Little Tern Project - 23 foxes shot

FirstIn

Bird Watch Ireland confirmed to me they had 23 foxes shot as part of the little tern project this year. Which i think is abhorrent.

I know they have to protect the terns/nests/eggs but surely there is a better way of protecting them that doesn't involve shooting so many foxes. Better fencing, scare tactics or trapping and releasing the foxes springs to mind.

Killing so many foxes, especially during the summer when vixen are trying to feed their cubs is awful. Well I certainly think so.

I note the Bird Watch Ireland tern blog references foxes , indeed shows a picture of one which was present when the kids from a local school visited. Saying "we were accosted by a very tame fox" and goes on to say the school children ".. were more than happy to have encountered the sly fox". I wonder did they mention to the kids that their hired night time gunmen will likely have the tame fox shot before morning?

If you feel like i do then perhaps you could call BWI and voice your unhappiness, or indeed the National Parks and Wildlife Service who are ultimately in charge of the project. I have done so.

Del.Monte

Where did you get the information about the number of foxes shot? I see no mention of it on the Little Tern blog here: http://littleternconservation.blogspot.com/

You might get a more 'useful' response to your post than the one above if it was moved to the Nature and Bird Watching forum https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=406

FirstIn

Del.Monte wrote: »

Where did you get the information about the number of foxes shot? I see no mention of it on the Little Tern blog here: http://littleternconservation.blogspot.com/

You might get a more 'useful' response to your post than the one above if it was moved to the Nature and Bird Watching forum https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=406

I called BWI and they confirmed 23.

The reason I called was because I’d heard talk of a higher figure , over 30. This shocked me so I wanted to find out for sure.

Del.Monte

I find the figure difficult to believe, but if was done it was probably worth it as foxes are not an endangered species whereas Little Terns certainly are.

FirstIn

I posted this on the Wickow forum - adding it here due to its proximity to Greystones.

Mod note: No duplicate threads please.

SuperSean11

How much is a fox coat worth?

FirstIn

If it's his mother's, for the first 4 -5 months, to this guy everything.

Gaspode

FirstIn wrote: »

I posted this on the Wickow forum - adding it here

Please dont.

Maudi

I’m also delighted the tern colony has done well
I’m an avid wildlife fan
But I was horrified to learn of the huge fox cull this year at the Kilcoole tern colony
Over 30 fox shot!
Probably mother’s out looking for food for cubs
This is absolutely unacceptable from birdwatch Ireland
Has anybody else heard of this cull?

2011

The flip side is that it’s good news for the terns

Maudi

2011 wrote: »

The flip side is that it’s good news for the terns

There is no “ flipside”
Dozens of Fox cubs have probably had horrific drawn out deaths just because of some over zealous idiots are let loose on a tern colony, one or two problem foxes over a season may be acceptable but over 30 ? No way
Maybe bwi need to invest in better fences and cut back on rifle bullets

2011

Maudi wrote: »

There is no “ flipside”

.....except for the terns.
Perhaps the they deserve to live too?

Maybe bwi need to invest in better fences and cut back on rifle bullets

It is actually quite hard to build a fox proof fence. First of all they frequently dig under it. additionally foxes have been known to scramble over 6 foot fences. So a suitable fence would be very expensive.

Xterminator

So its good to introduce birds of prey and discuss bring back wolves, and the like.

Cause nature is so humane - right /s

But its not okay to actually go out a kill predators to carve a niche out for the purpose of protecting the habitat of an indigenous species that has had its natural habitats decimated by human encroachment - eg bull island.

Erm does anyone else see a blatant double standard here? No one wants to see terns wiped from ireland entirely, but because foxes are cute ....

FirstIn

Look at the BWI site and jobs. They’ve plenty of money to pay for hired gunmen. Spend it on fencing , trapping and scare tactics.

2011

FirstIn wrote: »

Look at the BWI site and jobs. They’ve plenty of money to pay for hired gunmen.

“Hired gunmen” sound very dramatic
Most people call them “gamekeepers”:

https://birdwatchireland.ie/get-involved/jobs/jobs-2019-tern-project-conservation-gamekeepers-and-wardens/

shellie70

FirstIn wrote: »

Bird Watch Ireland confirmed to me they had 23 foxes shot as part of the little tern project this year. Which i think is abhorrent.

I know they have to protect the terns/nests/eggs but surely there is a better way of protecting them that doesn't involve shooting so many foxes. Better fencing, scare tactics or trapping and releasing the foxes springs to mind.

