The death knell of the Irish Language

Fan of Netflix · 29-08-2019 09:59AM

Well I've just looked up the Fianna Fail website and they have about 50 policy positions on there. I may be missing something but I see absolutely nothing about the Irish language. They have the website available to read in Irish but no actual policies on the language. I think that speaks volumes. Clearly I was mistaken to assume FF might do more for the language than FG.

29-08-2019 10:24AM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Once again. Every single piece of European legislation is translated into the 27 other languages of the member states. Probably set down in Braille too.

What’s your point?

the argument is that it shouldnt be

have a bit of honesty and belief in your case and make it

Dravokivich · 29-08-2019 10:28AM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Wondered about this earlier. You can probably determine the age of those so aggressively against it. From the genuinely sad era of Ireland being a nothing and a cultural malaise where the thinking was we were sh!t and nothing good happens here and a weird but real inferiority complex thanks to our former colonial masters being somehow still allowed to broadcast into our country via tv and again weirdly, and probably importantly sport.

I cannot fathom the aggression against Irish from some. It’s a bit bizarre

The problem is the agenda for the irish language is entirely pushed by guilt and then forced upon kids. If you want to converse in irish, go do so. You want to learn it, there is nothing to stop you. Why does it all have to be about pushing it onto the kids and then guilting them for not learning it?

Dravokivich · 29-08-2019 10:30AM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Once again. Every single piece of European legislation is translated into the 27 other languages of the member states. Probably set down in Braille too.

What’s your point?

That's because they live and work in those languages. We dont.

Stop moaning ffs · 29-08-2019 10:32AM

Dravokivich wrote: »

The problem is the agenda for the irish language is entirely pushed by guilt and then forced upon kids. If you want to converse in irish, go do so. You want to learn it, there is nothing to stop you. Why does it all have to be about pushing it onto the kids and then guilting them for not learning it?

Where do they guilt kids? That’s new.

Stop moaning ffs · 29-08-2019 10:34AM

Dravokivich wrote: »

That's because they live and work in those languages. We dont.

Tir gan teanga tir gan anam

A country with no language is a country without a soul.

I think that’s important and we have to keep it alive by all means.
I’m betting it’ll have a revival when the UI ref comes around and it’s existence challenged by our pals up north as a compromise but that all down the road.

Portsalon · 29-08-2019 10:39AM

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

I know a few Irish speakers and they hate Fine Gael, see them as neglecting the language. I think Conradh na Gaeilge and other lobby groups usually tell supporters to vote for anyone but Fine Gael.

Which may help to explain why, as an occasional Fine Gael voter I hate (most) Irish speakers!

Greyfox · 29-08-2019 10:57AM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

A country with no language is a country without a soul.

I think that’s important and we have to keep it alive by all means.

We have a language which is English and its a really good one. by all means.. does that mean using force is ok?

It's nice hearing the Irish language on the Luas but learning a language is a waste of time for most people in Ireland as for most irish people it will never have a practical use

Stop moaning ffs · 29-08-2019 11:01AM

Greyfox wrote: »

We have a language which is English and its a really good one. by all means.. does that mean using force is ok?

It's nice hearing the Irish language on the Luas but learning a language is a waste of time for most people in Ireland as for most irish people it will never have a practical use

I often use cúpla focail. It confuses some people and I find that funny

Art has no practical purpose either. Should we let art die and frown upon artists wanting to keep it alive? No. Like the language it’s an important part of who we are

The_Conductor · 29-08-2019 12:07PM

Deleted User wrote: »

dont worry about it. people will continue to fib to get the grants and the wording of the census willl continue to encourage the pretence that this language exists beyond a few hundred diehard hobbyists

I'm not a die hard hobbyist- I use Irish regularly, I wrote a letter to my daughter's new teacher 'as-Gaeilge' only yesterday. I don't see what the issue is. If you don't want to speak it- thats your prerogative- but it is Ireland, and it is part of our heritage, and it would be sad to see it decline through lack of use or improper teaching. I think we should be proud of our culture and heritage- if people disagree, thats their prerogative, I'm not going to fight with you over it.

IsosKramer · 29-08-2019 12:11PM

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

I think Fine Gael don't care about the Irish language one bit. Perhaps Fianna Fail might do something? They did bring in the Language Act in 2003.

