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Little Tern Project - 23 foxes shot

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    #92
    Working class heroes
    Registered Users Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭Working class heroes


    Bogwoppit wrote: »
    The problem with this is that by the time you’ve gotten to your last resort (which is proven to work), there will probably be no terns left.

    I have direct experience of dealing with foxes and keeping them away from nesting birds (nothing to do with bwi), fences and scare tactics are unreliable and will not work forever, relocation is not legal and quite cruel.
    Shooting is humane and works when done right, end of. This is fact.
    Not coming from some random farmer I met with a fence.
    The experts on the ground in being agree.
    A fence only has to fail once and the entire years recruitment of terns will be wiped out/slaughtered, they’re easy pickings.
    Dislike it all you want but that is the reality.
    Shooting is not humane not by any stretch. So no it’s not “end of” as you put it.

    Have to agree to disagree so. No disrespect meant but I just can’t take the word of BWI or indeed farmers (or anyone with a starting point of disliking foxes for whatever reason) on this with respect to all methods been looked at, just don’t believe it has been done to any great extent.

    Edit: of course BWI would agree with you.

    Racism is now hiding behind the cloak of Community activism.



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    #93
    Working class heroes
    Registered Users Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭Working class heroes


    Can I ask, how is the population of the Tern doing and are they located at any other site in the country?

    Racism is now hiding behind the cloak of Community activism.



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    #94
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    Working class heroes wrote: »
    Genuine question. Did you seek/receive any financial help. Methods aside your intentions are good and the burden should not fall solely on you, as an individual.

    In NPWS Corncrake Farm Plan scheme. Get grant and technical assistance to create best practice corncrake habitat: extensive nettle/hogweed/iris cover areas. Sow crop of fodder radish for threatened twite. Delay mowing of meadows till mid-September.


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    #95
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    FirstIn wrote: »
    The tern area is small. Proper electric fencing could not be that expensive. I bet your corncrake area is larger.

    I’m saddened to read of a new low in depraved behaviours on this thread. Snares and lamping. Sick.

    Tern area is smaller, however terns can nest on different areas of beach from year to year. As well as damage from winter storms the cost for proper fencing would be much larger because it would have to be done yearly.

    Snare are only set out when somebody is present to check them 3 times daily. Snare has a stop on it so holds the fox rather than strangling them, as would happen without a stop.

    Lad who lamps them will only take shot when he is sure of kill.

    Foxes are removed as humanely as possible. Only 157 calling male corncrake in Ireland this year. Over 100,000 foxes. Which is more important. Easy to call it "depraved" when you looking from the outside!


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    #96
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,525 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    If you are fencing off a beach with electric fence, how would you fence down to the water line?

    Even with a fancy fence inland wouldn't the fox just go around the end?


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    #97
    Working class heroes
    Registered Users Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭Working class heroes


    Capercaillie wrote: »
    Tern area is smaller, however terns can nest on different areas of beach from year to year. As well as damage from winter storms the cost for proper fencing would be much larger because it would have to be done yearly.

    Snare are only set out when somebody is present to check them 3 times daily. Snare has a stop on it so holds the fox rather than strangling them, as would happen without a stop.

    Lad who lamps them will only take shot when he is sure of kill.

    Foxes are removed as humanely as possible. Only 157 calling male corncrake in Ireland this year. Over 100,000 foxes. Which is more important. Easy to call it "depraved" when you looking from the outside!
    Bit of a red herring on the old fence argument there C.
    If a fence is erected right it shouldn’t blow down. If it does I’d be having a word with the contractor.

    Racism is now hiding behind the cloak of Community activism.



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    #98
    Bogwoppit
    Registered Users Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭Bogwoppit


    Working class heroes wrote: »
    Bit of a red herring on the old fence argument there C.
    If a fence is erected right it shouldn’t blow down. If it does I’d be having a word with the contractor.

    Have you ever tried to put a fence on a beach?


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    #99
    Working class heroes
    Registered Users Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭Working class heroes


    Bogwoppit wrote: »
    Have you ever tried to put a fence on a beach?

    No. But I know plenty who have.

    Racism is now hiding behind the cloak of Community activism.



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    #100
    FirstIn
    Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭FirstIn


    They do build a fence. They need a better one. Also , important is, as far as I am aware the tern colony has round the clock protection. Paid and volunteer.

    So they should be able to protect it .


