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Spiral out - keep going

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  • Is there much difference between optimistic and cautious times?




  • Not for the 5k i suppose - Was thinking of heading out at 6.20 pace and see if I can hang on.

    For the HM, the optimistic time is head out with the 1.35 pacers and see if I can stay with them. Cautious is go with 1.40 pacers and push on depending on how I'm feeling




  • Treviso wrote: »
    Not for the 5k i suppose - Was thinking of heading out at 6.20 pace and see if I can hang on.

    For the HM, the optimistic time is head out with the 1.35 pacers and see if I can stay with them. Cautious is go with 1.40 pacers and push on depending on how I'm feeling

    What time half do your training paces equate to...the tempos etc? I'd say to make it comparable to your marathon target. If you are targeting an aggressive full marathon time then go for the aggressive half. It's the only way to see if you are on track...




  • My LT paces have been run at 7.15 pace and I did 7 miles of that this week. Doubts would be if I could maintain that for another 6 plus miles. If I was trying to hit a 3.30 marathon time, then I guess i should be aiming for around the 1.35-1.36 mark though.




  • Treviso wrote: »
    My LT paces have been run at 7.15 pace and I did 7 miles of that this week. Doubts would be if I could maintain that for another 6 plus miles. If I was trying to hit a 3.30 marathon time, then I guess i should be aiming for around the 1.35-1.36 mark though.

    There's your answer so!


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  • Eek! Thanks S




  • Treviso wrote: »
    Eek! Thanks S

    You have a free shot at it.... Charleville by all accounts is about the fastest HM course in the country which should help. Also it doesn't matter if you fail. It doesn't necessarily mean the 3:30 is a non runner. I failed in an attempt for a sub 1:30 half last year that I felt I needed to indicate a 3:20 marathon was possible. I got sub 3:20 despite the HM flop...




  • How do you understand LT pace? For most of us (non-elites) it’s certainly not HM pace. Dial back.

    Part of your issue with choosing race pace is the decision to train for a time different from what you are actually targeting. 5k is irrelevant. The Half will tell you stuff, but only if you approach it properly. Good luck!




  • You are on the same plan as myself and you are a week ahead of me, will definitely be following this log in detail to give me a preview of what's coming my way!
    Best of luck with the HM next month. I'm looking forward to reading how the new Nike's go for you in race conditions and what you think of them.




  • Murph_D wrote: »
    How do you understand LT pace? For most of us (non-elites) it’s certainly not HM pace. Dial back.

    Part of your issue with choosing race pace is the decision to train for a time different from what you are actually targeting. 5k is irrelevant. The Half will tell you stuff, but only if you approach it properly. Good luck!

    I suppose I have the terminology wrong with LT, maybe it's more tempo. HR stays reasonable constant for them. For the Cork half plan, I trained at 7.30 for this LT/tempo pace and only reached 4 miles at this pace. I did Cork Half at 7.29avg, 1.39.x.

    Improvements have been made since then and I've been doing these runs at 7.15, reaching 7 miles at this pace during training. So I'm hoping the trend will continue for Charleville.


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  • Pfitzinger and Douglas define 'tempo' as the pace you can run for about one hour - so if you're a 1:39 hm runner this equates to about 7:20. You're a bit under that - how did you find that 7 miles? It's a brutally difficult session from what I remember of it.

    Your race times posted at beginning of thread (like most of us) show a performance drop off with distance - that 25k time you posted is quite a long way off even your HM time - could be a warning sign. Anyway Charleville will tell you whether 3:30 is a realistic goal alright.

    By the way that Railway Run sounds great. I love the part of the line that's on the Cork Marathon route.




  • You are on the same plan as myself and you are a week ahead of me, will definitely be following this log in detail to give me a preview of what's coming my way!
    Best of luck with the HM next month. I'm looking forward to reading how the new Nike's go for you in race conditions and what you think of them.

    Thanks CBG, was just trawling through your Strava logs already trying to see how you're getting on with the plan. Good to see you starting a log too - will follow with interest.




  • Murph_D wrote: »
    Pfitzinger and Douglas define 'tempo' as the pace you can run for about one hour - so if you're a 1:39 hm runner this equates to about 7:20. You're a bit under that - how did you find that 7 miles? It's a brutally difficult session from what I remember of it.

