The death knell of the Irish Language

JupiterKid

I was on the Aran Islands for a couple of days this week and was speaking to several locals and island residents during my stay. There were a good number of native Gaelgoirs which was good to see, but most people on the island under the age of 50 spoke English to me and would only use Irish if I used a cupla focal myself. Many people who have moved to the islands over the past 25 years cannot speak Irish fluently.

Now I’m no ardent Irish language promoter, indeed Irish was my absolute worst subject in school, I have better French and German than Irish - but the demise of the use of daily Irish in the supposed “Gaeltacht” areas is very sad to see and the rage of decline is alarming.

If current trends continue, the use of daily Irish in all the designated Gaeltacht areas will be completely gone by the middle of this century.

Link to a thought provoking critique of government policy on the Irish language:
https://ansionnachfionn.com/2015/06/24/irish-is-not-dying-irish-is-being-killed/


What can be done? Should we just allow the use of Irish to die out? Can the decline be arrested and indeed reversed?

whisky_galore

Not again.

Of course it should be preserved. An invaluable part of our cultural heritage.

Filmer Paradise

I couldn't give a shiney sh1te about it really.:)

Atlantic Dawn

Grants have been cut, various outlandish state compliance targetting of the population on the islands has been done as if these people live on the mainland. There should be zero VAT on these islands, they should operate like Canary Islands.

Additionally having the places operate like a kind of Dublin Zoo environment where the people living there have to live like backward people within so many regulations they are living like animals in a zoo to entertain tourists doesn't help either.

Upforthematch

JupiterKid wrote: »

What can be done? Should we just allow the use of Irish to die out? Can the decline be arrested and indeed reversed?

People will speak what they want to speak. Those who are interested will speak the language.

What can you do? Be encouraging and supportive if someone you know wants to speak Irish.

Should 'we' allow it to die out? Coercion doesn't work. So 'we' should let be.

Can be decline be reversed? Why not? But the traditional 'gaeltachts' won't exist in their current form - digital gaeltachts are the way to go!

L1011

Making it compulsory in schools with no idea how to teach it other than by threat and boredom was the death knell.

paleoperson

It's all a bit of a scam I think, a sort of ponzi scheme.

Think about all the official government documents that need translation. Think about all the school books people have to write. Think of the extraordinary waste of TG4 and Radio na Gaeltachta. Look at a show like Ros na Run alone - all those jobs created and a small number of people qualified or competing for them. It's all their little privileged world. Think about how they need solicitors and gardai and judges and legislators with fluent Irish in case someone demands it. Any piece of government information or release has to be available in Irish. Any attempts to go against this are met with fierce, emotionally-laden resistance by the very people it's benefiting.

Could there be any more cozy a life to lead than an Irish teacher? You learn a language once and that's it, you're set for life. What a racquet.

Upforthematch

paleoperson wrote: »

It's all a bit of a scam I think, a sort of ponzi scheme.

Think about all the official government documents that need translation. Think about all the school books people have to write. Think of the extraordinary waste of TG4 and Radio na Gaeltachta. Look at a show like Ros na Run alone - all those jobs created and a small number of people qualified or competing for them. It's all their little privileged world. Think about how they need solicitors and gardai and judges and legislators with fluent Irish in case someone demands it. Any piece of government information or release has to be available in Irish. Any attempts to go against this are met with fierce, emotionally-laden resistance by the very people it's benefiting.

Could there be any more cozy a life to lead than an Irish teacher? You learn a language once and that's it, you're set for life. What a racquet.

TG4/RnaG are excellent and not an 'extraordinary waste'.

I don't benefit from the 'racquet' you describe and I support the services you list. We claim to be a bi-lingual state - there are costs associated with this.

paleoperson

Upforthematch wrote: »

TG4/RnaG are excellent and not an 'extraordinary waste'.

I don't benefit from the 'racquet' you describe and I support the services you list. We claim to be a bi-lingual state - there are costs associated with this.