All of us old enough to remember Fianna Fáil in government know that it can indeed "do something"
What's the Irish for 'bankrupting a country', 'disgracefully high unemployment' and 'brown envelopes' ?
As for the 2003 Language Act...give us a break.
While we were always grateful when FF took time out from its inherent skulduggery, do you honestly think that tippexing out the English language names of towns and villages (Dingle, Clargalway and Moycullen for instance ) achieved something?
Don't be ridiculous.

DyldeBrill · 29-08-2019 12:11PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

The problem is the agenda for the irish language is entirely pushed by guilt and then forced upon kids. If you want to converse in irish, go do so. You want to learn it, there is nothing to stop you. Why does it all have to be about pushing it onto the kids and then guilting them for not learning it?

Agree with you to a point. It has important historical significance especially when it comes to place names etc..

I'm a fluent Irisah speaker myself and it's hard to see a real way back. People have to want to speak it. Of course, initiatives help in spreading awareness but we're past that point. I don't see how we're guilting kids either, althought the teaching of language basically ruined the reputation of Irish.

But yes - it's upon the person to go about it and learn it themselves if they are passionate about learning.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 29-08-2019 12:28PM

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

It is a fair point you make. I have no real issue with "jobs for the Gaelgoirs" type legislation or initiatives even though I am not really an Irish speaker (just the cupla focail from school).

I'm not really too sure what can be done to improve the Gaeltacht. To be honest many rural areas and counties are struggling these days including my own. It really depends on the community themselves and the language groups etc. I know a few Irish speakers and they hate Fine Gael, see them as neglecting the language. I think Conradh na Gaeilge and other lobby groups usually tell supporters to vote for anyone but Fine Gael.

Now if I wanted to see a revivial the idea that a language act would just create "jobs for the Gaelgiors" would piss me off no end: are we trying to get people speaking the language or just pissing money into someone else's pockets?

Seeing as you brought up said act: what exactly did it do to improve the actually availability and promotion of the language?

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Tir gan teanga tir gan anam

A country with no language is a country without a soul.

I think that’s important and we have to keep it alive by all means.
I’m betting it’ll have a revival when the UI ref comes around and it’s existence challenged by our pals up north as a compromise but that all down the road.

Someone brought up that saying a while back and I still find it bull**** becuase it implies that a countries WITH soul automatically have it BECAUSE of the language.

Also, a lot of countries have very limited indiginous linguisitic abilities but plenty of soil form other cultural aspects. Case in point: Brazil.

FInally, Ireland has a language that gives it soul. English. We have a rich cutural history of literature that gives it soul, written in English.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 29-08-2019 12:36PM

The_Conductor wrote: »

I'm not a die hard hobbyist- I use Irish regularly, I wrote a letter to my daughter's new teacher 'as-Gaeilge' only yesterday. I don't see what the issue is. If you don't want to speak it- thats your prerogative- but it is Ireland, and it is part of our heritage, and it would be sad to see it decline through lack of use or improper teaching. I think we should be proud of our culture and heritage- if people disagree, thats their prerogative, I'm not going to fight with you over it.

Which is fine - but you use "our" a lot. It's not a part of my culture and I didn't ask for it to be part of my heritiage. I'm happy that you see it that way and find identity, but the problem is a lot of people simply don't.

It's simply not as important to everyone. The other problem (without wanting to bring up the compulsory chestnut) is that not everyone has the choice to not speak it.

Stop moaning ffs · 29-08-2019 12:38PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Now if I wanted to see a revivial the idea that a language act would just create "jobs for the Gaelgiors" would piss me off no end: are we trying to get people speaking the language or just pissing money into someone else's pockets?

Seeing as you brought up said act: what exactly did it do to improve the actually availability and promotion of the language?

Someone brought up that saying a while back and I still find it bull**** becuase it implies that a countries WITH soul automatically have it BECAUSE of the language.

Also, a lot of countries have very limited indiginous linguisitic abilities but plenty of soil form other cultural aspects. Case in point: Brazil.

FInally, Ireland has a language that gives it soul. English. We have a rich cutural history of literature that gives it soul, written in English.

Brazil are the colonizers in that instance. Whole different thing.

We’ve had something taken away from us in the form of the language. And the cultural colonialism that happened with the advent of tv and Ireland becoming effectively an English colony but in a cultural sense. See the premiership and crap tv they’ve flooded us with since forever.

