The death knell of the Irish Language

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 25-08-2019 05:38PM

Imreoir2 wrote: »

We do have a rather strange obsession with being prepared to emigrate, even though it is something the vast majority of people will never do.

Do we need reminding that 10 percent of the young Irish population emigrated during the recent recession?

I think its a cultural holdover from the mid 20th century that is not really relevant to the reality of the modern Ireland.

Within the past decade alone, 300,000 people left Ireland in search of work. The country had serious recessions in the 1970s, 1980s, and late-2000s/early-2010s, accompanied by waves of emigration. Emigration has absolutely been part of the reality of modern Ireland -- and with another potential recession looming, will be part of the future as well.

steddyeddy · 25-08-2019 05:39PM

Bronson Low Tremor wrote: »

From your link: "Since the introduction of the Official Languages Act in 2003 and the recognition of Irish as an official working language in the European Union, employment prospects have improved for graduates with skills in the language."

In other words, more people can now get taxpayer-funded jobs doing things like translating official documents into Irish, so that they can sit and gather dust.

Complete waste of time and other people's money.

This "jobs for the Gaelgoirs" cottage industry should be dismantled rather than encouraged.

Pbear your previous incarnation was quite supportive of the Irish language. What happened since then?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 25-08-2019 05:47PM

Imreoir2 wrote: »

It nearly was in the 60s. Early on after the foundation of the state, you have the creation of "A" schools which were effictivly Gaelscoils. There were a few hundred of them around the state but by the forties the push to have schools teach through Irish was dropped and by the late 50's there were hardly any left. There were only a couple in Dublin and another few dotted around the place. The Gaelscoil movement didn't get going until the late 60s and was pushed from the bottom by parents and teachers from the start and still is.

But there was a couple of decades when education through Irish was almost non-existant in Ireland outside the Gaeltacht.

Fair enough. I'll take that as a yes then, the next time simeone says that dropping Irish is unconstitutional.

Personally, I believe both should be optional, neither should be compulsory after junior cert.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 25-08-2019 05:50PM

Fourier wrote: »

What do you mean exactly here? The process of replacement had begun and progressed throughout that period or that by 1800 Irish was the minority language?

It's difficult to pinpoint the exact moment when English became the majority language—there would have been an extensive period of bilingualism, when the same people spoke both langauges—but the process of replacement is generally understood to have accelerated through the latter 18th century. Irish nationalists have typically blamed the language shift on the national schools (introduced in 1831) or the Famine in the 1840s, but it's likely that Irish was already a minority language before these events.

Fan of Netflix · 25-08-2019 05:53PM

It's not a case of Irish vs French/Spanish/Italian/German. A proper education system should be able to teach 3 languages from primary school. Most other countries manage it so why can't we?

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 25-08-2019 05:55PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Pbear your previous incarnation was quite supportive of the Irish language. What happened since then?

Oh, I support people's right to learn and use the Irish language voluntarily. But I oppose state rules making it compulsory in schools. And why are we paying millions for official documents that are rarely read even in English to be translated into Irish? This is a flagrant waste of taxpayers' money that does nothing to promote the use of the language.

Imreoir2 · 25-08-2019 06:01PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Fair enough. I'll take that as a yes then, the next time simeone says that dropping Irish is unconstitutional.

Personally, I believe both should be optional, neither should be compulsory after junior cert.

Dropping Irish as a compulsory subject in schools? I can't say I have ever seen someone claim that. That is still different to the propisition which was making all schools Gaelscoils, Gaelscoils still teach English as a compulsory subject.

I don't think it would be unconstitutional to have all schools, or no schools as Gaelscoils, the constitution is silent as to which language is used in Education, though if the state were to ban the use of either official language in education that would probably be unconstitutional.

Fourier · 25-08-2019 06:02PM

Bronson Low Tremor wrote: »

It's difficult to pinpoint the exact moment when English became the majority language—there would have been an extensive period of bilingualism, when the same people spoke both langauges—but the process of replacement is generally understood to have accelerated through the latter 18th century. Irish nationalists have typically blamed the language shift on the national schools (introduced in 1831) or the Famine in the 1840s, but it's likely that Irish was already a minority language before these events.