I don't want to be in a bilingual state, I'd rather be in a monolingual state.

ILoveYourVibes

Its a language with fine values.

Such a shame if its lost.


People are counted differently to things. I think that says it all.

suicide_circus

Upforthematch wrote: »

We claim to be a bi-lingual state

who are we kidding?

Upforthematch

paleoperson wrote: »

I don't want to be in a bilingual state, I'd rather be in a monolingual state.

Well let your local Teachta Dála know that you want their job title changed!

dont worry about it. people will continue to fib to get the grants and the wording of the census willl continue to encourage the pretence that this language exists beyond a few hundred diehard hobbyists

Upforthematch

Deleted User wrote: »

dont worry about it. people will continue to fib to get the grants and the wording of the census willl continue to encourage the pretence that this language exists beyond a few hundred diehard hobbyists

Replace 'few hundred diehard hobbyists' with 'few thousand native speakers' and a few tens of thousands of diehard hobbyists' and you're more accurate.

suicide_circus wrote: »

who are we kidding?

You might say 'ourselves'

But then there is that cohort who do use the language. Why shouldn't they be respected?

And then there is a much larger cohort who like the flavour the Irish Language brings to their English speaking lives.

Just start calling the Taoiseach, the 'Prime Minister' in a general conversation and look at the reaction you will get!

This much larger group is the group that ensures that Irish will be supported - and isn't that a good thing!

Filmer Paradise

Upforthematch wrote: »

Replace 'few hundred diehard hobbyists' with 'few thousand native speakers' and a few tens of thousands of diehard hobbyists' and you're more accurate.



You might say 'ourselves'

But then there is that cohort who do use the language. Why shouldn't they be respected?

And then there is a much larger cohort who like the flavour the Irish Language brings to their English speaking lives.

Just start calling the Taoiseach, the 'Prime Minister' in a general conversation and look at the reaction you will get!

This much larger group is the group that ensures that Irish will be supported - and isn't that a good thing!

It is estimated that we the taxpayers pay 1 billion euros per year to teach it to a largely uninterested audiance.

Other programs add to this massive cost.

Does that make you feel good inside?

the_syco

JupiterKid wrote: »

If current trends continue, the use of daily Irish in all the designated Gaeltacht areas will be completely gone by the middle of this century.

It died a 100 years ago in the workhouses.

What is taught now is a bastardised version of it, and it's so badly taught, no-one wants to learn to speak it.

Compare how it's taught to teaching French or German.

BurnUp78

Not making it an exam subject would be a start. Christ I hated Irish in secondary. I can't remember disliking Irish in primary school though in fact I think I liked it.

Atlantic Dawn

the_syco wrote: »

What is taught now is a bastardised version of it, and it's so badly taught, no-one wants to learn to speak it.

Compare how it's taught to teaching French or German.

Exactly, there needs to be a complete dumping of all Irish curriculam and a fresh start, the language has been put in to schools by fooking idiots about 30 years behind modern times. Mahogany Gaspipe my arse. It's crazy, the country we live in and the language is given to people in complete sheite, you couldn't make it up. TG4 brought the language ahead 20 years the day it launched.

janfebmar

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

It is estimated that we the taxpayers pay 1 billion euros per year to teach it to a largely uninterested audiance.

Other programs add to this massive cost.

Does that make you feel good inside?

No.

L1011

the_syco wrote: »

It died a 100 years ago in the workhouses.

You may be suffering from the problem of thinking 100 years ago is still (early to mid) Victorian, rather than War of Independence era there.

Tammy!

Perhaps we should turn this thread as gaelige!!

My German teacher told me I was a natural at languages but I never put in the time in school for German or Irish...

One of my favorite Irish sayings that I do recall is ...

ar nós na gaoithe - like the wind...

It won't die out but it'll lose prominence. Anyone that speaks Irish speaks another language.

nkl12xtw5goz70

After English, the second most commonly used language in Ireland is Polish.