    Your race times posted at beginning of thread (like most of us) show a performance drop off with distance - that 25k time you posted is quite a long way off even your HM time - could be a warning sign. Anyway Charleville will tell you whether 3:30 is a realistic goal alright.

    By the way that Railway Run sounds great. I love the part of the line that's on the Cork Marathon route.

    Yes my endurance is my weak point but I do feel it improving. Whether or not it improves in time for DCM is another story.

    That railway run is a great run - Goes all the way past Monkstown on similar paths to the Cork Marathon route. Its why I do most of my training when not running on grass




  • DCM TRAINING - WEEK 11 - continued

    After a good start to the week, attention turned to the 37 miles I needed to run over 3 days. The plan switches it's attention to running the long runs on tired legs - it worked well this week!

    Friday 30th - 12m MLR, 8.56avg
    With the 20 mile due on Sunday, I decided to run this MLR on grass to save on wear and tear for my legs. They were stiff during the run because of the LT run but they soon loosened up with the faster pace.

    Saturday 31st - 5m Recovery, 9.50avg
    Ran on grass again first thing Saturday morning. I normally don't run this early and it showed. My legs were asleep for the first 2 miles. New found respect for all those that run before 7am, don't think it's something I would like to do again. Last mile barefoot.

    Sunday 1st - 20m MLR, 8.52avg
    Was dreading this one and wasn't really in the form for it. Legs felt tired the previous day and because I stupidly stayed up to watch the boxing, I didn't really get a good nights sleep. Planned to use 2 gels for this run and go with [email protected]+20%, [email protected]+15%, [email protected]+10% & last mile @MP if I could. Same route as previous 20m

    Started off and could tell my legs were feeling it already, braced myself for the next 3 hours of possible hurt. The pace was slow for MP+20% and started to get into some sort of rhythm. Took first gel at mile 7. Miles 8 to 13 were a slog, an out & back section which seemed to go on forever. Took 2nd gel at mile 13.5 just before I passed my car to collect some water.

    My quads were burning & back of hamstrings were too. Took advice my OH gave me when using water to cool you down. Most people poor it over their heads but its not the most effective. Pour water over the back of your neck, base of back and front of both quads. I also splashed some on my hamstrings. It really did did the job and my legs were instantly cooled as I started the last 6 miles

    Got some energy from somewhere to up the pace to MP+10%. Then I experienced my first emergency pitstop situation. I looked around in panic to find a suitable location, which was down a steep incline off the running path (I now understand how runners always discover dead bodies). The sensation of the whole world wanting to fly out of my a$$ as I went into some matrix style crab position, only to produce the smallest amount of liquid. I'm guessing most experienced runners will be laughing at me on this, I'm sure it'll happen a lot more times.

    Anyway, it did the job (sorry!!). I had 3 miles left and was able to run with a bit more form. Was able to finish with the last mile at MP. If these practice runs are to replicate the final 20 miles of the marathon, I hope to be able to run the last mile like that one. All in all a good week, glad to get the highest week mileage of the plan out of the way.

    Weekly Miles - 56 (highest ever again)
    Yearly mileage - 1090

    Sitting here tonight and legs are very tired. Hopefully will be able to rest them up tomorrow before going again. Plan calls for a race this week, 8-15k, but can only do a 5k on Thursday evening. This will be followed the next evening by a 17m MLR - again a MLR on super tired legs!. I had to re-adjust the weekly plan for the 5k and will replace a VO2 session with a GA run. VO2 session two days before the race would not have been a great idea.

    DCM TRAINING - WEEK 12

    Plan|Monday|Tuesday|Wednesday|Thursday|Friday|Saturday|Sunday|Total
    P&D|Rest|GA 8m|Recovery 5m, 6x100m|5k Race|17m MLR|Rest|12m MLR|48m




  • That’s some week T-great mileage- I’m not looking forward to it already!




  • Dealerz2.0 wrote: »
    That’s some week T-great mileage- I’m not looking forward to it already!

