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Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

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    #5192
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,753 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Clegg wrote: »
    According to Gerry Thornley the Irish side hasn't done much actual rugby training over the last few months. It's mostly been heavy duty gym work. Of course, it makes sense to get yourself in the best possible condition for the World Cup, but right now we're a mile behind the curve when it comes to skills.

    Is this not exactly what happened in 2007?

    Surely we aren't stupid enough to make the same mistakes again?


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    #5193
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,753 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    99problems1 wrote: »
    Joe is hardly the type of coach to require much skill though. He's the Jose Mourinho of rugby.

    He's turned Robbie Henshaw and Bundee Aki, two players who were wicked exciting runners at Connacht and turned them into battering rams.

    Bundee has got a good career out of it, better than I thought for Ireland but Henshaw was seen as BODs heir and now he's just Jamie Roberts MKII.

    Henshaw is still young and will hopefully get better, but I'd take a peak Jamie Roberts over him every day of the week.


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    #5194
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    bilston wrote: »
    Is this not exactly what happened in 2007?

    Surely we aren't stupid enough to make the same mistakes again?

    No-one really noticed it, but last week, Gordon D'Arcy gave the first real insight into 2007 that I've seen, and it wasn't over-training:

    https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/gordon-d-arcy-glass-quarter-full-or-three-quarters-empty-either-way-i-m-worried-1.3992288


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    #5195
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 9,985 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Former Former wrote: »
    The stupid thing is, everyone played badly on Saturday.

    Conservative Joe's pets who are only there on reputation and because they have central contracts, they played badly. Boards.ie favourites, they played badly. Guys who've never really featured before, they played badly. Starters, subs, forwards, backs. Munster LIGINDS, Leinster tossers, Ulster, Connacht. Irish born and bred, project players desecrating the jersey, granny rulers. All rubbish.

    So I'm absolutely baffled by the idea that changing a few lads here and there would have made any difference. Whoever else you picked, I doubt the result would have been any different. Whatever is going wrong, it is not simply a personnel issue.

    Well, as I see it there are two things going on. A seemingly outdated style of play from Joe; along with players who aren't that good and out of form being picked.

    Perfect storm


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    #5196
    Dog Botherer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Dog Botherer


    Former Former wrote: »
    No-one really noticed it, but last week, Gordon D'Arcy gave the first real insight into 2007 that I've seen, and it wasn't over-training:

    https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/gordon-d-arcy-glass-quarter-full-or-three-quarters-empty-either-way-i-m-worried-1.3992288

    ROG and BOD discussed it a bit on Off The Ball a couple of weeks ago too, ROG spoke at length about the mentality of the squad in 07. It’s available as a podcast still, I’m sure.

    EDIT: Jerry Flannery touches on it towards the end of this week’s House Of Rugby too.


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    #5197
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Former Former wrote: »
    The stupid thing is, everyone played badly on Saturday.

    Conservative Joe's pets who are only there on reputation and because they have central contracts, they played badly. Boards.ie favourites, they played badly. Guys who've never really featured before, they played badly. Starters, subs, forwards, backs. Munster LIGINDS, Leinster tossers, Ulster, Connacht. Irish born and bred, project players desecrating the jersey, granny rulers. All rubbish.

    So I'm absolutely baffled by the idea that changing a few lads here and there would have made any difference. Whoever else you picked, I doubt the result would have been any different. Whatever is going wrong, it is not simply a personnel issue.

    It was a preseason game!!!!!!!!


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    #5198
    99problems1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 391 ✭✭99problems1


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    It was a preseason game!!!!!!!!

    It was a test, just like the game v New Zealand.


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    #5199
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,288 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    99problems1 wrote: »
    It was a test, just like the game v New Zealand.

    Now nobody believes that at all, they aren’t comparable at all


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    #5200
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    salmocab wrote: »
    Now nobody believes that at all, they aren’t comparable at all

    Losing this game by 12-15 points you can make the arguments for match practice etc.

    Losing by over 40 there’s a problem. They’ve played one game more than us.

    Sorry lads, but the excuses being made are baffling. Yes they get some leeway in terms of where they are in the schedule of games compared to England, but not 40 points worth.


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    #5201
    99problems1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 391 ✭✭99problems1


    salmocab wrote: »
    Now nobody believes that at all, they aren’t comparable at all

    Of course they are!

    1. There's ranking points at play.
    2. There's world cup squad places up for grabs.
    3. We have 2 more games left before we play a world cup, once every 4 years and the biggest tournament in a players lives.