Killing so many foxes, especially during the summer when vixen are trying to feed their cubs is awful. Well I certainly think so.

I note the Bird Watch Ireland tern blog references foxes , indeed shows a picture of one which was present when the kids from a local school visited. Saying "we were accosted by a very tame fox" and goes on to say the school children ".. were more than happy to have encountered the sly fox". I wonder did they mention to the kids that their hired night time gunmen will likely have the tame fox shot before morning?

If you feel like i do then perhaps you could call BWI and voice your unhappiness, or indeed the National Parks and Wildlife Service who are ultimately in charge of the project. I have done so.

I think cull is slightly dramatic and you should probably look up the meaning before using it in this context.I don’t think the foxes were shot for fun and wouldn’t think any warden gets pleasure in making that decision .The reality is far more foxes are killed on the roads and by pest control for less reasons than protecting one of the rarest breeding Terns in Ireland .You have to be realistic.Either you want Little Terns and Foxes in Kilcoole or JUST foxes 🦊 .Perhaps you should have visited the actual site .spend a few nights trying to protect the eggs and chicks .People in glass houses etc

FirstIn

2011 wrote: »

“Hired gunmen” sound very dramatic
Most people call them “gamekeepers”:

https://birdwatchireland.ie/get-involved/jobs/jobs-2019-tern-project-conservation-gamekeepers-and-wardens/

Call them what you like - they're there to do a job and that job is disgusting. Shooting the foxes when there are alternatives. A profession I for one would not have much time for, any otters near the little terns?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/district-court/three-men-fined-over-killing-of-otter-found-dumped-in-bag-1.3936293

"
Three men fined over killing of otter found dumped in bag
Trio who were working as gamekeepers convicted over animal’s death in Co Waterford
"

FirstIn

shellie70 wrote: »

I think cull is slightly dramatic and you should probably look up the meaning before using it in this context.I don’t think the foxes were shot for fun and wouldn’t think any warden gets pleasure in making that decision .The reality is far more foxes are killed on the roads and by pest control for less reasons than protecting one of the rarest breeding Terns in Ireland .You have to be realistic.Either you want Little Terns and Foxes in Kilcoole or JUST foxes �� .Perhaps you should have visited the actual site .spend a few nights trying to protect the eggs and chicks .People in glass houses etc

I don't see it as a binary 1 or 0. Little terns or foxes.
There are alternatives to shooting the foxes. You are missing the point of this thread.

And when it comes to visiting, I hope to do so and make sure all are aware of the high number of foxes shot. It's interesting the blog doesn't mention this fact. I wonder why?

.243

FirstIn wrote: »

There are alternatives to shooting the foxes.

like what ???,if youve a better option every livestock owner that gets affected by foxes would like to know too

Working class heroes

How is this even legal. Who/what body sanctioned this?

When the proposed greenway is built will the walkers/cyclists be shot as well?

Annasopra

Working class heroes wrote: »

How is this even legal. Who/what body sanctioned this?

When the proposed greenway is built will the walkers/cyclists be shot as well?

What?

Working class heroes

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

What?

Two straight forward questions.... the second maybe slightly tongue in cheek but I’d hazard a guess the bird watching few know what I mean.

Annasopra

Working class heroes wrote: »

Two straight forward questions.... the second maybe slightly tongue in cheek but I’d hazard a guess the bird watching few know what I mean.

A tad overdramatic maybe

Working class heroes

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

A tad overdramatic maybe

Well yes, exactly. A bit like killing 23 foxes.

Alun

Working class heroes wrote: »

How is this even legal. Who/what body sanctioned this?

Under what law do you think shooting foxes is illegal?

2011

Working class heroes wrote: »

How is this even legal.

Pest control.

Who/what body sanctioned this?

The government.

When the proposed greenway is built will the walkers/cyclists be shot as well?

No.
Humans remain a protected species however vermin will continue to be shot in a legal manner. Sometimes the line between human and vermin becomes blurred but that is for another thread.

Working class heroes

Alun wrote: »

Under what law do you think shooting foxes is illegal?

I don’t know, that’s why I asked.
I just can’t fathom how anyone could justify the killing of 23 foxes. The are been punished for been a successful species whilst another one is been rewarded for been far less so. It’s immoral.

Working class heroes

2011 wrote: »

Pest control.



The government.