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    #101
    Eddie B
    Registered Users Posts: 1,974 ✭✭✭Eddie B


    I've volunteered for birdwatch Ireland in the past, and have met people from all walks of life. Volunteers and employees had one thing in common. We were all lovers of wildlife. So why do those at BWI make the decission to manage predator numbers to protect vulnerable species from disappearing altogether. The simple answer is that
    they have too. It's all well and good saying "leave the fox's alone". Find a better way, which doesn't mean killing fox's. That's a great idea. Easier said than done though.

    So where do we start. Two ways you can approach this dilemma. You can either stop managing fox numbers immediately. Go do your research. Gather the funds needed, and put your solution into practice, and dalm it, all the terns are gone! Or you can do your research. Gather the funds needed, and put your solution into practice, whilst still managing fox numbers in the area.

    I know what I'd be in favour of.


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    #102
    Working class heroes
    Registered Users Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭Working class heroes


    Eddie B wrote: »
    I've volunteered for birdwatch Ireland in the past, and have met people from all walks of life. Volunteers and employees had one thing in common. We were all lovers of wildlife. So why do those at BWI make the decission to manage predator numbers to protect vulnerable species from disappearing altogether. The simple answer is that
    they have too. It's all well and good saying "leave the fox's alone". Find a better way, which doesn't mean killing fox's. That's a great idea. Easier said than done though.

    So where do we start. Two ways you can approach this dilemma. You can either stop managing fox numbers immediately. Go do your research. Gather the funds needed, and put your solution into practice, and dalm it, all the terns are gone! Or you can do your research. Gather the funds needed, and put your solution into practice, whilst still managing fox numbers in the area.

    I know what I'd be in favour of.
    It’s a fair argument however, the fact that something isn’t easier doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done.

    Racism is now hiding behind the cloak of Community activism.



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    #103
    FirstIn
    Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭FirstIn


    Coupled to what I’ve read here and research I’ve done I am more convinced BWI have this wrong.

    Shooting them is not the answer. You shoot one , another moves in to the area. You shoot it, another moves in.

    I now think BWi are wrong re the rabbits been the reason behind so many in the area .

    The reason there appears to be so many is because they keep shooting them and others move in. It is too small of an area to have that many foxes.

    Scare the ones you have in the area is the only answer.


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    #104
    Eddie B
    Registered Users Posts: 1,974 ✭✭✭Eddie B


    Working class heroes wrote: »
    It’s a fair argument however, the fact that something isn’t easier doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done.
    Yes true, but it's very easy for you, or anyone else to say this or that should be done, from your arm chair. Im not trying to be smart. Its just the reality of it all. Birdwatch Ireland aint got no goldmine. That's why they rely on volunteers so much. In fact without volunteers, these projects would not be possible. We've got to be real here. When it comes to losing a species forever, then it has to be at any cost, until a better solution is found.


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    #105
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    Topgear on Dave wrote: »
    If you are fencing off a beach with electric fence, how would you fence down to the water line?

    Even with a fancy fence inland wouldn't the fox just go around the end?

    Tern generally nest above the water line on shingle and not on sand. The fence generally encloses as much of colony as possible, on both sides. Sometimes you can get smaller satellite colonies.


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    #106
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    FirstIn wrote: »
    Coupled to what I’ve read here and research I’ve done I am more convinced BWI have this wrong.

    Shooting them is not the answer. You shoot one , another moves in to the area. You shoot it, another moves in.

    I now think BWi are wrong re the rabbits been the reason behind so many in the area .

    The reason there appears to be so many is because they keep shooting them and others move in. It is too small of an area to have that many foxes.

    Scare the ones you have in the area is the only answer.

    They already try and scare them away, night wardens are present. If scaring worked BWI would not bother with culling!


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    #107
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    Working class heroes wrote: »
    No. But I know plenty who have.

    Terns can nest in different areas on different years............ Storms will destroy fence, beach system is dynamic not static.


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    #108
    FirstIn
    Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭FirstIn


    Capercaillie wrote: »
    They already try and scare them away, night wardens are present. If scaring worked BWI would not bother with culling!

    BWI employ guys to walk about at night to shoot the foxes. Fact. How far do they go with scaring? How good are their fences? Not good enough. They have an electric fence and a night warden and they can't keep the foxes out. That I can't understand. They have it very wrong.

    They have taken the easy option.

    And I believe their easy option is a stupid barbaric one. Read my earlier post, do your research, they are adding to the slaughter and the problem by shooting, foxes will continue to come in to the area. You shoot one, another one comes in, then that and another.

    The rabbit explanation is hocus-pocus


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    #109
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,815 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Mod final warning

    Drop the smart comments sniping at each other. Drop the conspiracies that people from BWI are descending here en masse.

