All Ireland Senior Hurling (Liam Mccarthy Cup) 2019

BloodyBill · 21-08-2019 05:21PM

bruschi wrote: »

that quote is absolutely 100% incorrect. The rules very clearly state that the referee is to issue a card if he deems it to be deliberate and not accidental.

Again, the ones being compared to hogan are not really comparable at all. Hogan struck a player who had the ball in his hand across the head with a flailing arm. None of the other comparisons had anything similar.

Ronan Maher on Peter Casey was similar.

Joe_ Public · 21-08-2019 05:28PM

I would say the Ronan Maher one was borderline. He actually did play and win the ball in that challenge on Casey, but follow through took Casey out. Yes, could have been red, but more of a grey area in it than Hogans challenge imho.

adrian522 · 21-08-2019 05:36PM

bruschi wrote: »

that quote is absolutely 100% incorrect. The rules very clearly state that the referee is to issue a card if he deems it to be deliberate and not accidental.

Again, the ones being compared to hogan are not really comparable at all. Hogan struck a player who had the ball in his hand across the head with a flailing arm. None of the other comparisons had anything similar.

I don't know, I don't see a huge difference between the Hogan, Cooper and Maher incidents. There could not be any real arguments if a red card was shown in any of those cases. Same for Cillian Buckley in the semi final. Probably some more examples throughout the year as well.

No point in rehashing old ground but no doubt referees will be under more pressure now to issue more reds from next season.

Mantis Toboggan · 21-08-2019 05:51PM

I think when an elbow to the head isn't considered a red card it would be worrying times for the gaa.

bruschi · 21-08-2019 05:56PM

adrian522 wrote: »

I don't know, I don't see a huge difference between the Hogan, Cooper and Maher incidents. There could not be any real arguments if a red card was shown in any of those cases. Same for Cillian Buckley in the semi final. Probably some more examples throughout the year as well.

No point in rehashing old ground but no doubt referees will be under more pressure now to issue more reds from next season.

John Hanbury was sent off for Galway on a straight red for a high tackle, if I recall correctly. Tony Kelly in the league. There may have been others too that I dont remember off hand. Hogans was the clearest of any of those mentioned there. There was an emphasis on the head high tackle and it was enforced correctly in the final. Just because some think some may have been lucky previously, doesnt make any difference really to the incident in the final.

If refs are giving red cards for hitting a player with a flailing arm to the head on a mistimed shoulder, then I dont think anyone can really complain if that red card incident is given over and over.

Gentleman Off The Pitch · 21-08-2019 06:06PM

bruschi wrote: »

John Hanbury was sent off for Galway on a straight red for a high tackle, if I recall correctly. Tony Kelly in the league. There may have been others too that I dont remember off hand. Hogans was the clearest of any of those mentioned there. There was an emphasis on the head high tackle and it was enforced correctly in the final. Just because some think some may have been lucky previously, doesn't make any difference really to the incident in the final.

If refs are giving red cards for hitting a player with a flailing arm to the head on a mistimed shoulder, then I dont think anyone can really complain if that red card incident is given over and over.

The Cooper one was by far the most dangerous of them all but didn't as snugly fit the definition of a high tackle whereas Hanbury's did and it was harmless enough
The worst I can remember in recent times was Burke on Scanlon, how there wasn't more made of that at the time I don't know

The essence of the second half of the first paragraph appears to be that while the rules weren't applied correctly for most of the Championship they were for the final and that's it. I say that inconsistency is less than ideal and not fair on players really.

bruschi · 21-08-2019 06:18PM

Gentleman Off The Pitch wrote: »

The Cooper one was by far the most dangerous of them all but didn't as snugly fit the definition of a high tackle whereas Hanbury's did and it was harmless enough
The worst I can remember in recent times was Burke on Scanlon, how there wasn't more made of that at the time I don't know

The essence of the second half of the first paragraph appears to be that while the rules weren't applied correctly for most of the Championship they were for the final and that's it. I say that inconsistency is less than ideal and not fair on players really.