No.
Humans remain a protected species however vermin will continue to be shot in a legal manner. Sometimes the line between human and vermin becomes blurred but that is for another thread.

“Pest control” is not an answer to my question, How is this legal. I’ve elaborated on this in my previous post.
Can you elaborate on your government jibe please, maybe some specifics?

You seem to have your mind made up that foxes are vermin. They are not. The term “vermin” is defined in relation to human activities so in the context of this thread it does not apply.

Alun

Working class heroes wrote: »

How is this legal.

I'll ask again, point me to a piece of legislation that forbids the shooting of foxes. Hint: There isn't one.

Working class heroes

Alun wrote: »

I'll ask again, point me to a piece of legislation that forbids the shooting of foxes. Hint: There isn't one.

You can ask as many times as you like.
I was asking a rhetorical question.
Are you familiar with the term “a rhetorical question “ do you need a hint?

delta_bravo

Working class heroes wrote: »

The are been punished for been a successful species whilst another one is been rewarded for been far less so. It’s immoral.

When you mean reward do you mean protected to a level that tries to prevent their extinction? Ridiculous argument.

Working class heroes

delta_bravo wrote: »

When you mean reward do you mean protected to a level that tries to prevent their extinction? Ridiculous argument.

You are misrepresenting my point. I’m all for preventing their extinction but not at any cost i.e. the unnecessary mass killing of foxes. It smacks of hypocrisy.

Del.Monte

Anyway, it won't be a problem soon when your greenway is bulldozed through from Wicklow/Greystones - no terns and no foxes - problem solved.

2011

Working class heroes wrote: »

“Pest control” is not an answer to my question, How is this legal.

Anything that is not illegal is legal.
If foxes were a protected species then it would be a different matter. As they are considered to be pests / vermin just like rats they can legally be shot.

Here is a really good link:

https://nargc.ie/predator-control-and-the-law/

Working class heroes

2011 wrote: »

Anything that is not illegal is legal.
If foxes were a protected species then it would be a different matter. As they are considered to be pests / vermin just like rats they can legally be shot.

Here is a really good link:

https://nargc.ie/predator-control-and-the-law/

Who’d have thought an association of gun clubs consider foxes vermin eh? No. vested interest there then, is there?

Again foxes are not pests. Just because a gun club say they are does not make it so.

Working class heroes

Del.Monte wrote: »

Anyway, it won't be a problem soon when your greenway is bulldozed through from Wicklow/Greystones - no terns and no foxes - problem solved.

Not “my” greenway no more than Kilcoole beach is your beach.

Anyway you may have half a point, as foxes don’t like human interaction a greenway would assist in keeping them away from the chucks.

Happy days, everyone happy.

Bogwoppit

Working class heroes wrote: »

I don’t know, that’s why I asked.
I just can’t fathom how anyone could justify the killing of 23 foxes. The are been punished for been a successful species whilst another one is been rewarded for been far less so. It’s immoral.

Humans are far more successful than foxes, by your argument that means we can kill them all.

Bogwoppit

Currently there is a massive overpopulation of foxes in the country due to a lack of predators and an adaptation to the urban environment among other things.
Little terns are worth saving are they not?
Relocation is not a solution due to the high population levels, the relocated foxes don’t do well and all you’re doing is increasing fox numbers in a different area which is already overpopulated.
Fencing is impractical and expensive, foxes are very clever and any gamekeeper or chicken keeper will tell you that a fence will only slow down a fox, not stop it. It’s quite possible that erecting a fence may also disturb the teens and cause them to stop breeding or abandon the site. Shooting at night with a sound moderated rifle will cause little disturbance.
Shooting vixens with cubs is not ideal and best practice is to check if a vixen is nursing and if so then to try find cubs and humanely despatch them. They aren’t usually that difficult to find.
The people employed to control the foxes certainly aren’t doing it to make money, they’re probably covering their costs and not much more.
Shooting foxes is a quick and painless death for the fox when done right and is perfectly legal and quite acceptable in order to protect an endangered species.
There are plenty of instances around the world where similar practices are undertaken, should NZ cancel it’s program of trying to eradicate rats and stoats to protect their ground nesting birds because people are offended by the mass killing of rats and stoats (rats aren’t cute but stoats most certainly are)?

2011

Working class heroes wrote: »

Who’d have thought an association of gun clubs consider foxes vermin eh? No. vested interest there then, is there?

I think you will find that the authorities / government share that view.
I provided that link to show you the legal position.