You may not agree something has been ripped from us as a people I think there has been. Some may just feel it more than others maybe? We’re still not over the famine in many ways either

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 29-08-2019 12:43PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Brazil are the colonizers in that instance. Whole different thing.

Portugese. And the catholic church missions (and no, that's not a bash on the church before someone drags us down that road).

We’ve had something taken away from us in the form of the language. And the cultural colonialism that happened with the advent of tv and Ireland becoming effectively an English colony but in a cultural sense. See the premiership and crap tv they’ve flooded us with since forever.

You may not agree something has been ripped from us as a people I think there has been. Some may just feel it more than others maybe? We’re still not over the famine in many ways either

Doesn't reference my post.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 29-08-2019 12:45PM

The_Conductor wrote: »

If you don't want to speak it- thats your prerogative- but it is Ireland, and it is part of our heritage, and it would be sad to see it decline through lack of use or improper teaching.

The blunt reality is that it has already declined as a lived, spoken language. Its may be an official language, or a compulsory school subject, but it is rarely used outside the public sector or the education system.

In the last census, 70 percent of Irish people said that they can't speak or never speak the first official language of their country. Just 1.7 percent claim to speak it daily outside the education system.

How, then, is it part of "our" culture?

Stop moaning ffs · 29-08-2019 12:54PM

Schroedingers language. It’s alive of you use it or hear it. It’s dead if you don’t.

Seems to be it

29-08-2019 01:02PM

answering a range of points here:

its a very poorly judged step to tell people what "their" culture or "their" heritage is.

justify the financial and legislative pushing of irish in terms of actual value, or in terms of popular value, or in terms of your perceived value.

dont attempt to justify it by projecting the value the person you are arguing with "should" put on it.

conductor- why did you send a letter to your daughter's teacher as gaeilge? if it isnt covered by necessity, and isnt the most obvious and easiest method to communicate, id submit that yes thats hobbyism. and good luck to you!

the statement or notion that irish the language defines or dictates irish culture or identity is snobbish, exclusivist and offensive

Dravokivich · 29-08-2019 07:49PM

DyldeBrill wrote: »

Agree with you to a point. It has important historical significance especially when it comes to place names etc..

I'm a fluent Irisah speaker myself and it's hard to see a real way back. People have to want to speak it. Of course, initiatives help in spreading awareness but we're past that point. I don't see how we're guilting kids either, althought the teaching of language basically ruined the reputation of Irish.

But yes - it's upon the person to go about it and learn it themselves if they are passionate about learning.

Every initiative or discussion is about the kids needing to do all the work to learn it, becuase there are adults who grew up not knowing it, feeling ashamed and guilty that they dont know it.

Dravokivich · 29-08-2019 07:51PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I often use cúpla focail. It confuses some people and I find that funny
Art has no practical purpose either. Should we let art die and frown upon artists wanting to keep it alive? No. Like the language it’s an important part of who we are

The use of language in itself is an art, but it's not dependant on a unique language.

Upforthematch · 29-08-2019 07:55PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

answering a range of points here:

its a very poorly judged step to tell people what "their" culture or "their" heritage is.

justify the financial and legislative pushing of irish in terms of actual value, or in terms of popular value, or in terms of your perceived value.

the statement or notion that irish the language defines or dictates irish culture or identity is snobbish, exclusivist and offensive

They always say that attack is the best form of defence.

The notion that the irish language should be relegated from the national consciousness and school curriculum is actually the "snobbish, exclusivist and offensive" one.

How is the parity of esteem currently shown to English and Irish "exclusivist"?

When English is and has been the language of power here for many generations, how is highlighting the contribution of Irish to the national persona "snobbish"?

How come the vast majority of the 99% of native English speakers in Ireland are quite happy by the cúpla focal in their lives, not finding it one bit "offensive"?

Upforthematch · 29-08-2019 08:04PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

answering a range of points here:

its a very poorly judged step to tell people what "their" culture or "their" heritage is.

It is a very poorly judged to tell people what "their" identity is. Culture and heritage are about the collective. The two Irelands make up the culture and heritage of the peoples on this island. The linguistic traditions of both should be respected, no?

