All Ireland Senior Hurling (Liam Mccarthy Cup) 2019

Field east · 20-08-2019 11:36PM

cson wrote: »

This contradictory nonsense is very prevalent in the narrative, even Duignan was saying it today. It simply can't be harsh & at the same time the right call. They're mutually exclusive concepts. The correct call isn't harsh, its simply correct.

Equally you can't hang James Owens for making the correct decision on the basis of the failings of his peers in prior matches.

There's not been near enough introspection from Shefflin etc; the spotlight should be on Richie Hogan for making a challenge that puts the referee in a position to send him off.

It’s disappointing how much this Hogan/ Barrett incident has dominated over everything else that happened when you consider that
- it was a very sporting and ‘clean ‘ game.
- the ref did a good job( including getting the one red card right) there was an odd ‘hiccup’ but what ref gets everything right
- the strategies or lack thereof were top drawer stuff

smelly sock · 20-08-2019 11:37PM

Does anyone feel that if Richie Hogan had of stayed on the result would have been different? Tipp would have still won comfortably.

awaywithyou · 20-08-2019 11:44PM

Chalk McHugh wrote: »

I think they will. Dublin to miss out.

Will KK be playing Dublin in Parnell Park next yr? Dublin will beat em... Galway will beat em in Salthill and then it’s Wexford in Nowlan Park... who should be good enuf.. TJ will be a year older.... doesn’t seem to b anyone coming along to take his place as a leader in KK attack like TJ himself did when Shefflin moved off the stage.... Cody to retire next year...

All the talk bout red card just papered over how poor I think this KK team is hurling wise... obviously they lack for nothing in honesty, hard work and massive commitment.... but they just don’t have the hurlers or the strong forceful characters/personalities of Shefflins team... how many of that KK team would get into either the Tipp or Limk teams at the moment.... TJ and Eoin Murphy and after that I’m struggling...

smelly sock · 20-08-2019 11:49PM

awaywithyou wrote: »

Will KK be playing Dublin in Parnell Park next yr? Dublin will beat em... Galway will beat em in Salthill and then it’s Wexford in Nowlan Park... who should be good enuf.. TJ will be a year older.... doesn’t seem to b anyone coming along to take his place as a leader in KK attack like TJ himself did when Shefflin moved off the stage.... Cody to retire next year...

All the talk bout red card just papered over how poor I think this KK team is hurling wise... obviously they lack for nothing in honesty, hard work and massive commitment.... but they just don’t have the hurlers or the strong forceful characters/personalities of Shefflins team... how many of that KK team would get into either the Tipp or Limk teams at the moment.... TJ and Eoin Murphy and after that I’m struggling...

Id tend to agree. Wexford will be kicking themselves that they didnt beat Tipp. 5 points up with 5 to go. They should have.

I think theyd have had to much for this KK team today too.

Chalk McHugh · 20-08-2019 11:55PM

smelly sock wrote: »

Id tend to agree. Wexford will be kicking themselves that they didnt beat Tipp. 5 points up with 5 to go. They should have.

I think theyd have had to much for this KK team today too.

Yes, Wexford will feel they really left it behind them. Tipp hurled out of their skin for the last 25 minutes though and Wexford couldn't arrest the slide. Davy looked shell-shocked so he did and thankfully he was pretty much lost for words and hasn't been heard of since.

I'm not sure Wexford would have beaten Kilkenny twice in such a short time. My money would have been on Kilkenny to exact a bit of revenge but we'll never know.

smelly sock · 20-08-2019 11:59PM

Chalk McHugh wrote: »

Yes, Wexford will feel they really left it behind them. Tipp hurled out of their skin for the last 25 minutes though and Wexford couldn't arrest the slide. Davy looked shell-shocked so he did and thankfully he was pretty much lost for words and hasn't been heard of since.

I'm not sure Wexford would have beaten Kilkenny twice in such a short time. My money would have been on Kilkenny to exact a bit of revenge but we'll never know.

Its wide open again next year again
Wexford, Limerick, KK, Cork, Galway and Tipp will all be there or there abouts. Waterford and i feel Clare have a lot more to offer too.

As for Davy, well he's Davy. His record speaks for itself and the game would be a lot poorer without him.