RosieJoe

Here you are arguing over 23 foxes, what about the entire colony of rats removed from Dalkey Island just to allow the successful breeding of the rare Arctic Tern, see here :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Are you all going to complain about the death of the rats too? Or are they less likely to provoke a response than the death of the foxes?

Working class heroes

Bogwoppit wrote: »

Currently there is a massive overpopulation of foxes in the country due to a lack of predators and an adaptation to the urban environment among other things.
Little terns are worth saving are they not?
Relocation is not a solution due to the high population levels, the relocated foxes don’t do well and all you’re doing is increasing fox numbers in a different area which is already overpopulated.
Fencing is impractical and expensive, foxes are very clever and any gamekeeper or chicken keeper will tell you that a fence will only slow down a fox, not stop it. It’s quite possible that erecting a fence may also disturb the teens and cause them to stop breeding or abandon the site. Shooting at night with a sound moderated rifle will cause little disturbance.
Shooting vixens with cubs is not ideal and best practice is to check if a vixen is nursing and if so then to try find cubs and humanely despatch them. They aren’t usually that difficult to find.
The people employed to control the foxes certainly aren’t doing it to make money, they’re probably covering their costs and not much more.
Shooting foxes is a quick and painless death for the fox when done right and is perfectly legal and quite acceptable in order to protect an endangered species.
There are plenty of instances around the world where similar practices are undertaken, should NZ cancel it’s program of trying to eradicate rats and stoats to protect their ground nesting birds because people are offended by the mass killing of rats and stoats (rats aren’t cute but stoats most certainly are)?

Massive over population of foxes, says who? Please don’t name various groups with an obvious vested interest.
Yes, LT’s are worth saving. I‘Ve never said otherwise. These birds are endangered because of us. I don’t think a rational solution is to start killing other animals. It’s shifting the blame, head in the sand stuff.
It may very well be legal to shoot foxes but, imo it’s certainly not acceptable, morally.

Working class heroes

RosieJoe wrote: »

Here you are arguing over 23 foxes, what about the entire colony of rats removed from Dalkey Island just to allow the successful breeding of the rare Arctic Tern, see here :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Are you all going to complain about the death of the rats too? Or are they less likely to provoke a response than the death of the foxes?

Yes I am arguing over 23 foxes, absolutely. The rest of your post is classic whataboutery.
By all means start a thread on rats and i’ll gladly give you my view, without childish roll eyes may I add.

Bogwoppit

Working class heroes wrote: »

Massive over population of foxes, says who? Please don’t name various groups with an obvious vested interest.
Yes, LT’s are worth saving. I‘Ve never said otherwise. These birds are endangered because of us. I don’t think a rational solution is to start killing other animals. It’s shifting the blame, head in the sand stuff.
It may very well be legal to shoot foxes but, imo it’s certainly not acceptable, morally.

Have a read of Whittled Away by Padraic Fogarty, it’s an excellent book and will help explain the overpopulation of foxes far better than I could.
Controlling foxes is not shifting the blame as they are partly to blame for the fall in tern numbers and to ignore this is, to use your term, head in sand.
To allow terns to be predated upon by foxes (you will not exclude them from the site, not in any practical or affordable way) is what would be morally wrong.

Do you have any practical alternatives?

RosieJoe

Working class heroes wrote: »

Yes I am arguing over 23 foxes, absolutely. The rest of your post is classic whataboutery.
By all means start a thread on rats and i’ll gladly give you my view, without childish roll eyes may I add.

Why is there a difference between killing foxes and killing rats? The end result is culling vermin to protect an endangered species.

archer22

There is no "overpopulation" of Foxes never has been never will be..just natural population.
Foxes population is naturally regulated according to natural food supply and more importantly available territories.

Killing Foxes to control them is a fooking moron's solution!

They simply react to the pressure by having larger litters to repopulate the new vacant territories.
There is always going to be set number of Foxes EVERYWHERE but there will never be overpopulation!.

As for Foxes and Rats...Foxes are great killers of Rats.

Bogwoppit

archer22 wrote: »

There is no "overpopulation" of Foxes never has been never will be..just natural population.
Foxes population is naturally regulated according to natural food supply and more importantly available territories.

Killing Foxes to control them is a fooking moron's solution!

They simply react to the pressure by having larger litters to repopulate the new vacant territories.
There is always going to be set number of Foxes EVERYWHERE but there will never be overpopulation!.