[Deleted User] wrote: »

justify the financial and legislative pushing of irish in terms of actual value, or in terms of popular value, or in terms of your perceived value

A matter of rights & justice doesn't need to be monetised to be of value, no?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 29-08-2019 09:51PM

Upforthematch wrote: »

It is a very poorly judged to tell people what "their" identity is. Culture and heritage are about the collective. The two Irelands make up the culture and heritage of the peoples on this island. The linguistic traditions of both should be respected, no?

A collective, but not THE collective.

In order to be a part of a culture you have to be a part of the ideas and values portrayed with in the collective that that culture attempts to portray, as opposed to merely sharing a birthplace.

Most people, as they grow discover and find their own cultures and collectives. I'd argue that these are far better judges of identity, as they have been sought out and joined by the individual themselves as opposed to being randomly attritbuted.

Imreoir2 · 29-08-2019 10:41PM

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

Well I've just looked up the Fianna Fail website and they have about 50 policy positions on there. I may be missing something but I see absolutely nothing about the Irish language. They have the website available to read in Irish but no actual policies on the language. I think that speaks volumes. Clearly I was mistaken to assume FF might do more for the language than FG.

Just checked, FF have a policy on the Gaeltacht on their website and their position on the Irish language is outlined there.

A founding objective of Fianna Fáil is promoting the Irish language as a living language of the people, while ensuring the rights of speakers are protected.

Imreoir2 · 29-08-2019 10:55PM

JupiterKid wrote: »

Look at Wales, spoken Welsh is in pretty rude health and Wales has been highly Anglicised for a lot longer than Ireland. We could learn lessons from Wales.

The lesson to be learned from Wales is that everything opponents of the Irish language movement don't like about the Irish language movement is actually what works and the only problem is that Irish speakers are not militant enough.

The Welsh language movement are vastly more militant and agressive when it comes to promoting their language and it seems to have worked for them.

Imreoir2 · 29-08-2019 11:00PM

Bronson Low Tremor wrote: »

But what has the Official Languages Act actually achieved over the past 16 years?

It's essentially a "jobs for the Gaelgoirs" piece of legislation. It has done little to actually preserve the language.

How many people do you know who have read all approx 270 pages of the Lisbon Treaty? Then ask yourself how many people have read the entire Lisbon Treaty in Irish. Is paying to translate the Lisbon Treaty for a handful of readers really doing anything to improve the state of the Irish language?

What has the Lisbon treaty got to do with the Official Languages Act? EU treaties are not covered by national legislation. God forbid that Irish speakers should have access to jobs through their own language or that they should have access to state services through their own language. Getting rid of those jobs and forcing everyone to speak English when interacting with the state would do wonders for the Irish language /s.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 29-08-2019 11:10PM

Imreoir2 wrote: »

The lesson to be learned from Wales is that everything opponents of the Irish language movement don't like about the Irish language movement is actually what works and the only problem is that Irish speakers are not militant enough.

Not sure that sentence actually says anything: if people who don't like the language hate something, then it must work...??

And this is what you've taken from the Welsh revival?

The Welsh language movement are vastly more militant and agressive when it comes to promoting their language and it seems to have worked for them.

Not militant enough...? What do you want to do - force people to learn it at gunpoint?

Imreoir2 · 29-08-2019 11:27PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Not sure that sentence actually says anything: if people who don't like the language hate something, then it must work...?? And this is what you've taken from the Welsh revival?

Not militant enough...? What do you want to do - force people to learn it at gunpoint?

Seriously, do some research on the Welsh language movement. If a county council in Ireland fails to provide an adequate service in Irish, there might be a few complaints, a tweet or two and perhaps a letter. In Wales they grafitti the council building, occupy the council offices and break the windows.

Result: in Ireland the council ignores the complaints and carries on as before, in Wales the council does not make that mistake again.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 30-08-2019 05:12AM

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Seriously, do some research on the Welsh language movement. If a county council in Ireland fails to provide an adequate service in Irish, there might be a few complaints, a tweet or two and perhaps a letter. In Wales they grafitti the council building, occupy the council offices and break the windows.

Result: in Ireland the council ignores the complaints and carries on as before, in Wales the council does not make that mistake again.

Because Google is not going to explain YOUR point or tell me what YOU think.

Nor will it tell me how graffiti increases interest in the language or the number of language speakers.

Again: the interest here merely in the status.of the language and not the actual language or its usage.

Militancy, as it is portrayed in your posts, will do nothing to revive the language.

The death knell of the Irish Language

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