    Just take each run at a time F and you'll get through it. Soon enough it'll be next week and it'll all be behind you. I've seen loads of experienced runners state that running on tired legs is a great way to improve your running so I'm hoping that is the case




  • DCM Training Week 12

    First race of the plan this week with the 5k on Thursday. Had some easyish runs before then

    Tuesday 3rd - 8m GA, 9.17avg
    On the plan, this was meant to be a VO2 session, 5x600m, but having to race on the Thursday instead of the Saturday I decided to change this to a GA run. Legs were groggy on the run, with the remnants of the Sunday's 20 miles still remaining.

    Wednesday 4th - 5m Recovery, 6x100m
    Did 4 miles recovery, then the strides and 1 mile barefoot. Legs were still feeling it so was unsure about doing the strides. Got through them at medium pace

    Thursday 5th - St Lukes 5k
    Chip Time - 19.26
    I'm still in disbelief about this time but will try to go through the race description as best I can. It's the first race i've run with my OH and we kinda spurred each other on (well maybe just me being spurred on)

    Arrived at the car park near the finishing line and went to collect our numbers from reception of St Lukes home. Did an initial 1.5m warmup in my Brooks near the finishing line. Noticed there will be a head wind for a lot of the last mile. Changed into the Vaporflys & jogged the half mile to the start line. Sun was starting to disappear too.

    Start line was a bit chaotic, lot of delays closing the road so you had half the road full of runners with cars & buses trying to squeeze through. With no start pens or chip platform at the start, everyone was vying for the front. It was one of those 3-2-1 go starts. My OH was going to pace us at 6.20 so I didn't need to worry about it

    Mile 1
    Good start to the race, I felt the pace was a bit slow as lots of people were passing us but glancing at the watch and we were bang on 6.20. I settled into that pace. Sure enough after the first half mile, we started to go past the eager beavers who went too fast initially. Went from the road to the railway line walkway. Bit of a slip on the turn but I deserved it for trying to take the corner too tight and using the grass verge. It was difficult to pass other runners, check your pace and also watch out for walkers coming the opposite direction. 6.20 mile

    Mile 2
    There is a footbridge that crosses over the South Link and is quite steep. I attacked the initial incline but then held off in case I gassed myself near the top. The rest of race was along the same walkway that goes all around the coast. Again, myself & my OH were going strong at the same pace constantly overtaking other runners. At 1.5 miles in I started to feel it (which is good for me). My breathing was ok but the legs were asking me what the hell I was doing 6.20 mile

    Mile 3
    Most of my long runs are along this route so I knew how far I had to go to get to the finishing line. My OH tells me early in this mile that we've got sub 20 in the bag - Im thinking yes but only if I can keep this pace up and don't crash and burn. We come up to a group of runners that seem to be running a LSR to me, in my infinite wisdom I choose to push past them at a greater pace and regret it immediately - I felt shattered. Half a mile left and I said to OH that I've nothing left. Just get to the last bend and it'll be over soon 6.10 mile

    Last bit
    Turned the corner and the finishing line seems ages away. I tried to speed up and pretend its just a stride that I'm doing, no chance. I see the clock in the distance saying x.55, that can't be right i say - realise as I get closer that it was 18.55. I was struggling to understand it but gave it all I could crossing the line in 19.26 5.29 pace

    To say I chuffed with this result is an understatement. Thought I could get sub 20 but didn't expect to get that far under it. Obviously the training plan is helping me loads but for this race, my OH pacing me was a great help. And the Vaporflys too, but we won't mention the magic shoes. Calves are a bit tender after the race

    Oh now I just have to run 17 miles tomorrow evening - damn you marathon plan!!




  • Congrats. Great racing. Nice evening too for it. Temperatures dropped nicely.




  • Well done! Great time :D




  • Brilliant running - trust in the plan, eh! The morning after the night before, how does this performance impact your targets for DCM? I ask because I ran a PB 5k recently and it has hardened my resolve to push for 3.30 in Dublin - but some of my more experienced running friends are suggesting that I should / could be pushing for something better based on that result and tempo / intervals pace. I remain doubtful and don't want to jeopardise what only 3 months ago seemed like a dream time.

    Of course, a validating run will the Belfast or Dublin half marathon, but would be interested in your thoughts (or it could be too early for that!)