There's nothing revelatory in the OP's post. English replaced Irish as the majority language of Ireland in the late 18th century, and Irish has been inexorably declining ever since. It will eventually die out, just like thousands of other little-used minority languages.

There will always be a few hardcore fanatical Gaelgoirs who insist on their "right" to use the "national language" at every available opportunity -- but the number identifying themselves as daily speakers of Irish is only around 1 percent of the population. And I'd bet that even they speak English most of the time.

Woke Hogan

Bronson Low Tremor wrote: »

After English, the second most commonly used language in Ireland is Polish.

There's nothing revelatory in the OP's post. English replaced Irish as the majority language of Ireland in the late 18th century, and Irish has been inexorably declining ever since. It will eventually die out, just like thousands of other little-used minority languages.

There will always be a few hardcore fanatical Gaelgoirs who insist on their "right" to use the "national language" at every available opportunity -- but the number identifying themselves as daily speakers of Irish is only around 1 percent of the population. And I'd bet that even they speak English most of the time.

I heard most of them actually speak English amongst themselves when there's no one around.

nkl12xtw5goz70

Woke Hogan wrote: »

I heard most of them actually speak English amongst themselves when there's no one around.

Probably.

The Census way overstates the number of actual Irish speakers. First, the question doesn't assume any kind of facility or fluency with the language. You could classify yourself as a "daily Irish speaker" on the form if you spoke three words of Irish a day.

Second, people living in Gaeltacht areas know to classify themselves as daily Irish speakers to keep the grants coming into their districts. This is perfectly understandable, but it also creates an impression that Irish is far more widely used than it actually is.

Plenty of people living in the Gaeltacht don't have a word of Irish and don't need it. The language is useful to them only for bringing in tourists and money.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

The Irish language is dying out beacuse those charged with marketing and promoting it are for more interested in enforcing its status than actually promoting it or encouraging its usage.

That, plus they're completely inept and badly suited for the job.

whisky_galore

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Of course it should be preserved. An invaluable part of our cultural heritage.

For you and everyone else of this mind.

What are you doing to preserve it?

EmmetSpiceland

Bronson Low Tremor wrote: »

Probably.

The Census way overstates the number of actual Irish speakers. First, the question doesn't assume any kind of facility or fluency with the language. You could classify yourself as a "daily Irish speaker" on the form if you spoke three words of Irish a day.

Second, people living in Gaeltacht areas know to classify themselves as daily Irish speakers to keep the grants coming into their districts. This is perfectly understandable, but it also creates an impression that Irish is far more widely used than it actually is.

Plenty of people living in the Gaeltacht don't have a word of Irish and don't need it. The language is useful to them only for bringing in tourists and money.

A risible suggestion. Do you really believe “native” Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht regions are sitting around their kitchen tables gabbing away “as béarla” but then they suddenly switch to Irish as someone passes the house? Living in fear that the mean old state “Cigire” is going to pounce and cut off their big juicy grant money. Come on.

They speak Irish at home and when around family/friends. The only time they won’t is when they’re with someone who doesn’t even have the “cúpla focal”. To do otherwise would just be plain rude.

Sure the ones “out West” are a strange, dark, people but what you’re saying comes across as at best naive and at worst disingenuous.

Del2005

Bronson Low Tremor wrote: »

Probably.

The Census way overstates the number of actual Irish speakers. First, the question doesn't assume any kind of facility or fluency with the language. You could classify yourself as a "daily Irish speaker" on the form if you spoke three words of Irish a day.

Second, people living in Gaeltacht areas know to classify themselves as daily Irish speakers to keep the grants coming into their districts. This is perfectly understandable, but it also creates an impression that Irish is far more widely used than it actually is.

Plenty of people living in the Gaeltacht don't have a word of Irish and don't need it. The language is useful to them only for bringing in tourists and money.

Bit like so many people tick Catholic on the census. They don't go to mass and skip the communion as they booked the party early.


