The death knell of the Irish Language

steddyeddy · 24-08-2019 10:43PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Bor sure if aimed it me, but just to clarify: I didn't make said comparison.

Nor did I say trying harder was the only difference. I said need was the biggest difference.

I'd say exposure is the biggest difference. There's a very well established link between exposure and language development.

Portsalon · 24-08-2019 10:50PM

paleoperson wrote: »

I don't want to be in a bilingual state, I'd rather be in a monolingual state.

I'd just like to be asked.

A referendum on the thing every generation or so would be ideal. I'd cheerfully go along with the majority view.

IAMAMORON · 24-08-2019 11:57PM

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Realistically after primary school in this country every child should have almost fluent Irish. Teachers or the curriculum are not fit for purpose.

It's not the teachers fault in fairness to them.

It is the languages lack of relevance, especially on the east coast.

The debate still needs to be had by those who would prefer to have it. A referendum is a cracking idea , but I doubt it is feasible under our current constitution. The fact remains that the language itself was plucked from the workings of the Gaelic league and used as a tool of expression of nationalism during the late 19th and early 20th century. Since independence it has since been used as a symbol of our identity.

The concept that Britain eroded our identity through the English language is falsely hammered down our throats by our new republic. It is a myth to say that 5 or 6 hundred years ago we were all sitting around crannogs yapping as Gaelige and playing iománaíocht, this is complete garbage. It is fairyland stuff.

The Irish language as we know it developed in isolated western, southern and northern parts of Ireland over thousands of years. It is similar to Scottish Gaelic as it was used along the same trade and fishing roots for thousands of years. It was a lot more common for people living in Falcarragh to travel to Rathlin or to Eastern Scotland than it would have been to get the rocky road to Dublin , particulary in the 5th, 6th or 7th century. That is how the language evolved and that is why no one on the east coast is speaking too much Welsh either, as a language Welsh evolved at a totally different epoch, it has more Saxon leanings.

This language of the Gaeltacht was homogenised by the intellectuals of the Gaelic league as part of an idealism of cultural nationalism which was occurring at the time. This was then adopted by the republican movement and it still exists today. As I recently referred to, the concept that the entire country was whispering Irish to each other for a thousand years is nonsense, you would not have been able to a buy a horse with it at a fair in Portlaoise or Enniscorthy for example, it simply was not used there.

It is my understanding that as a language it has never had an official capacity until it was introduced into the constitution in 1937? I stand to be corrected on this. I certainly have never come across any use of it in government prior to 1921?

swarlb · 25-08-2019 12:03AM

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Realistically after primary school in this country every child should have almost fluent Irish. Teachers or the curriculum are not fit for purpose.

Most Irish children are reasonably fluent in English BEFORE they start school, and learn it from non teachers (unless their parents were teachers)

The answer is in there somewhere....

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 25-08-2019 12:06AM

Portsalon wrote: »

I'd just like to be asked.

A referendum on the thing every generation or so would be ideal. I'd cheerfully go along with the majority view.

You guys opposed to Irish need to actually appear in public, not post anonymously on Internet forums.

Name one politician or party in your side. Not only would you not win the referendum you wouldn’t get it as you need the Dail to recommend the amendment. There’s no appitite for this.

Greyfox · 25-08-2019 12:18AM

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

You guys opposed to Irish need to actually appear in public, not post anonymously on Internet forums.

Those against Irish don't need to, it's an irrelevant language to most people in Ireland.

Damien360 · 25-08-2019 12:19AM

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Realistically after primary school in this country every child should have almost fluent Irish. Teachers or the curriculum are not fit for purpose.

It's the curriculum and teaching method. I have kids in secondary and I can honestly say, irish language teaching hasn't changed one bit. Peig Sayers might have disappeared but the current stuff is awful. Written by teachers, for the consumption of teachers only.

A whole nation that has had it drummed into us for our entire school life and very few of us can speak the language.

The regular polls asking the number of Irish language speakers make no sense. The fact you can ask how to go to the toilet in Irish is not an ability to speak it. Look at Nuacht on any night and so many interviews are a stuttering mess laced with English words for anyone outside the gaeltacht.

Far too much is spent learning to conjugate correctly. We do the same in French and German. Concentrate on spoken language, conversational language. If you want true absolutely correct Irish, then study it at third level. Forget written Irish for as long as possible. This is why visting the gaeltacht for students is so successful. Conversation not writing. How to get something in a shop. Everyday stuff.

I don't understand what prevents change in the Dept of education. What is the vested interest that stops anyone acting intelligently as to why so few of us speak Irish. Doing the same thing over and over for 50 years has not yielded any results.