    If you cant have a civil conversation without sniping at each other or accusations of BWI shilling then we may have to lock the thread

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #110
    archer22
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    It's more than farcical that the demise of both the Tern and the Corncrake was caused by Humans.

    And Foxes are now the ones getting the bullets and snares because of it.

    You couldn't bloody well make it up :mad:


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    #111
    Working class heroes
    Registered Users Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭Working class heroes


    Capercaillie wrote: »
    Terns can nest in different areas on different years............ Storms will destroy fence, beach system is dynamic not static.

    I won’t Labour the point re fences, agree to disagree etc.

    I asked earlier and got no answer. You might be able to answer for me. This is a genuine question. How are the Terns doing population wise are they on any other sites in Ireland.

    Racism is now hiding behind the cloak of Community activism.



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    #112
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    Working class heroes wrote: »
    I won’t Labour the point re fences, agree to disagree etc.

    I asked earlier and got no answer. You might be able to answer for me. This is a genuine question. How are the Terns doing population wise are they on any other sites in Ireland.

    Colony at Baltray and small colony at Portrane. Small colonies out West I believe. Wardens protect colony at Baltray and Portrane. I don't work for BWI so would not have figures for colonies.


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    #113
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    archer22 wrote: »
    It's more than farcical that the demise of both the Tern and the Corncrake was caused by Humans.

    And Foxes are now the ones getting the bullets and snares because of it.

    You couldn't bloody well make it up :mad:

    Corncrake on verge of extinction in Ireland and fox control is part of management to try and protect them!


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    #114
    FirstIn
    Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭FirstIn


    Capercaillie wrote: »
    Corncrake on verge of extinction in Ireland and fox control is part of management to try and protect them!

    I don't believe the corncrake gets round the clock protection, unlike this tern colony.

    Also, the 23 shot,, that is provisional. Confirmed as provisional by BWI in writing. Which to me means likely to be higher We could well end up at the 32 i first heard through word of mouth. I am going to push them for the final figure.

    I hadn't visited the site in some time, I took a walk down there this evening. (Obviously the season is over so no activity)

    But some observations;
    1: Reaffirmed my belief the area can be properly secured with electric fencing and onsite human presence.
    2: Speaking to some locals living close (as close as you can be to the area), the rabbit story is rubbish. There is no abundance of rabbits. They are upset about the foxes been shot and pointed out to me that much of the land is too soft - it's a bog and floods and thus not suitable for large numbers of rabbits to burrow. Indeed hares are seen more often.

    They shoot one fox, another one moves in to the area, they shoot that, another moves in, another shot etc etc. They think the area is full of foxes because of rabbits!, NO, because you keep shooting the foxes. This is a disgrace.

    I think BWI have serious questions to answer. I had a long call with them before and the more i learn about what has happened the more disappointed I am with them.

    I am going to try and call them again.


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    #115
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Working class heroes wrote: »
    I won’t Labour the point re fences, agree to disagree etc.

    I asked earlier and got no answer. You might be able to answer for me. This is a genuine question. How are the Terns doing population wise are they on any other sites in Ireland.

    Here's a thread which will answer some of your questions: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057982028 - in the Nature & Birdwatching Forum where this discussion would have been better raised.

    ****



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    #116
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    FirstIn wrote: »
    I don't believe the corncrake gets round the clock protection, unlike this tern colony.

    Also, the 23 shot,, that is provisional. Confirmed as provisional by BWI in writing. Which to me means likely to be higher We could well end up at the 32 i first heard through word of mouth. I am going to push them for the final figure.

    I hadn't visited the site in some time, I took a walk down there this evening. (Obviously the season is over so no activity)

    But some observations;
    1: Reaffirmed my belief the area can be properly secured with electric fencing and onsite human presence.
    2: Speaking to some locals living close (as close as you can be to the area), the rabbit story is rubbish. There is no abundance of rabbits. They are upset about the foxes been shot and pointed out to me that much of the land is too soft - it's a bog and floods and thus not suitable for large numbers of rabbits to burrow. Indeed hares are seen more often.

    They shoot one fox, another one moves in to the area, they shoot that, another moves in, another shot etc etc. They think the area is full of foxes because of rabbits!, NO, because you keep shooting the foxes. This is a disgrace.

    I think BWI have serious questions to answer. I had a long call with them before and the more i learn about what has happened the more disappointed I am with them.