It's not fair that the rules are correctly applied? Whilst it may be inconsistent, it's not like they were denied something. I really don't think you can say something is unfair because it may have been let go previously but then the correct call is made. Hogan just didn't get away with it, that's all. He was correctly sent off.

Gentleman Off The Pitch · 21-08-2019 06:25PM

bruschi wrote: »

It's not fair that the rules are correctly applied? Whilst it may be inconsistent, it's not like they were denied something. I really don't think you can say something is unfair because it may have been let go previously but then the correct call is made. Hogan just didn't get away with it, that's all. He was correctly sent off.

I think you are fully aware that I am not claiming Hogan should have avoided red, my point is that the inconsistency is unfair. Was it unfair on Limerick that Buckley was not sent off? Could the fact that he was not sent off or Cooper was not sent off influence other players' play? Let's not pretend that players don't adjust their play to how the game or games are refereed over a period of time, irrespective of the rules, and lets not pretend that every passage of play doesn't involve multiple incidents that are not sanctioned as per the rules

tibruit · 21-08-2019 06:30PM

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

"I wouldn't be blaming James Owens" says richie, damn right you won't richie, no one to blame but yourself.

"I had to bend my elbow to hold a 36" hurley" say's richie :pac:

"my elbow doesn't connect with his face" say richie!! Look at the attached.

By not taking responsibility for his actions this is only going to run on until next year.

Take another look at your photo. It clearly shows that Richies elbow did not connect with Barretts face. You`re gas.

Edgware · 21-08-2019 06:46PM

C__MC wrote: »

I might add we need the hurling final back to September, minor back to 18 and separate weekends for semi

Tradition is hard bet

Correct. There just seemed to be a fierce hurry to get hurling out of the way. Games every week in the provincial championship and then 2 semi finals in 24 hours.

Treble double · 21-08-2019 06:51PM

Gentleman Off The Pitch wrote: »

I think you are fully aware that I am not claiming Hogan should have avoided red, my point is that the inconsistency is unfair. Was it unfair on Limerick that Buckley was not sent off? Could the fact that he was not sent off or Cooper was not sent off influence other players' play? Let's not pretend that players don't adjust their play to how the game or games are refereed over a period of time, irrespective of the rules, and lets not pretend that every passage of play doesn't involve multiple incidents that are not sanctioned as per the rules

Spot on, the problem arises because the rules aren't being enforced as per the rulebook across the board. Reffs are encouraged to let the game flow, there is inconsistency from game to game and every good player will push the boundaries to see what they can get away with. By the rule book hogan's challenge was a red. It causes controversy because it is not a red consistently across the board.
The solution is to get referees to enforce every rule in the game to achieve consistent refereeing and leave players in no doubt where they stand, the problem is what kind of a spectacle will that leave the punter with.

Joe_ Public · 21-08-2019 07:04PM

Consistency is a massive problem, always has been. Refs "letting the game flow" will always come in for praise from some quarters, particularly from let us say the more old school hurling fans, but the game has gone far too serious and professional now to be officiated in such a loosely subjective manner.

There is a wider refereeing issue, not enough experienced, top class officials and a pool that is dwindling all the while. If the GAA wants to go down that route of getting tough on bad/dangerous tackles and ensuring consistency, then it has to invest and give referees better training and set high standards. As it is, listening to people talk about two referees is just a non starter: you just end up with one referee letting things go in one half, the other blowing everything the other. Or, alternatively, a challenge on half way line and one ref throwing his arm one direction, the other ref indicating the opposite. Recipe for chaos.

There are precedents from soccer and rugby here. 10 years ago there was frequent outcry in soccer for certain tackles that were getting red. Now any semblance of a two footed lunge and everybody knows: straight red. Rugby is getting to grips with the high tackles, causes controversty for a while until folk get used to it and arguments die down. But zero tolerance is the bottom line and the GAA has to ensure it's ready for it. As things stand, not sure that's the case.

Field east · 21-08-2019 07:21PM

bruschi wrote: »

John Hanbury was sent off for Galway on a straight red for a high tackle, if I recall correctly. Tony Kelly in the league. There may have been others too that I dont remember off hand. Hogans was the clearest of any of those mentioned there. There was an emphasis on the head high tackle and it was enforced correctly in the final. Just because some think some may have been lucky previously, doesnt make any difference really to the incident in the final.