Powerhouse · 21-08-2019 06:05AM

awaywithyou wrote: »

Will KK be playing Dublin in Parnell Park next yr? Dublin will beat em... Galway will beat em in Salthill and then it’s Wexford in Nowlan Park... who should be good enuf.. TJ will be a year older.... doesn’t seem to b anyone coming along to take his place as a leader in KK attack like TJ himself did when Shefflin moved off the stage.... Cody to retire next year...

All the talk bout red card just papered over how poor I think this KK team is hurling wise... obviously they lack for nothing in honesty, hard work and massive commitment.... but they just don’t have the hurlers or the strong forceful characters/personalities of Shefflins team... how many of that KK team would get into either the Tipp or Limk teams at the moment.... TJ and Eoin Murphy and after that I’m struggling...

I would tend to agree with this.

Their new players have looked ordinary enough allowing for the fact that many are young and they are hugely dependent on a few players who are heading for the other end of their careers while under-age success is elusive.

One of their number claimed the other day on the Kilkenny thread that they would beat Limerick by more next year. They got to the All Ireland on pure grit rather than any great creativity. That will take them only so far as Sunday showed. Noel McGrath was supposed to be suffocated but he ended up with Man of the Match. They just could not do it.

This was a team which won just two of its five matches in Leinster. A game but very ordinary team with little enough tactical nous on the sideline to find ways to compensate for mediocre ability.

I think Brian Cody is heading for a long ending to his managerial career (wise guys will tell you "Cody is going nowhere" so we must assume that) without going close to reprising the highs of earlier times. They'll be five years without a title going into next year's championship and there's a real chance that'll stretch to double that at least.

Powerhouse · 21-08-2019 06:15AM

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

You're absolutely wrong.

If the penalty for overcarrying the ball is death, and the sentence is carried out then that is the correct call. According to your logic.

It's a bit harsh, though.

You ought not to make emphatic statements that a more finely-tuned mind would baulk at.

QED

:P

In this example it doesn't mean the call is harsh. It means that the penalty is stupidly disproportionate. But the call is still correct.

On the Hogan incident the call was correct. As the other poster cleverly and persuasively put it, harshness doesn't come into it. He went into the tackle with his shoulder and when he realised he was going to miss he compensated by sticking and elbow in the opponent's head. The action could hardly have been more deliberate even if it was split-second reaction.

Joe Daly · 21-08-2019 07:05AM

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

It can, but my preference is otherwise. PM sent.

Could you explain this please.

bruschi · 21-08-2019 09:34AM

Joe Daly wrote: »

Could you explain this please.

Lefty thought I was enquiring about the incident you referenced and sent me a message.

I was asking however about your comment about some wexford person in the Sunday papers. If you could respond.

SAMTALK · 21-08-2019 09:43AM

As a neutral I think KK need to leave it be and let Tipp get on with the celebrations.

All of the ex players commenting on how it wasnt a red card. Cody commenting on how long it took the ref to make up his mind and now Hogan giving interviews.

Give it a rest and take it on the chin. I would have liked KK to win on Sunday but I am slowly turning against them with all the complaining about what was obviously a red card.

KK always sailed close to the wind with some of their tackles but it didn't go their way on Sunday.

beggars_bush · 21-08-2019 09:47AM

Difference is, Tipp have great forwards

Kilkenny have been relying on Fennelly for goals and frees from TJ

Powerhouse · 21-08-2019 11:33AM

Gentleman Off The Pitch wrote: »

Look you're obviously enjoying putting the knife into Kilkenny over the last few days, but for a man tut tutting about Kilkenny bitterness just a few posts back your own is beginning to rear its ugly head, with your diction becoming more ludicrous with each post; Jackie hurtling towards middle age no less, predictions of Limerick atomizing Kilkenny next year and declaration that Kilkenny were not in the final on merit, the claims of tiresome fawning over St. Kierans, and of course the usual authorative statements on the opinions and thoughts of Kilkenny people as a collective. It would give the outward impression that there is some latent hurt behind your score settling

Oh and imagine someone having slim fit chino shorts and flip flops in their wardrobe, that is surely the epitome of flamboyance to a sartorially ignorant Tipp man

Nobody can accuse your hurt of being latent anyway. The suffering is palpable.