    I am going to try and call them again.
    Yes you would have to keep culling foxes because you get backfill. Shooting 1-2 foxes is not going to achieve anything, you need to ensure that no fox is allowed near site. Just putting fence up and scaring the foxes is not 100% effective, hence the culling. If you had some practical experience in ground nesting birds conservation you would realize that.

    Corncrakes on farm have optimal habitat and nest in large nettle beds. They are less vulnerable to predation, nevertheless if a fox sets up a den anywhere near farm they will be removed.


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    #117
    FirstIn
    Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭FirstIn


    Capercaillie wrote: »
    Yes you would have to keep culling foxes because you get backfill. Shooting 1-2 foxes is not going to achieve anything, you need to ensure that no fox is allowed near site. Just putting fence up and scaring the foxes is not 100% effective, hence the culling. If you had some practical experience in ground nesting birds conservation you would realize that.

    Corncrakes on farm have optimal habitat and nest in large nettle beds. They are less vulnerable to predation, nevertheless if a fox sets up a den anywhere near farm they will be removed.

    Shooting them isn’t 100% effective either. That’s for sure. Please ask BWI on this. They shot north of 23 and still lost tern / eggs to foxes. They’ve got it wrong.

    In previous years they shot 4 or 5 and the colony did well. This year they went mad. Slaughtering so many foxes.

    An electric fence should be 100% effective if correctly erected and manned.

    The corncrake situation. there’s none in Wicklow. This is a Wicklow forum debating a topic raised which is a wicklow issue.

    As can be seen this is an emotive subject. Getting a lot of attention on here ( which is usually very quiet) in a short period.

    Bringing it to the attention of others is important and Facebook is probably best for that. Or if anyone has other suggestions ?


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    #118
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    Firstin, perhaps next year you could assist BWI in construction/finance of a 100% effective predator control fence. I know of no little tern colony that is protected by such a fence. You could also assist at night wardening at colony, night time is when most fox attacks take place. Hands on conservation is always more productive!


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    #119
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    FirstIn wrote: »
    Shooting them isn’t 100% effective either.

    Regardless of your views on the matter the fact is dead foxes don't kill birds and shooting is only ineffective if the foxes are not shot in sufficient numbers.
    In previous years they shot 4 or 5 and the colony did well.

    Maybe they did well because there were less foxes were around which is why only 4 or 5 were shot?
    An electric fence should be 100% effective if correctly erected and manned.

    Manned by who?
    Or if anyone has other suggestions ?

    Maybe if there were large numbers of volunteers that would patrol the fence shooting wouldn't be the only workable option? Because right now there is no practical alternative.


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    #120
    FirstIn
    Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭FirstIn


    2011 wrote: »
    Regardless of your views on the matter the fact is dead foxes don't kill birds and shooting is only ineffective if the foxes are not shot in sufficient numbers.



    Maybe they did well because there were less foxes were around which is why only 4 or 5 were shot?



    Manned by who?



    Maybe if there were large numbers of volunteers that would patrol the fence shooting wouldn't be the only workable option? Because right now there is no practical alternative.

    They lost terns to the foxes this year. They shot more than 23 (provisional figure is 23 I bet it will be more)
    So how many foxes do you think they should shoot? All the foxes in the area around the colony? What area would that be? Remember foxes can travel big distances.

    The site is manned 24/7 by volunteers and paid personnel.

    There is a practical alternative , proper scare and electric fencing with the onsite attendance.

    I wonder , are the gunmen this year the same as previous years. ?

    It would be good to know from BWI

    1: how many foxes did they shoot (provisionally they say 23)
    2: how do they know for certain that the reason for the high number of foxes is the abundance of rabbits and not because they kept shooting foxes thus creating a void to be filled
    (The rabbit story is rubbish , the land behind the colony is below see level and no way suitable for large numbers of rabbits, why would this year see an abundance of rabbits over last year, ? )
    3: I reckon , just thinking this through , their gunmen this year are different to last year. Over zealously shooting foxes . Simple question - did you have the same hired personnel shooting the foxes as last year ? Did they tell you about the over abundance of rabbits ?
    4: are they going to persist in this slaughter next year?


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    #121
    Working class heroes
    Registered Users Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭Working class heroes


    Capercaillie wrote: »
    Firstin, perhaps next year you could assist BWI in construction/finance of a 100% effective predator control fence. I know of no little tern colony that is protected by such a fence. You could also assist at night wardening at colony, night time is when most fox attacks take place. Hands on conservation is always more productive!

    So you accept there is an “100% effective predator control fence” then?

    Racism is now hiding behind the cloak of Community activism.



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