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  • My targets remain the same, after all it's just a 5k race so doesn't prove anything to me endurance wise. I still plan to go for 3.30 and will not be targeting anything faster (unless I push on in the last few miles). The HM in Charleville next weekend will tell me more about my ability to get that 3.30. If I can get around 1.35 in that HM, then I'm happy with 3.30. Anything slower and I may have to rethink times to 3.40.

    It may be different for you as it's not your first marathon, so you may be able for faster. I wouldn't be basing it off a 5k though. What is your target time for the HM?




  • Yeah, endurance will be the big test. I'll be aiming for somewhere between 1.35 and 1.40 for the half - if I can maintain 7.20min - 7.30min miles for the first 8 or 9 miles, and then step it up for the last few miles, that will be the ideal strategy. But the negative split is easier on paper than in reality!! I would be happy that if I can run 1.40 in the half in good shape, then 3.30 will be achievable for the marathon. Again, there's a suggestion to push all out for this half as the tester - if it works and sub 1.35 is achievable, then a great indicator. If it doesn't work, then again still a good marker. Nothing lost, just all part of the training for DCM. But then, my go to "coach" is a sports psychologist and sub 3hr marathoner, so I need to keep that in mind!!




  • As stated to me by Skyblue further back, I should be racing the HM as aggressively as possible to see how I'm fixed for DCM. A 1.35 HM time is a good indicator for 3.30 (2xHM, plus 20). You should do the same for your HM, go all out and get the best time you can. You'll recover in time for DCM.




  • Sounds right - good luck in your upcoming half and for the training ahead.




  • Nice racing. Super job too by the OH.




  • DCM Training Week 12 - continued

    From the euphoria of the previous night's race 5k PB, I swiftly came back to reality for the rest of the week!

    Friday 6th - 17m MLR, 9.12avg
    After last night's run, the legs were feeling really achy and tired. Calves were quite tight too. Left it as late as possible to do the run. Legs loosened out a bit during the day's walking.

    Started at a slowish pace. Had to rethink course route because of the failing light in the evening. So had to do 2 loops of the Mahon walkway and then out to Passage and back. Would be a mile short but shouldn't be an issue.

    First loop was ok but was really feeling it the start of the 2nd (mile 6), took 1st gel. I normally finish these long runs on the 2nd loop so mentally my body was thinking I was finishing the end of that loop (mile 11). My quads, calves & hamstrings were on fire. Reached the car with 6 miles to go, was so tempted to call it quits then. Couldn't do it so took 2nd gel and drenched both my legs in water. Out I went again for a horrible 5.5 miles

    I think I got a small glimpse into the suffering I will endure during DCM and this is what the plan intended. Every part of my legs hurt but I kept it going as best I could. It was now pitch black, with the lighting along the walkway my only companion. Decided once I got to the car, to call it a night & forget the last half mile. Right move but it still bugs me.

    Updated Strava run description as "Hell on earth" immediately after I finished, so maybe was being a tad overdramatic thinking back. But it did hurt. Got home for 9.30 and was like a zombie - straight to bed by 10pm.

    Sunday 8th - 12m GA, 9.29avg
    Was feeling a bit run down on Saturday following Friday's experience. Also my legs were feeling really tender. I was afraid for this run and how it would go. Changed it from a MLR to a GA run and once I started running, I just went with a pace that felt easy.

    Was running on grass so it wasn't as telling on the legs. There were times where fatigue was a factor but overall it felt like a normal run thankfully. Feeling good this evening for the first time all weekend

    Weekly mileage - 47.5 (that half mile I missed!!)
    Yearly mileage - 1138

    Overall delighted with how the 5k went on Thursday, really unbelievable for me. However, what followed was a severe reality check that will keep me grounded for the foreseeable future. Will rest up this week and hopefully recover in time for Charleville next Sunday. Split 1 week of the plan into 2 weeks in order to race the HM properly

    DCM TRAINING - WEEK 13a

    Plan|Monday|Tuesday|Wednesday|Thursday|Friday|Saturday|Sunday|Total
    P&D|Rest|Recovery 5m|8m GA|Recovery 5m|Rest|2m GA|Charleville HM|34M




  • Well done on sub 20. Great run and great report.




  • Congrats on the sub 20! Always a big deal to run a 5k PB starting with a 1 :)




  • Best of luck tomorrow T


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  • All the best tomorrow T, ya are well set after your training block and that 5k time.


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