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    #5202
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,288 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Losing this game by 12-15 points you can make the arguments for match practice etc.

    Losing by over 40 there’s a problem. They’ve played one game more than us.

    Sorry lads, but the excuses being made are baffling. Yes they get some leeway in terms of where they are in the schedule of games compared to England, but not 40 points worth.

    I just pointed out it wasn’t a real test match it was a pre season game, I made no excuse at all.


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    #5203
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,288 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    99problems1 wrote: »
    Of course they are!

    1. There's ranking points at play.
    2. There's world cup squad places up for grabs.
    3. We have 2 more games left before we play a world cup, once every 4 years and the biggest tournament in a players lives.

    None of those things change that it’s a warm up game.


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    #5204
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Losing this game by 12-15 points you can make the arguments for match practice etc.

    Losing by over 40 there’s a problem.

    Meh, once you have lost any momentum and are down 2 or 3 scores the heads drop. I don't think in the context of the weekend there is much difference between a 15 point defeat and a 40 point defeat.

    People are making excuses, don't get me wrong, but some of those excuses are valid and provide context.

    I'm not on board with the panic at the moment. Two more displays like the weekend and sure, that's extremely alarming and my expectations for Japan will plummet.

    But two good games against Wales and supporters will be less concerned. I still think we're going to struggle against the heavier forward packs like England and SA and I'm not sure there is much we can do about that, but we've a good team that will I hope switch it on just in time.

    Gatland appears to have done us a favour and is peaking a weaker team this weekend. I think we'll go full strength this week anyway and will see how things look before the final game at home.


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    #5205
    99problems1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 391 ✭✭99problems1


    salmocab wrote: »
    None of those things change that it’s a warm up game.

    And what was the match v New Zealand?


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    #5206
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    99problems1 wrote: »
    Of course they are!

    1. There's ranking points at play.
    2. There's world cup squad places up for grabs.
    3. We have 2 more games left before we play a world cup, once every 4 years and the biggest tournament in a players lives.

    This is spurious and has a whiff of trolling given the shade certain quarters like to throw at 'test friendlies'.

    World Cup warm up games serve a specific purpose in the rugby calendar. They aren't treated as full tests by coaches and often highly experimental combinations are put out to play.

    The team Wales appear likely to play this weekend will highlight this fact.


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    #5207
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,288 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    99problems1 wrote: »
    And what was the match v New Zealand?

    A November international.


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    #5208
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,239 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    99problems1 wrote: »
    It was a test, just like the game v New Zealand.

    You seem to be building up the loss to England as a test match. While equally panning the wins vs NZ, SA, Aus as a "test" match.
    99problems1 wrote: »
    I put as much weight in those "tests" [wins vs NZ, SA, Aus] as todays defeat. if he's getting credit for those then he needs to add record defeat in Twickenham there too.


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    #5209
    RobbieRuns
    Registered Users Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭RobbieRuns


    It was a test match !

    They did get test cap for playing that game. Warm up my a**e.

    Every time you get a cap it should be the same level of intensity, not a "warm up" game. You warm up in training and before a test match. It was England in Twickenham, 80k people in a stadium watching, millions on TV. If you can't motivate yourself to play in those games then you're in the wrong business.


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    #5210
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Losing this game by 12-15 points you can make the arguments for match practice etc.

    Losing by over 40 there’s a problem

    What on earth is this claim based on?


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    #5211
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,601 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    England lost 36-0 in the pool stages of the world cup once.

    They were arguably unlucky not to win the final.


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    #5212
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users Posts: 11,167 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Losing this game by 12-15 points you can make the arguments for match practice etc.

    Losing by over 40 there’s a problem. They’ve played one game more than us.

    Sorry lads, but the excuses being made are baffling. Yes they get some leeway in terms of where they are in the schedule of games compared to England, but not 40 points worth.

    England were able to rock up v Wales a few weeks ago and put in a decent performance and scored 33 points straight off the back of pre season. And it was against a decent Welsh XV.

    A similar score on saturday, 33-19, and that's expected. To be shipping 57 points, lineout not functioning, some big name players not performing (after a middling 6n) and woeful defence is a lot of areas to fix

    I don't buy the "nobody played well" narrative given how the first 20-25 min went. Some players put in decent performances but were let down by others going missing (POM, Stander), some not upto it (Kleyn in particular). No point picking Kleyn for his power if it's ineffective. Once England upped it we had no answers, again

    Tactically we looked clueless. The "not showing our hand" thing is nonsense too. England have shown exactly how they will play. Even a rudimentary gameplan complimented by a half decent lineout and the scoreline would have been more in line with the England v Wales game. But we were just shovelling the ball wide aimlessly. England just put 10 or 11 men in a line and we had no idea or how to get through, over or around them.