The Welsh language was revived by the Welsh people with little support. The Irish language is badly taught, Peig!, and after 12 years of being badly taught the vast majority of people leaving school struggle with it. Maybe if we banned it from school people might start to learn it.

Insect Overlord

Inaccurate thread title is inaccurate.

The traditional Gaeltacht areas along the west coast may be in decline, but that's not the death-knell for the language itself.

whisky_galore

whisky_galore wrote: »

For you and everyone else of this mind.

What are you doing to preserve it?

Admittedly, the manner in which Irish was taught at school was off-putting. A rote exercise in regurgitation. As the years have drifted by my attitude has softened towards our native tongue. I now practice it every day. Twice a week, convene over coffee with gaeilgeoirí to improve my conversational standard. I have encouraged a few others to do the same.

uch

paleoperson wrote: »

I don't want to be in a bilingual state, I'd rather be in a monolingual state.

And there in lies the problem, most nationalities aspire to speaking several languages, but the majority here seem to want to be like the Brits and make everyone else have to speak english rather than make an effort themselves

Andreas77

Drive to work. Pension. Bring the kiddies to the new Transformers movie. Die. Only thing that matters is exponential growth. Forget your language. Live in the shadow of larger cultures. Personally I wouldn't like it, but sounds from this thread that many of you would. A little more self respect and the Irish would be divine.

whisky_galore

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

A risible suggestion. Do you really believe “native” Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht regions are sitting around their kitchen tables gabbing away “as béarla” but then they suddenly switch to Irish as someone passes the house? Living in fear that the mean old state “Cigire” is going to pounce and cut off their big juicy grant money. Come on.

They speak Irish at home and when around family/friends. The only time they won’t is when they’re with someone who doesn’t even have the “cúpla focal”. To do otherwise would just be plain rude.

Sure the ones “out West” are a strange, dark, people but what you’re saying comes across as at best naive and at worst disingenuous.

Was in a certain Kerry Gaeltacht and a local assured me that hardly anyone bothered speaking it and the status of the area may have to be looked at by powers that be.

Airyfairy12

Its taught so badly in school, I dont know why its not taught the same way as English is taught to us or how ESL is taught.
When I was in school, our Irish classes consisted of reading aloud an irish book, translating the page, rhyming off an Irish poem or some Irish words, the teacher's would lose their minds if we got something wrong or didnt understand something eliminating all hope of us enjoying the subject or asking for help in which case we might have improved. They make kids hate the language and not want to learn it.
Homework consisted of learning how to spell a couple of Irish words that meant nothing to us and translating a poem or page from a story book.

Other countries can learn English fluently along side their first language as they learn it from when theyre kids, I find it incredible that the majority of Irish people cant speak Irish despite learning the language since the age of 4.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

uch wrote: »

And there in lies the problem, most nationalities aspire to speaking several languages, but the majority here seem to want to be like the Brits and make everyone else have to speak english rather than make an effort themselves

Not really a fair comparison. They learn the languages beacuse they need them to communicate. We don't need Irish to communicate.

Stop moaning ffs

janfebmar wrote: »

No.

Your anti everything Irish is showing again Jan. Again.

Loafing Oaf

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

They speak Irish at home and when around family/friends. The only time they won’t is when they’re with someone who doesn’t even have the “cúpla focal”.

That's in the hardcore areas. But they're a bit narrower than the areas officially designated as Gaeltachts...

janfebmar

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Your anti everything Irish is showing again Jan. Again.

I love many things Irish, stop moaning ffs. Irish was beaten in to me at school though, and too much taxpayers money is wasted on it now. If it is your hobby, fine.

Insect Overlord

Hobby
Bad teaching
Taxpayers' money
Peig
Beat into

Only missing a few clichés now for the full house in Anti-Irish Bingo.