As for Foxes and Rats...Foxes are great killers of Rats.

Unfortunately you are incorrect, human influence has led to an overpopulation.

If, as you say, the fox population was at natural levels and should be left alone then why would the same not apply to the tern population? Or any endangered population of animals for that matter, this is obviously not the case.

Human interference in the natural environment affects populations, sometimes for the better, usually for worse.

Why can’t people have some faith in the people on the ground who are making these decisions? They are there doing the job because they have the training, expertise and experience to make these decisions. They are ecologists and environmentalists and they deem the culling of the foxes to protect the terns a necessary action. Do you not think that they might have already considered alternatives?

A set number of foxes everywhere? That makes absolutely no sense at all, seriously, how did you come up with that?

Working class heroes

Bogwoppit wrote: »

Have a read of Whittled Away by Padraic Fogarty, it’s an excellent book and will help explain the overpopulation of foxes far better than I could.
Controlling foxes is not shifting the blame as they are partly to blame for the fall in tern numbers and to ignore this is, to use your term, head in sand.
To allow terns to be predated upon by foxes (you will not exclude them from the site, not in any practical or affordable way) is what would be morally wrong.

Do you have any practical alternatives?

I’ll have a look at that sometime thanks.
As an alternative to shooting foxes how about initiating a sterilization campaign.
This could be done in conjunction with all or some of the following deterrents:

The Scarecrow. Not what it sounds like. It’s very clever, look it up.
Foxwatch alarm.
Scoot Fox Deterrent.
Prickle Strip
Night Guard Solar
Get of my Garden
Ssscat
One way gate
Bricks strip
Wash off/get off
The strick back repeller
The use of radios

Have a look at Irishwildlifematters.ie for detailed descriptions.

archer22

Bogwoppit wrote: »

Unfortunately you are incorrect, human influence has led to an overpopulation.

If, as you say, the fox population was at natural levels and should be left alone then why would the same not apply to the tern population? Or any endangered population of animals for that matter, this is obviously not the case.

Human interference in the natural environment affects populations, sometimes for the better, usually for worse.

Why can’t people have some faith in the people on the ground who are making these decisions? They are there doing the job because they have the training, expertise and experience to make these decisions. They are ecologists and environmentalists and they deem the culling of the foxes to protect the terns a necessary action. Do you not think that they might have already considered alternatives?

A set number of foxes everywhere? That makes absolutely no sense at all, seriously, how did you come up with that?

Read my post...their population is SET by food supply and most importantly by available territory, Foxes with no territory DO NOT BREED...when there is available territory BREEDING INCREASES to fill the void!.

"Why can't people have some faith in the people on the ground who are making those decisions...they have the training, expertise and experience"

Yeah like people had "faith" in the Bankers and financial advisers with the training, expertise and experience on the ground before the economic disaster a few years ago

Are we still so bloody naive!

As for protecting the Terns from the Foxes...some way has to found to create a separation of the two, that is the only sustainable solution.
But that takes real effort and commitment both in brainpower and funding rather than the lazy ultimately futile bang banging and codding themselves.

RosieJoe

archer22 wrote: »

Read my post...their population is SET by food supply and most importantly by available territory, Foxes with no territory DO NOT BREED...when there is available territory BREEDING INCREASES to fill the void!.

"Why can't people have some faith in the people on the ground who are making those decisions...they have the training, expertise and experience"

Yeah like people had "faith" in the Bankers and financial advisers with the training, expertise and experience on the ground before the economic disaster a few years ago

Are we still so bloody naive!

As for protecting the Terns from the Foxes...some way has to found to create a separation of the two, that is the only sustainable solution.
But that takes real effort and commitment both in brainpower and funding rather than the lazy ultimately futile bang banging and codding themselves.

Talking about the culling of 23 foxes, absolutely. The rest of your post is classic whataboutery.

FirstIn

The fact the BWI Tern blog doesn’t detail the shooting of foxes is significant.
My opinion is they know many of us would be appalled by this.
This thread is important in highlighting this slaughter.

They need to explore better fencing , (indeed their job advert details electric fencing). trap and release and scare tactics. Just shooting the foxes is not on. It’s a dark age solution.

Working class heroes

RosieJoe wrote: »

Talking about the culling of 23 foxes, absolutely. The rest of your post is classic whataboutery.

I’m sorry, with all due respect, did you just copy and paste a response I made to you previously?