Atlantic Dawn · 25-08-2019 12:21AM

I remember going to secondary school and taking German and French classes, the books were of a far higher standard and pretty much bang up to date with modern topics people could relate too, the Irish books were 10-20 years off.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 25-08-2019 12:25AM

IAMAMORON wrote: »

It's not the teachers fault in fairness to them.

It is the languages lack of relevance, especially on the east coast.

It’s as relevant there are any other non Gaeltacht area.

The debate still needs to be had by those who would prefer to have it. A referendum is a cracking idea , but I doubt it is feasible under our current constitution.

Of course it is. The very constitution that makes Irish the first official language has a mechanism to change that and every part of the constitution by a referendum. And we’ve done that about 30 times.

The fact remains that the language itself was plucked from the workings of the Gaelic league and used as a tool of expression of nationalism during the late 19th and early 20th century. Since independence it has since been used as a symbol of our identity.

The concept that Britain eroded our identity through the English language is falsely hammered down our throats by our new republic. It is a myth to say that 5 or 6 hundred years ago we were all sitting around crannogs yapping as Gaelige and playing iománaíocht, this is complete garbage. It is fairyland stuff.

Do you think people were speaking Klingon? Russian? Of course people spoke Irish.

The Irish language as we know it developed in isolated western, southern and northern parts of Ireland over thousands of years.

It was universal across Ireland, later only inside the English settled towns did people speak English, and even within them people could converse in Irish.

It is similar to Scottish Gaelic as it was used along the same trade and fishing roots for thousands of years. It was a lot more common for people living in Falcarragh to travel to Rathlin or to Eastern Scotland than it would have been to get the rocky road to Dublin , particulary in the 5th, 6th or 7th century. That is how the language evolved and that is why no one on the east coast is speaking too much Welsh either, as a language Welsh evolved at a totally different epoch, it has more Saxon leanings.

You seem perilously close here to saying welsh and Irish are influenced by English. Except for loan words that’s not the case. Irish is in fact indigenous to Ireland and welsh is to Wales (and prior to the Anglo Saxon invasions to most of Britain).

This language of the Gaeltacht was homogenised by the intellectuals of the Gaelic league as part of an idealism of cultural nationalism which was occurring at the time. This was then adopted by the republican movement and it still exists today.

All languages are homogenised when written down in print or standardised. Very little English spoken in England is actually standard English.

As I recently referred to, the concept that the entire country was whispering Irish to each other for a thousand years is nonsense, you would not have been able to a buy a horse with it at a fair in Portlaoise or Enniscorthy for example, it simply was not used there.

Of course it was. If those towns had English speakers because they were English settled towns that doesn’t mean that most of the outlying and surrounding countryside wasn’t speaking Irish.

Most of the population was rural farmers. Prior to the famine Irish was the native language of about 80% of the population. Traders in the towns were bilingual. The farmers were more likely monolingual.

It is my understanding that as a language it has never had an official capacity until it was introduced into the constitution in 1937? I stand to be corrected on this. I certainly have never come across any use of it in government prior to 1921?

Of course the British weren’t going to make Irish an official language and prior to 1921 it wasn’t going to be used in westminister or even local Irish parliaments, which were british local administrations.

This is half baked revisionism.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 25-08-2019 12:27AM

Greyfox wrote: »

Those against Irish don't need to, it's an irrelevant language to most people in Ireland.

If you are aggrieved by it’s existence as an official language, which is the discussion here, then you need a constitutional change. If the language is irrelevant then that should be easy. I expect to see you all on RTE news next week. Get together by DM.

kowloon · 25-08-2019 01:03AM

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I had the pleasure of nailing a babe from Ballincollig when I was in Greece some time ago. She was a bear in the sack and it was a truly enjoyable experience.

She had lovely energy.

Tháinig me.

I'd be interested to see what the effects of a united Ireland would have on the language as it would add some of the people most interested in it but also a large number of people violently against it. Would it lose its status as our official first language? Compulsory Irish in school would have to become optional.

L1011 · 25-08-2019 01:32AM

On the Dutch thing - Dutch kids have English language media that they *want* to consume pouring in on top of them; they have the highest cable TV takeup in the world and BBC/ITV/C4/Sky are the core offerings

There is absolutely nothing in Irish language offerings that your average kid actually wants to consume. Some awful local content and some extremely old translated content (South Park, Simpsons) does not attract consumption. High quality brand new content does for the Dutch

IAMAMORON · 25-08-2019 01:37AM

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Do you think people were speaking Klingon? Russian? Of course people spoke Irish.

It was universal across Ireland, later only inside the English settled towns did people speak English, and even within them people could converse in Irish.

You seem perilously close here to saying welsh and Irish are influenced by English. Except for loan words that’s not the case. Irish is in fact indigenous to Ireland and welsh is to Wales (and prior to the Anglo Saxon invasions to most of Britain).