    If Scotland have any brain cells at all they will beat us. They also have two games and while they are nothing special they at least dug in at the weekend to grind it out.


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    #5213
    Tikki Wang Wang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 332 ✭✭Tikki Wang Wang


    salmocab wrote: »
    I just pointed out it wasn’t a real test match it was a pre season game, I made no excuse at all.

    I see the Joe-Bots are on the prowl.....


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    #5214
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    RobbieRuns wrote: »
    It was a test match !

    They did get test cap for playing that game. Warm up my a**e.

    Every time you get a cap it should be the same level of intensity, not a "warm up" game. You warm up in training and before a test match. It was England in Twickenham, 80k people in a stadium watching, millions on TV. If you can't motivate yourself to play in those games then you're in the wrong business.


    That's impossible


    If they played with the same level of intensity in a warm up game the risk of injury would be hugely increased


    You don't just turn up after weeks off training and are in the same condition as when you left at end of season. That's why players have preseason and preseason games. This is all monitored by the staff and they have a date in mind to have the players in peak condition. For the Irish players this is the Scotland game. Not some match against England which is a month out.


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    #5215
    RobbieRuns
    Registered Users Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭RobbieRuns


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    That's impossible


    If they played with the same level of intensity in a warm up game the risk of injury would be hugely increased


    You don't just turn up after weeks off training and are in the same condition as when you left at end of season. That's why players have preseason and preseason games. This is all monitored by the staff and they have a date in mind to have the players in peak condition. For the Irish players this is the Scotland game. Not some match against England which is a month out.


    Disagree, in fact I would say that by not playing at the same level of intensity as you suggest that you would have greater risk of injury. It was a test match, if it was a "warm up game" as you suggest, then they should not get international caps. It should be deemed an international friendly.


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    #5216
    DelBoy Trotter
    Registered Users Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭DelBoy Trotter


    RobbieRuns wrote: »
    Disagree, in fact I would say that by not playing at the same level of intensity as you suggest that you would have greater risk of injury.

    Agreed. When you are holding back and playing at 70%, you are more likely to get injured


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    #5217
    WeleaseWoderick
    Registered Users Posts: 1,441 ✭✭✭WeleaseWoderick


    The result and nature of the second half in particular is definitely worrying but I'd be holding off the panic until after the second Wales game.

    If we're not seeing things going the right direction at that stage, it might point to a bigger underlying issue.

    Nonsense though to suggest that the team should be in peak condition for the England game. They're professionals with a single goal at this point i.e. winning the World Cup. All training up to now will have been with that goal in mind and not towards putting in a full blooded win at all costs performance in Twickenham.


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    #5218
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,426 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    RobbieRuns wrote: »
    Disagree, in fact I would say that by not playing at the same level of intensity as you suggest that you would have greater risk of injury. It was a test match, if it was a "warm up game" as you suggest, then they should not get international caps. It should be deemed an international friendly.

    Perhaps it should be adjusted so that they do not get caps. I assume they have reasons, not least financial, for not doing so. Regardless, it is not by any stretch of the imagination a "proper" test match. It is not approached in the same manner - you do not spend a week in a training camp just before a match without tapering in normal scenarios. The players would not have been physically capable of playing to the same intensity as normal (though should have done a lot better than they did).


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    #5219
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,288 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Tikki Wang Wang wrote: »
    I see the Joe-Bots are on the prowl.....

    Joe bot because I said it was an pre season game? I also said it wasn’t an excuse. It was a pants performance but it’s a pre season match nothing more.


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    #5220
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    RobbieRuns wrote: »
    Disagree, in fact I would say that by not playing at the same level of intensity as you suggest that you would have greater risk of injury. It was a test match, if it was a "warm up game" as you suggest, then they should not get international caps. It should be deemed an international friendly.


    Sorry wrong word


    They can play with 100% intensity but they are no where near 100% fit.....


    I didn't see any players holding back in the tackle, they just seemed to be very leggy and meant they didn't get in position correctly and hence why the amount of missed tackle.....


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    #5221
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,634 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    "Shefwedfan wrote: »





    You don't just turn up after weeks off training and are in the same condition as when you left at end of season. That's why players have preseason and preseason games. This is all monitored by the staff and they have a date in mind to have the players in peak condition. For the Irish players this is the Scotland game. Not some match against England which is a month out.

    Nonsense. The circumstances were near identical for the opposition.


This discussion has been closed.
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