I think the estimates around 1800 were 60%-45% so yes this would be correct. The geographical development as far as I've read is that English and Scottish settlers into Leinster and Ulster caused English speaking to spread from towns into their hinterlands and then further into the countryside. By the famine Irish was mostly to be found in the Western counties, but you'd get the odd townland here and there where the older generation or even middle aged people spoke Irish in the midlands.

riclad · 25-08-2019 06:07PM

In the era of tech ,science , do you think every student should study 3 languages .
Some people are not good at languages while they might be more interested in physics or maths .
I think learning a language is a bit like music ,
some people seem to have an innate talent for it .
Some people have no interest in language,
they may be interested in science, maths, tech, computing ,
or maybe just one language is enough .
Maybe the teaching of irish in schools outside the gaeltacht is mediocre
or not very inspiring .
Its probably easier to learn irish if your parents speak it at home
now and again .
We have limited amount of resources, to spend on education .
We have to put resources where it will benefit most of the pupils for modern life after they leave school .
i find it hard to think of anyone i know who spoke irish after they left school .
Some pupils may want to learn irish,german and french,
thats fine, but i would suggest they would be in the minority.
i,m not an education expert, but i think sex education could be a lot
better in irish schools ,in the era of tinder and online dating.
From what i read ,its fairly basic .
way behind other western countrys .

Junkyard Tom · 25-08-2019 08:09PM

Just watched Creedon's Irish Atlas there. Thank goodness the internet revolution came along because the richness of the language can be digitally fossilized for all future generations to access regardless of who's pulling the strings.

I've only really learned the value of having our own native language from trying to figure out why certain people have such a visceral hatred for it.

Stop moaning ffs · 25-08-2019 08:17PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Just watched Creedon's Irish Atlas there. Thank goodness the internet revolution came along because the richness of the language can be digitally fossilized for all future generations to access regardless of who's pulling the strings.

I've only really learned the value of having our own native language from trying to figure out why certain people have such a visceral hatred for it.

Wondered about this earlier. You can probably determine the age of those so aggressively against it. From the genuinely sad era of Ireland being a nothing and a cultural malaise where the thinking was we were sh!t and nothing good happens here and a weird but real inferiority complex thanks to our former colonial masters being somehow still allowed to broadcast into our country via tv and again weirdly, and probably importantly sport.

I cannot fathom the aggression against Irish from some. It’s a bit bizarre

Junkyard Tom · 25-08-2019 08:30PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

You can probably determine the age of those so aggressively against it.

I think it might be more to do with their politics than age.

Stop moaning ffs · 25-08-2019 08:40PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I think it might be more to do with their politics than age.

Really? I can only think of one poster who is rabidly anti Irish that posted here who has a pig ignorant poorly informed political agenda and appears at every mention of the word Irish to denegrate it and anyone supporting it.
Not really seeing a political aspect from any others. Happy to be corrected though.

Huntergonzo · 25-08-2019 08:40PM

No interest in the Irish language whatsoever, can never understand people's attachment to what essentially amounts to nothing more than sounds you can make with your mouth.

Be a lot more convenient if the whole world just spoke one language, at least we could all communicate with each other then, practicality over pride people!

Raconteuse · 25-08-2019 08:41PM

It's pretty boring to study at leaving cert. I used to like it and get on very well at it, until leaving cert. I also don't think it should be mandatory for leaving cert (but I don't think English and maths should be mandatory either).

So I understand people not being into it, but rage filled hate is just silly.

kowloon · 25-08-2019 08:43PM

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

My Leaving Cert Irish teacher used to insist on reading the 'popcheol' section in the Irish language magazine in class, and it was excruciating, referring to R.E.M. as 'rem' etc.
My favourite part of the Irish syllabus was stair teanga, which kind of supports your point.

Yeah, nothing made it seem more irrelevant and useless than trying to make it relevant to a culture that was already expressed through English. We have enough trouble seeming cool to kids in the language they speak every day, attempting it in Irish will never be a winner.

Stop moaning ffs · 25-08-2019 08:44PM

Huntergonzo wrote: »

No interest in the Irish language whatsoever, can never understand people's attachment to what essentially amounts to nothing more than sounds you can make with your mouth.

Be a lot more convenient if the whole world just spoke one language, at least we could all communicate with each other then, practicality over pride people!

So all languages and things like songs and singing aren’t your thing.

Oooooooookay so

Junkyard Tom · 25-08-2019 08:48PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Really? I can only think of one poster who is rabidly anti Irish that posted here who has a pig ignorant poorly informed political agenda and appears at every mention of the word Irish to denegrate it and anyone supporting it.
Not really seeing a political aspect from any others. Happy to be corrected though.

I'm speaking of a general sense not this particular thread even though a couple of the usual suspects are here. I do get that there is a general trauma-based dislike from school days - that's fine. I have that too for other stuff [I don't have any Irish] but there's a more visceral hatred of what the language represents.

There are those who, it seems, would like to wipe it from history and deny it ever existed such is their hate for the people who value it and those who see it as a valuable aspect of the Irish nation.

Imreoir2 · 25-08-2019 08:49PM

Huntergonzo wrote: »

No interest in the Irish language whatsoever, can never understand people's attachment to what essentially amounts to nothing more than sounds you can make with your mouth.