All languages are homogenised when written down in print or standardised. Very little English spoken in England is actually standard English.

Of course it was. If those towns had English speakers because they were English settled towns that doesn’t mean that most of the outlying and surrounding countryside wasn’t speaking Irish.

Most of the population was rural farmers. Prior to the famine Irish was the native language of about 80% of the population. Traders in the towns were bilingual. The farmers were more likely monolingual.

Of course the British weren’t going to make Irish an official language and prior to 1921 it wasn’t going to be used in westminister or even local Irish parliaments, which were british local administrations.

This is half baked revisionism.

Where were people speaking Irish outside of the Gaeltacht? Where exactly?

Please name me these " English Towns " , which ones are they ? I am not being smart here, but name me 5 " English towns " in Ireland. Only five, but name them. Name them in the context of your argument.

If all the farmers were speaking Irish where are their poems, stories and novels that they wrote about their lives? Name me a few famous Gael scribes from 400 years ago, who wrote it all down before the evil Saxons came and burnt it all down in their big bonfire?

The famine happened in 1845. Are you telling me that everyone spoke Irish before that?

If that is the case then why did Daniel O'Connell address 100,000 people in the town of Ennis in English 25 years before the famine even started? Please explain that , especially given that 80% were farmers who only spoke Irish?

IAMAMORON · 25-08-2019 01:44AM

kowloon wrote: »

Tháinig me.

I'd be interested to see what the effects of a united Ireland would have on the language as it would add some of the people most interested in it but also a large number of people violently against it. Would it lose its status as our official first language? Compulsory Irish in school would have to become optional.

In fairness plenty of Irish people take GCSE's and A levels in Irish. I would imagine that any United Ireland would have to facilitate the option for unionists to not learn the language if they so wished. That is not unusual, anyone born outside of Ireland who has not had foundation Irish in national school is not obliged to sit it for the Junior or Leaving cert anyway, there is nothing knew there.

However speaking Irish should not be a compulsory part in anyones' identity. As I alluded to in my previous post the concept that we were all yapping away countrywide in Irish before the evil Brits came along and told everyone to shut up is pure garbage. It is a bigger crime that we are spoon fed this notion in schools. It just did not happen that way.

Dravokivich · 25-08-2019 03:55AM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

You avoided the question and reinforced your ignorance. Irish is the official language of the state.
Ignorance is forgivable. Distorting the truth isn’t.

I said the state works in English. Where is my ignorance?

Pinch Flat · 25-08-2019 04:03AM

An bhfuil cead agam dul go dtí an leithreas?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 25-08-2019 06:26AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'd say exposure is the biggest difference. There's a very well established link between exposure and language development.

Maybe, but if they don't need it and they don't like it, you can throw as much of it at them as you like - you're not going to get results.

Exposure on its own won't work.

whisky_galore · 25-08-2019 06:49AM

L1011 wrote: »

On the Dutch thing - Dutch kids have English language media that they *want* to consume pouring in on top of them; they have the highest cable TV takeup in the world and BBC/ITV/C4/Sky are the core offerings

There is absolutely nothing in Irish language offerings that your average kid actually wants to consume. Some awful local content and some extremely old translated content (South Park, Simpsons) does not attract consumption. High quality brand new content does for the Dutch

TG4: the Country n Irish and 1950s cowboy movie channel.
R na G: Diddly-i music and little else.

The occasional good documentary on T na G, thankfully with subs, I wouldn't bother otherwise. The rest you couldn't pay me to watch, esp. drama and the "comedy".

25-08-2019 08:04AM

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

I couldn't give a shiney sh1te about it really.:)

The people saying this today will be the same ones bemoaning the apathy in 50 years or whenever the language does die out. The Irish language is like Notre Dame cathedral, yes it serves no practica use in our daily lives but it is a link to our past and a cultural relic that should be preserved as much as possible.

In my utopia Irish would be used the way the scandi countries use their languages, and perfect English used as needed.

25-08-2019 08:05AM

Pinch Flat wrote: »

An bhfuil cead agam dul go dtí an leithreas?

Not without a 'más é do thoil é'.

Cá bhfuil do manners, amadán!

Filmer Paradise · 25-08-2019 09:29AM

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

I couldn't give a shiney sh1te about it really.:)

Deleted User wrote: »

The people saying this today will be the same ones bemoaning the apathy in 50 years or whenever the language does die out. The Irish language is like Notre Dame cathedral, yes it serves no practica use in our daily lives but it is a link to our past and a cultural relic that should be preserved as much as possible.

In my utopia Irish would be used the way the scandi countries use their languages, and perfect English used as needed.

Nah. Nothing will ever convince me to have any time or love for it.