If refs are giving red cards for hitting a player with a flailing arm to the head on a mistimed shoulder, then I dont think anyone can really complain if that red card incident is given over and over.

tibruit wrote: »

Take another look at your photo. It clearly shows that Richies elbow did not connect with Barretts face. You`re gas.

Does it matter whether it was Hogan’s flailing arm or his elbow made contact with Barrett’s Helmet and by extension his head. The result would have been the same either way . Barrett’s was jerked back with the contact - like as if he got a right solid punch from a boxer. So he was solidly hit by something. It is impossible to be 100% precicse as to what exact part of Hogan’s body made contact with Barrett’s helmet one has an ability to play the clip frame by frame. Having looked at the various clips in greater detail I am now of the opinion that the part that Hogan made contact with that part from the shoulder and half ways down to the elbow - so I hope that this clarification- veering away from 100% elbow will bring some solace to you. And somewhat mitigate the foul IN YOUR EYES

99problems1 · 21-08-2019 07:24PM

One thing that is obvious and easy to improve is have proper referees doing the line. The lads doing the line, act like just that, like they're just doing the line. The lads on the line should have more input on decisions.

Let's see them raise their flag for a foul like soccer assistants do.

And another thing, have proper umpires. Not auld lads who can barely get the position of the 65 right....

Where do they get the umpires anyways? They're useless in most cases. They should be mic'd up to the ref too to indicate fouling off the ball.

99problems1 · 21-08-2019 07:31PM

It looks really bad for Hogan to come out so strongly and claim it wasn't deserved.

Could have got a lot of sympathy if he had came out and said "it was a genuine attempt, but at the same time I did catch him and gave the ref a decision to make."

Instead he harps on about it not being irish dancing and you can't have your arms down by your side making a shoulder. Well show me a player making a shoulder where his arm is NOT infront of his body. If Hogan was making a shoulder, his right arm would be across his body and his right hand would be around his left pec.

Lefty Bicek · 21-08-2019 07:37PM

99problems1 wrote: »

It looks really bad for Hogan to come out so strongly and claim it wasn't deserved.

Could have got a lot of sympathy if he had came out and said "it was a genuine attempt, but at the same time I did catch him and gave the ref a decision to make."

Instead he harps on about it not being irish dancing and you can't have your arms down by your side making a shoulder. Well show me a player making a shoulder where his arm is NOT infront of his body. If Hogan was making a shoulder, his right arm would be across his body and his right hand would be around his left pec.

In your opinion.

Why should he say things for your approval though ?

Do you think he places a great store in getting your 'sympathy' ?

I hope not anyway.

tibruit · 21-08-2019 07:38PM

Field east wrote: »

Does it matter whether it was Hogan’s flailing arm or his elbow made contact with Barrett’s Helmet and by extension his head. The result would have been the same either way . Barrett’s was jerked back with the contact - like as if he got a right solid punch from a boxer. So he was solidly hit by something. It is impossible to be 100% precicse as to what exact part of Hogan’s body made contact with Barrett’s helmet one has an ability to play the clip frame by frame. Having looked at the various clips in greater detail I am now of the opinion that the part that Hogan made contact with that part from the shoulder and half ways down to the elbow - so I hope that this clarification- veering away from 100% elbow will bring some solace to you. And somewhat mitigate the foul IN YOUR EYES

If Hogan had elbowed Barrett in the jaw in the way some of you like indicate, Barrett wouldn`t have got up. So yeah, it does matter and it does mitigate the foul. Barrett wasn`t injured at all and had an excellent second half.

99problems1 · 21-08-2019 07:48PM

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

In your opinion.

Why should he say things for your approval though ?

Do you think he places a great store in getting your 'sympathy' ?

I hope not anyway.

Well he seemed to care about peoples opinions enough to go on national radio and plead his innocence.

Lefty Bicek · 21-08-2019 07:56PM

99problems1 wrote: »

Well he seemed to care about peoples opinions enough to go on national radio and plead his innocence.