Be a lot more convenient if the whole world just spoke one language, at least we could all communicate with each other then, practicality over pride people!

That would be horrible, so much would be lost. People are not robots, diversity is one of the best things about life. I would hate it if everyone and everything was the same.

beggars_bush · 25-08-2019 08:52PM

I'm fluent in Irish
Never get the chance to use it in daily life

It's a pity

Huntergonzo · 25-08-2019 08:53PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

So all languages and things like songs and singing aren’t your thing.

Oooooooookay so

No, languages are convenient I said that and yes I like music, don't think music is the exact same thing as a converation but whatever you're having yourself.

But sitting down to speak a specific language just for the sake of it naaaaaaaah.

Do you honestly not think it would be a lot more convenient if the whole world spoke the same language so we could all communicate??

Stop moaning ffs · 25-08-2019 08:54PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I'm speaking of a general sense not this particular thread even though a couple of the usual suspects are here. I do get that there is a general trauma-based dislike from school days - that's fine. I have that too for other stuff [I don't have any Irish] but there's a more visceral hatred of what the language represents.

There are those who, it seems, would like to wipe it from history and deny it ever existed such is their hate for the people who value it and those who see it as a valuable aspect of the Irish nation.

No arguments there at all. The last ones you mentioned are the ones I referred to. What’s their problem. ‘Waste of tax payers money’ being the mantra. And a false one. They conveniently ignore countless other examples of vastly bigger wastes of money annually in our budget.

They never seem to be able to explain it. It’s almost a mystery but I put it down to a weird insecurity about the relationship they have to the country and their own background.

A cursory glance through the posting history speaks to that and confirms it too in all cases.

Huntergonzo · 25-08-2019 08:55PM

Imreoir2 wrote: »

That would be horrible, so much would be lost. People are not robots, diversity is one of the best things about life. I would hate it if everyone and everything was the same.

Absolutely, I 100% agree, diversity is great, if everything was the same life would be unliveable.

We should all speak the one language though, we would all still be different, but we'd have no issue with communication.

odyssey06 · 25-08-2019 08:55PM

Imreoir2 wrote: »

That would be horrible, so much would be lost. People are not robots, diversity is one of the best things about life. I would hate it if everyone and everything was the same.

How can you experience that diversity if you cant communicate and understand the different peoples?

Communication is a means to an end.
Britain is different to US and Australia is different to New Zealand. Normandy is not Provence.
Culture and societal diversity dont need a language.
There is so much more to it than that.

Imreoir2 · 25-08-2019 08:56PM

beggars_bush wrote: »

I'm fluent in Irish
Never get the chance to use it in daily life

It's a pity

Why? Unless you are sitting around waiting for someone to ask you to speak Irish to them, then there are plenty of ways to use Irish in everday life.

Imreoir2 · 25-08-2019 08:57PM

odyssey06 wrote: »

How can you experience that diversity if you cant communicate and understand the different peoples?

Communication is a means to an end.
Britain is different to US and Australia is different to New Zealand. Normandy is not Provence.
Culture and societal diversity dont need a language.
There is so much more to it than that.

Do you speak a second language fluently?

Stop moaning ffs · 25-08-2019 09:00PM

Huntergonzo wrote: »

No, languages are convenient I said that and yes I like music, don't think music is the exact same thing as a converation but whatever you're having yourself.

But sitting down to speak a specific language just for the sake of it naaaaaaaah.

Do you honestly not think it would be a lot more convenient if the whole world spoke the same language so we could all communicate??

It would be convenient if we were all white heterosexual males too according to some. That’s not how the world works.
Piss off with that will you? All the way off.

Huntergonzo · 25-08-2019 09:06PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

It would be convenient if we were all white heterosexual males too according to some. That’s not how the world works.
Piss off with that will you? All the way off.

Haha well that's lovely, thank you.

Now to your bizarre statement about white males (a group of people you don't like I take it). No it wouldn't be handy if we were all white males, there would be no reproduction then and hence no human race.

Could you not just have said you won't answer my question rather than going on a bizarre tangent?

IAMAMORON · 25-08-2019 09:14PM

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Haha well that's lovely, thank you.

Now to your bizarre statement about white males (a group of people you don't like I take it). No it wouldn't be handy if we were all white males, there would be no reproduction then and hence no human race.

Could you not just have said you won't answer my question rather than going on a bizarre tangent?

Go easy on the Chivas there Mr Thompson.

What is your point exactly?

Huntergonzo · 25-08-2019 09:19PM

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Go easy on the Chivas there Mr Thompson.

What is your point exactly?

I don't see the point in having all these languages, 1 would do nicely.

The death knell of the Irish Language

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