It's a zero as far as I'm concerned.

If anybody else wants to learn it fair play.

Just as long as they do it in their own time & on their own coin.

tim3000 · 25-08-2019 09:44AM

The very fact that we are debating about the usefullness of Irish in English should tell people something.

It's lamentable that it is dying out but it is inherently useless to people beyond those with a genuine interest.

I think it should be made optional in school. If such important subjects such as science business and a foreign language can be optional for students the why not Irish? I have yet to hear a compelling argument for this beyond the tired one centered on our heritage.

If you make it optional the you will get a core of motivated students wanting to learn it who will likely then encourage their kids to do it and so on.

25-08-2019 09:55AM

tim3000 wrote: »

The very fact that we are debating about the usefullness of Irish in English should tell people something.

It's lamentable that it is dying out but it is inherently useless to people beyond those with a genuine interest.

I think it should be made optional in school. If such important subjects such as science business and a foreign language can be optional for students the why not Irish? I have yet to hear a compelling argument for this beyond the tired one centered on our heritage.

If you make it optional the you will get a core of motivated students wanting to learn it who will likely then encourage their kids to do it and so on.

Should we not also make English optional also?

Fourier · 25-08-2019 10:34AM

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Where were people speaking Irish outside of the Gaeltacht? Where exactly?

Please name me these " English Towns " , which ones are they ? I am not being smart here, but name me 5 " English towns " in Ireland. Only five, but name them. Name them in the context of your argument.

If all the farmers were speaking Irish where are their poems, stories and novels that they wrote about their lives? Name me a few famous Gael scribes from 400 years ago, who wrote it all down before the evil Saxons came and burnt it all down in their big bonfire?

The famine happened in 1845. Are you telling me that everyone spoke Irish before that?

If that is the case then why did Daniel O'Connell address 100,000 people in the town of Ennis in English 25 years before the famine even started? Please explain that , especially given that 80% were farmers who only spoke Irish?

To save Franz the effort. Irish was the majority language of the entire island until the 19th century.

At the end of the 18th century it was starting to decline so that by the famine it wasn't the language of the entire island. In 1801 >90% spoke Irish as we see from the census done at the time. By the famine it was less than this but we don't know the exact number but between 70% and 45% is what I've seen.

Why did O Connell address people in English? It's funny you picked this because the reason is he believed people should shift to English to be part of a modern society. He was speaking mainly to a younger bilingual generation and making a point to cast aside Irish. It was a rhetorical technique aimed at the fact that most spoke Irish at home.

As for poems etc we have reams of literary material from the professional poets, the Filid, who were a huge part of our political landscape for hundreds of years.

The idea that Irish developed on the coast in a few towns is just daft, what did it develop from?

tim3000 · 25-08-2019 10:40AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Should we not also make English optional also?

English isnt a foreign language. What sense would there be in making it optional?

steddyeddy · 25-08-2019 10:42AM

tim3000 wrote: »

The very fact that we are debating about the usefullness of Irish in English should tell people something.
.

Sorry but you don't mean that sentiment do you? Look over the sea and you'll find that a whole nation debated usefulness of being in the EU. All it tells me is people think they should get rid of things they find too complicated.

steddyeddy · 25-08-2019 10:42AM

tim3000 wrote: »

English isnt a foreign language. What sense would there be in making it optional?

By that account Irish isn't a foreign language so it shouldn't be optional.

tim3000 · 25-08-2019 10:56AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Sorry but you don't mean that sentiment do you? Look over the sea and you'll find that a whole nation debated usefulness of being in the EU. All it tells me is people think they should get rid of things they find too complicated.

I absolutely do mean it. Its nothing to do with complexity or lack of understanding, its to do with utility. Irish is not useful to vast majority of people in their day to day lives. It is not the language of science, business, finance or entertainment. It is not a useful language to communicate with hence why you and I are debating in English.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 25-08-2019 11:03AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

By that account Irish isn't a foreign language so it shouldn't be optional.

If someone can't speak it, then it's foreign to them.

In answer to Wojtek's question, though - for Leaving Cert, yes, absolutely.

Portsalon · 25-08-2019 11:11AM

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

You guys opposed to Irish need to actually appear in public, not post anonymously on Internet forums.

Name one politician or party in your side. Not only would you not win the referendum you wouldn’t get it as you need the Dail to recommend the amendment. There’s no appitite for this.

Evidently English is your second language and you struggle with comprehension!

My post expressed no hostility whatsoever towards the Irish language, but simply expressed a desire for the Irish people to be allowed to indicate their support or otherwise for the Constitutional position of the language through a referendum.

If, as you claim, there's no widespread support for amending the constitutional situation, then you have absolutely nothing to worry about.

The death knell of the Irish Language

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