Gentleman Off The Pitch · 21-08-2019 11:35AM

Powerhouse wrote: »

Nobody can accuse your hurt of being latent anyway. The suffering is palpable.

It hasn't been easy to take

BloodyBill · 21-08-2019 12:23PM

Powerhouse wrote: »

For some reason he seems convinced he's heading out to his Debs every night. Not sure why a guy hurtling towards middle-age insists on dressing like an 18 year old. There's definitely slim-fit chino shorts and flip-flops in that wardrobe.

They all think they are extras on some series like 'Peaky Blinders'. Graeme Mulcahy looked like he had a 'Tommy' gun behind the sofa. Now I wouldn't minded if he had and lined up Marty,Des Cahill, Cusack, Duignan and ect and let them have it..like the Valentines day Massacre from the Chicago of Bugsy Malone and Al Capone.

Mantis Toboggan · 21-08-2019 01:20PM

"I wouldn't be blaming James Owens" says richie, damn right you won't richie, no one to blame but yourself.

"I had to bend my elbow to hold a 36" hurley" say's richie :pac:

"my elbow doesn't connect with his face" say richie!! Look at the attached.

By not taking responsibility for his actions this is only going to run on until next year.

adrian522 · 21-08-2019 01:34PM

Given that your opinion is that Hogan made a deliberate attempt to break Barrett's jaw I don't think there is any reason to take anything you say seriously.

I thought Richie's interview was excellent, it would have been very easy for him to hide away and not say anything. I thought it was very honest and hopefully he'll be back next season and hopefully he gets his injuries sorted out as he has had a terrible run with injuries.

Gentleman Off The Pitch · 21-08-2019 01:35PM

For a man that has posted the same image 400 times in recent days, it's baffling that you cannot see that he struck him with his upper arm, which is to be expected when you line a player up for a shoulder and he steps in side and you reach out to make contact.
Richie admitted he struck Barrett but not with his elbow. Are you still asserting he did?

Gentleman Off The Pitch · 21-08-2019 01:36PM

adrian522 wrote: »

Given that your opinion is that Hogan made a deliberate attempt to break Barrett's jaw I don't think there is any reason to take anything you say seriously.

I thought Richie's interview was excellent, it would have been very easy for him to hide away and not say anything. I thought it was very honest and hopefully he'll be back next season and hopefully he gets his injuries sorted out as he has had a terrible run with injuries.

When you hear nonsense about attempting to break jaws etc. you'd wonder have these people ever held a hurl in their life

Mantis Toboggan · 21-08-2019 01:47PM

Gentleman Off The Pitch wrote: »

For a man that has posted the same image 400 times in recent days, it's baffling that you cannot see that he struck him with his upper arm, which is to be expected when you line a player up for a shoulder and he steps in side and you reach out to make contact.
Richie admitted he struck Barrett but not with his elbow. Are you still asserting he did?

Can ye not just accept it and move on? No need to be so bitter about it. Christ ye've won 36 of them. Blaming the ref will get ye nowhere.

Snow Garden · 21-08-2019 01:52PM

smelly sock wrote: »

What does Cyril Farrell be talking about?

Hurling mainly.

Gentleman Off The Pitch · 21-08-2019 01:53PM

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Can ye not just accept it and move on? No need to be so bitter about it. Christ ye've won 36 of them. Blaming the ref will get ye nowhere.

I'm not blaming the ref, Hogan didn't blame the ref so what are you talking about? You repeatedly stated Hogan struck Barrett with elbow. It is evident from your favourite photo he didn't, that's what i stated. Are you even reading what's being posted?

letsseehere14 · 21-08-2019 01:59PM

My all-star team

B. Hogan (no goalie really stood out for me, that I can remember, so the winning keeper, keeping 4 clean sheets along the way and made some great stops, gets my nod)

C. Barrett (very important to Tipp, adds pace, played well as the free man and was missed when injured)
R. Maher (semi and final performances there were brilliant. excellent at half back too)
S. Finn (thought he was excellent all round this year, really important from Limerick in the full back line)