Stop moaning ffs

janfebmar wrote: »

I love many things Irish, stop moaning ffs. Irish was beaten in to me at school though, and too much taxpayers money is wasted on it now. If it is your hobby, fine.

Oh so that catholic teacher did hit you? You denied it previously even though you said a catholic teacher beat you. Circles and roundabouts with you as usual. Do you remember any Irish?
Surely if it as beaten into you you’d be fluent no?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Oh so that catholic teacher did hit you? You denied it previously even though you said a catholic teacher beat you. Circles and roundabouts with you as usual. Do you remember any Irish?
Surely if it as beaten into you you’d be fluent no?

How would that situation arise (or are you being sarcastic?)

Was beaten into me to (or attempted, if we're going to split hairs) but I have no animosity for the actual language. It didn't carry out the bearing.

But the result is that I have no interest in it either, and never will.

Stop moaning ffs

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

How would that situation arise (or are you being sarcastic?)

Was beaten into me to (or attempted, if we're going to split hairs) but I have no animosity for itthe actual language. It didn't carry out the bearing.

But the result is that I have no interest in it either, and never will.

Thats understandable. It’s how it's taught is the problem. There’s consensus on that I reckon.
Im in love with your username by the way

Emmersonn

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

I couldn't give a shiney sh1te about it really.:)

Póg mo thón Poll Mucha thú

Stop moaning ffs

Know the way the United ireland thing is coming down the line?
One of the compromises is we’re going to have to drop Irish as the language of the state to appease the always aggrieved unionists.
I’ll bet my house everyone will be singing a different song then.
You’ll all be outraged and furious the bloody fake wanna be brits trying to take our language off us.
It’ll spark an Irish language revolution.
This is coming. Bet on it.

janfebmar

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Know the way the United ireland thing is coming down the line?
One of the compromises is we’re going to have to drop Irish as the language of the state..

Hang on a sec. A United Ireland is not coming down the line, we could not afford it and do not want the extremists from both sides anyway. And Irish is not the language of the state, you never see it in a newsagent or book shop or hear it spoken. Up the yard with ye, as they say.

Stop moaning ffs

janfebmar wrote: »

Hang on a sec. A United Ireland is not coming down the line, we could not afford it and do not want the extremists from both sides anyway. And Irish is not the language of the state, you never see it in a newsagent or book shop or hear it spoken. Up the yard with ye, as they say.

It’s the primary and official language of the state.
You’d know that if you lived here. Which is dubious given your history.
the UI is coming. Like it or not.
One of your other accounts said the conversation wouldn’t even Happen yet there’s endless polls and debates on it now. Thanks brexit.

tipptom

janfebmar wrote: »

Hang on a sec. A United Ireland is not coming down the line, we could not afford it and do not want the extremists from both sides anyway. And Irish is not the language of the state, you never see it in a newsagent or book shop or hear it spoken. Up the yard with ye, as they say.

I'm going to start a thread on is traditional Irish music dead for the craic just to see you jumping in,your like Sammy Wilson on steroids.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

One of the reasons I can’t take this debate seriously is it never has political traction outside the internet. To be clear the constitution will have to change if you don’t want to live in a bilingual state. So organise and get the required politicans onboard and then get an amendment proposed in the Dail, and then campaign to pass the referendum on the amendment.

I’m not a huge fan of Irish but for cultural reasons I’d keep it.

Stop moaning ffs

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

One of the reasons I can’t take this debate seriously is it never has political traction outside the internet. To be clear the constitution will have to change if you don’t want to live in a bilingual state. So organise and get the required politicans onboard and then get an amendment proposed in the Dail, and then campaign to pass the referendum on the amendment.

I’m not a huge fan of Irish but for cultural reasons I’d keep it.

One of the above accounts insists July 12 orange parades are a culture vital to society and demands they be kept yet aggressively and often bizarrely rails against the Irish language and Irish people in general whenever the word Irish is even posted on boards, they appear to rail against it us and all things we are.
I’ll leave you to figure out who that might be.