I'm sure he has met enough knuckledraggers over the years to know that you will never change some people's minds. Especially if they are predisposed to paint you in a bad light, and take pleasure out of doing it, the losers that they are.

Yet he gave his point of view. And rightly so.

I still think he doesn't give a rat's about 'sympathy' from you or anyone else.

Lefty Bicek · 21-08-2019 08:05PM

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

https://twitter.com/BrianCarroll13/status/1163865776958377985?s=19

Never knew Hopper McGrath's real name.

the_pen_turner · 21-08-2019 08:38PM

Snow Garden wrote: »

Stop it's beyond embarrassment at this stage. I thought Hogan would have more cop on.

are you talking to ritchy hogan or 99

Realt Dearg Sec · 21-08-2019 08:39PM

Snow Garden wrote: »

Stop it's beyond embarrassment at this stage. I thought Hogan would have more cop on.

Have you actually listened to the interview?

Sir Guy who smiles · 21-08-2019 09:47PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

.....listening to people talk about two referees is just a non starter: you just end up with one referee letting things go in one half, the other blowing everything the other.....

James McGrath used to do that on his own when Clare played Cork.

Field east · 22-08-2019 08:24AM

tibruit wrote: »

If Hogan had elbowed Barrett in the jaw in the way some of you like indicate, Barrett wouldn`t have got up. So yeah, it does matter and it does mitigate the foul. Barrett wasn`t injured at all and had an excellent second half.

This is’nt even splitting hairs - it is splitting hair molecules. Please do’nt go as far as splitting protons in hair molecules.
The rule refers only about contact with the head by any part of the body by another player or his Hurley is a red card. It says absolutely nothing about the player in receipt of the contact to the head. Even if Barrett stayed standing and bust into singing a verse of ‘ The Rose Of Mooncoin ‘ it would not have changed anything re the decision made

marvin80 · 22-08-2019 08:31AM

Hahaha it's embarrassing at this stage:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/red-card-saga-to-rumble-on-as-kilkenny-set-to-appeal-richie-hogans-allireland-final-dismissal-38424981.html

Lefty Bicek · 22-08-2019 08:42AM

marvin80 wrote: »

Hahaha it's embarrassing at this stage:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/red-card-saga-to-rumble-on-as-kilkenny-set-to-appeal-richie-hogans-allireland-final-dismissal-38424981.html

Don't worry about it. It isn't your problem.

Hahaha etc etc

threeball · 22-08-2019 09:16AM

I've never heard such whinging after the loss of an All Ireland in my life. The fact that the red card was so blatant and the result was such a hammering it just beggars belief. Plenty of teams down through the years with genuine grievances have sucked it up and got on with it. The bleating over the last few days has been pathetic. I expected more from Kilkenny.

Chalk McHugh · 22-08-2019 09:21AM

If this appeal is true it certainly will drag it on for a good while. I didn't expect that but i suppose with the amount of anger and complaining and refusal to accept the red card by so many Kilkenny folk and ex players/pundits it shouldn't really come as a surprise.

Mantis Toboggan · 22-08-2019 09:36AM

marvin80 wrote: »

Hahaha it's embarrassing at this stage:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/red-card-saga-to-rumble-on-as-kilkenny-set-to-appeal-richie-hogans-allireland-final-dismissal-38424981.html

They'll be looking for a replay next :pac::pac:

Bonniedog · 22-08-2019 09:45AM

marvin80 wrote: »

Hahaha it's embarrassing at this stage:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/red-card-saga-to-rumble-on-as-kilkenny-set-to-appeal-richie-hogans-allireland-final-dismissal-38424981.html

That's just bizarre now.

Can't get past the paywall, so haven't read the article, but going by reports I fail to see any practical benefit to this.

I don't think it affects him being able to tog out for Danesfort does it? Even if it did, they should let it drop.

The old adage about digging holes comes to mind.

(He will miss first championship game in 2020. I doubt that this is reason for the appeal. Getting embarrassing now.)

All Ireland Senior Hurling (Liam Mccarthy Cup) 2019

Comments