B. Maher (a true leader, great man marker, he has it all and showed it this year)
P. Walsh (great year for him, did leave John McGrath too muc room to roam in the final but was a strong year for him)
P. Maher (brendan, Ronan and Paudie, all deserve to be on th eteam of the year this year. Showed leadership last Sunday when moved onto Walsh and burst up the middle when tipp needed some inspiration)

N. McGrath (ran the show for Tipp this year, will be remembered as one of the greats)
D. O'Keefe (thought he had a great year this year. up there as one of Wexfords most important players)

L. Chin (he has got some stick over the years but this year he really showed up in every game, form the last point agains tKilkenny in the round robin to the goal in the semi final)
TJ Reid (no explanation necessary)
J. Forde (did his job quietly, 1-18 from play, 2-66 in all. Solid form place balls, sidelines and 65s. Sneaks in ahead of J. McGrath for me)

A. Gillane (maybe some bias on my part, awesome league, averaged 3 points from play every day, 3-50 in 6 games in the championship)
S Callinan (no explanation necessary)
P Horgan (no explanation necessary)

Tipp - 8
Kilkenny - 2
Limerick - 2
Wexford - 2
Cork - 1

Unlucky to miss out:
A Mullen. YHOTY in my opinion, but not fit in the final and there was too many others that did play well in the final and had just as much impact.
J. McGrath had a great final and scored heavily over the championship but the lull from Munster final to red card meant I went with Forde.
C. Fennelly, again had a big impact but it came down to him or Gillane, I though Gillane was that little more impressive.
E. Murphy, only lost out because Tipp won.

Treble double · 21-08-2019 02:38PM

The way hurling has been reffed for the last 10 years plus has led to the uproar over this sending off. Reffs have been encouraged to let matches flow for the sake of better spectacles. This has meant alot of rules not being enforced eg. steps, handpass, general pulling and dragging etc. Players, coaches and spectators have become used to this culture. That's why I have sympathy for Hogan, he has played all his career with this culture and 2 years ago wouldn't have been booked for that challenge if Barrett had got up straight away. I think hurling is coming to a crossroads, reffs can't be expected to pick and choose what rules they enforce for the sake of the spectacle. All rules will have to be enforced for the sake of consistency and with top inter county players calling for a VAR type system it will make for a very stop start poor spectacle. Hurling as a spectacle is brilliant when it is off the cuff, mile a minute, non stop. If it is reduced to a stop start free taking competition it will die. Interesting times ahead for the law makers.

PTH2009 · 21-08-2019 03:05PM

Almost sure I saw Davy Fitz 100/1 for the Galway job

He might be interested in it if he leaves Wexford. Doubt it

rebs23 · 21-08-2019 03:14PM

Treble double wrote: »

The way hurling has been reffed for the last 10 years plus has led to the uproar over this sending off. Reffs have been encouraged to let matches flow for the sake of better spectacles. This has meant alot of rules not being enforced eg. steps, handpass, general pulling and dragging etc. Players, coaches and spectators have become used to this culture. That's why I have sympathy for Hogan, he has played all his career with this culture and 2 years ago wouldn't have been booked for that challenge if Barrett had got up straight away. I think hurling is coming to a crossroads, reffs can't be expected to pick and choose what rules they enforce for the sake of the spectacle. All rules will have to be enforced for the sake of consistency and with top inter county players calling for a VAR type system it will make for a very stop start poor spectacle. Hurling as a spectacle is brilliant when it is off the cuff, mile a minute, non stop. If it is reduced to a stop start free taking competition it will die. Interesting times ahead for the law makers.

At the same time tackling in Hurling has developed in recent years whereby tackling to the head had become semi legitimate due to the mandatory hemet rule, I know back when I was playing if someone made a tackle like Hogans on Sunday there would have been absolute war. You played tough but you did not deliberately tackle someone at head height.
The rubbish that has been allowed to develop has resulted in some dour attritional huring where the skills have been stifled. The current bellyaching from KK is all about trying to influence the direction hurling takes, do we want more scrums, more tackles to the head, more dour purely physical contests, more manly (whatever that means) or do we have rules we enforce?
The ref had a great last Sunday and yet this morning we wake up to more interviews and crap from KK about the refereeing last Sunday, they lost, they deserved to loose, Hogan deserved to see red for his decision to tackle with the elbow raised so why is this debate still going on. The sour grapes is unbelievable for such a fantastic hurling county that has won more than all the rest of us. Give it up and accept that the way hurling was going could not continue.
There have been great open free flowing games in recent years where the ref has let it flow but there hasn't been the bull**** tackling to the head and nasty physical un-manly/cowardly crap.
Over the last 20 years I often thought that he worse mistake teams made when teams played KK was to try and physically intimidate KK. They always simply had the better skillful hurlers. You always tried to beat KK playing hurling.

