look at serious constitutional reform - notably perhaps having a written constitution. It's as if all of the assumed to exist checks-and-balances have turned out to be about as useful as having a Morris Dance. This mess has shaken out pretty issue that could possibly go wrong and I suspect we'll see a few more emerge before the end of Brexit.

Zubeneschamali · 05-09-2019 06:12PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

But they've long been clear on that point: Tusk, Varadkar et al have all stated it clearly - an extension would be considered in the event of some change in the UK's position which seemed to mean either an election or a second referendum. Doesnt read like a threat/inducement to me, just laying out their position in a clear and helpful way.

"Call an election or you are out with No Deal" doesn't sound quite as neutral.

First Up · 05-09-2019 06:13PM

Zubeneschamali wrote:

"Call an election or you are out with No Deal" doesn't sound quite as neutral.

Nobody said that.

Zubeneschamali · 05-09-2019 06:18PM

First Up wrote: »

Nobody said that.

That's exactly what it means though. "Nice constitutional arrangements you've got in your sovereign nation there, member state. Now call an election or else."

steddyeddy · 05-09-2019 06:18PM

Jacob Rees Mogg compares doctor who warned public about medicine shortages to Andrew Wakefield, the doctor who made up data claiming autism was caused by vaccines. The doctor in question is David Nicholls, author of the governments own Yellowhammer papers which assessed the damage of a no deal on medicines. Mogg is an extremely dangerous ideologue.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...box=1567690153

Mancomb Seepgood · 05-09-2019 06:19PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Jacob Rees Mogg compares doctor who warned public about medicine shortages to Andrew Wakefield, the doctor who made up data claiming autism was caused by vaccines. The doctor in question is David Nicholls, author of the governments own Yellowhammer papers which assessed the damage of a no deal on medicines. Mogg is an extremely dangerous ideologue.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...box=1567690153

Said using parliamentary privilege of course,cowardly as well as shameless.

Joe_ Public · 05-09-2019 06:20PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

"Call an election or you are out with No Deal" doesn't sound quite as neutral.

Should just be clear here, i wasnt directly quoting him above, although i do think he used close to those words. What he was saying is an election isnt yet guaranteed so he wasn't convinced on the basis of granting the extension as things stand, not that he or anyone else in the EU was directly demanding it. It was just the overall tone of the interview that struck me really, he used some strong language in relation to the negotiations or lack of them. Didnt seem to me to have a lot of patience left for the way things were going.

Strazdas · 05-09-2019 06:20PM

Watching the BBC News at 6, it's a bit shocking to see just how entrenched Leave voters are. "Leaving the EU" seems to be their sole political priority, ahead of all the normal things you would expect a voter to be concerned about.

ElectronVolt · 05-09-2019 06:23PM

Strazdas wrote: »

Watching the BBC News at 6, it's a bit shocking to see just how entrenched Leave voters are. "Leaving the EU" seems to be their sole political priority, ahead of all the normal things you would expect a voter to be concerned about.

It's raw nationalism and tribal politics and it's been stirred, whipped and brought to the boil over the last few years and I really can't see any way back from that.

I would still predict any general election to produce a result that would be the complete opposite to what anyone with an ounce of sense or who was a pragmatist might like to see. You will end up with a load of hardline Tories and probably the rise of a significant number of Brexit Party MPs.

There's no unifying, calming, sane figure emerging from all of this to put the genie back into the bottle.

Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

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