mosesgun · 21-08-2019 03:22PM

Snow Garden wrote: »

KK folks and Hogan are making complete idiots of themselves now. Jaysus.

Sore sore losers. Embarrassed for them.

No way he has a 36 inch hurl either!

Don't agree with your central point at all but the I laughed when he said a 36" hurl. 33" max I reckon

Chalk McHugh · 21-08-2019 04:31PM

mosesgun wrote: »

Don't agree with your central point at all but the I laughed when he said a 36" hurl. 33" max I reckon

Come on lads we'll give a Richie a pass on that one as he wouldn't be the first man to add an inch or two to his stick.

adrian522 · 21-08-2019 04:34PM

Treble double wrote: »

The way hurling has been reffed for the last 10 years plus has led to the uproar over this sending off. Reffs have been encouraged to let matches flow for the sake of better spectacles. This has meant alot of rules not being enforced eg. steps, handpass, general pulling and dragging etc. Players, coaches and spectators have become used to this culture. That's why I have sympathy for Hogan, he has played all his career with this culture and 2 years ago wouldn't have been booked for that challenge if Barrett had got up straight away. I think hurling is coming to a crossroads, reffs can't be expected to pick and choose what rules they enforce for the sake of the spectacle. All rules will have to be enforced for the sake of consistency and with top inter county players calling for a VAR type system it will make for a very stop start poor spectacle. Hurling as a spectacle is brilliant when it is off the cuff, mile a minute, non stop. If it is reduced to a stop start free taking competition it will die. Interesting times ahead for the law makers.

I think this is a good point. I think it was in the independent today someone was saying that James Owens has set a high standard for punishing these fouls with red cards.

Already this season we saw similar fouls go unpunished or get yellow cards (At least 4 that I can think of off the top of my head) Are we going to see a spate of straight red cards next season?

On 'Off The Ball' last night Richie Hogan was adamant his challenge was "honest" and that in no way could it be described as an elbow to the head.

But unlike the black card in football, there is no distinction between accidental and deliberate. If it's high and hard, it's in red card zone. Now that it has been applied on the highest stage, it sets the standard for other referees to follow.

Thus, the challenge by Bill Cooper that, ironically, caught Hogan in the All-Ireland quarter-final and left Cooper worse off, might be viewed differently now. Owens himself was referee that day.

So, too, will a couple of incidents during the Munster hurling final when Tipp's John O'Dwyer caught Diarmaid Byrnes with a hurl to the head and Ronan Maher met Peter Casey with a shoulder to the head that was late.

If the common consensus was that Hogan's red card was merited and was in line with what is expected from these type of challenges, then it sets a different landscape for the game in the years to come.

Interesting times ahead next year I would say.

bruschi · 21-08-2019 05:17PM

adrian522 wrote: »

I think this is a good point. I think it was in the independent today someone was saying that James Owens has set a high standard for punishing these fouls with red cards.

Already this season we saw similar fouls go unpunished or get yellow cards (At least 4 that I can think of off the top of my head) Are we going to see a spate of straight red cards next season?

Interesting times ahead next year I would say.

that quote is absolutely 100% incorrect. The rules very clearly state that the referee is to issue a card if he deems it to be deliberate and not accidental.

In the following components of this Rule on Aggressive
Fouls, there are references made to specific infractions
being penalised by Caution or Ordering Off – signalled
by Cards of a stated colour. A Card shall be issued only
where the Infraction is deemed by the Referee to have
been deliberate and not accidental.

Again, the ones being compared to hogan are not really comparable at all. Hogan struck a player who had the ball in his hand across the head with a flailing arm. None of the other comparisons had anything similar.

All Ireland Senior Hurling (Liam Mccarthy Cup) 2019

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