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Israel Folau, Billy Vunipola and the intolerance of tolerance

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    #662
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,748 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    Fornication is cheating on your partner. From a biblical perspective, your partner is assumed to be married to you and of the opposite sex. If gays are capable of being monogamous and/or faithful to their partner (and I'll assume you won't argue with that) then "fornication" is not the right word to use for their relationship. Even though they would not be married in the eyes of the church.

    No it isn't, fornication is defined as consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other. You seem to be confusing it with adultery.


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    #663
    Nobelium
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    smacl wrote: »
    So on that basis, by homosexuals there is no reason whatsoever to presume he implied practicing homosexuals as this was already well covered. It would seem to me he was explicitly referring to those who simply are homosexual rather than how they act, much the same as for atheists.

    yes he was incorrect, Christianity condemns homosexual acts / active homosexuals, and not all homosexuals. Now, whether he agrees or not with this, understands it or not, or is just careless with language, I have no idea. He's also a nontrinitarian who rejects mainstream Christian doctrine, so who know what he believes / doesn't believe. - Nor do I really care about what some obscure rugby player in new south wales believes / doesn't believe.


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    #664
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    smacl wrote: »
    No it isn't, fornication is defined as consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other. You seem to be confusing it with adultery.
    Yes you are right on that point. But you still can't infer from it that he means celibate homosexuals, just because he also mentions fornicators.
    Nobelium wrote: »
    He's also a nontrinitarian
    If so, how is that relevant? He is obviously an evangelical Christian fundamentalist whose views are informed mainly by the bible.


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    #665
    Nobelium
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    recedite wrote: »
    If so, how is that relevant? He is obviously an evangelical Christian fundamentalist whose views are informed mainly by the bible.

    nontrinitarians reject mainstream Christian doctrine, so I have no idea, nor am I going to assume, what else he believes doesn't believe, or how he interprets the bible.


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    #666
    boetstark
    Registered Users Posts: 922 ✭✭✭boetstark


    robinph wrote: »
    So you are upset that you can no longer be intolerant of others then?

    There is no mention of intolerance or hatred. The bible clearly states punishment is in the afterlife. These principles have not changed over the centuries so why should they change now.
    I would wager most of the people that are so outraged over Israel's comments dont believe in the teachings of the bible, nor do they believe in an afterlife , so what is the issue.
    As a Christian I try to live my life according to my beliefs and I will make no apology for this nor will I be forced to conceal my religious beliefs like some dirty secret.
    Live and let live I say but I am entitled to my beliefs without advocating violence or hate towards others.


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    #667
    Nobelium
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    boetstark wrote: »
    There is no mention of intolerance or hatred. The bible clearly states punishment is in the afterlife. These principles have not changed over the centuries so why should they change now.
    I would wager most of the people that are so outraged over Israel's comments dont believe in the teachings of the bible, nor do they believe in an afterlife , so what is the issue.
    As a Christian I try to live my life according to my beliefs and I will make no apology for this nor will I be forced to conceal my religious beliefs like some dirty secret.
    Live and let live I say but I am entitled to my beliefs without advocating violence or hate towards others.

    yes but you do you agree Israel Folau's controversial posts were pretty stupid, unchristian, and inaccurate ?


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    #668
    boetstark
    Registered Users Posts: 922 ✭✭✭boetstark


    Nobelium wrote: »
    yes but you do you agree Israel Folau's controversial posts were pretty stupid, unchristian, and inaccurate ?

    Stupid yes because he must have known the fallout considering he is high profile.
    I dont agree the comments were un Christian as the bible does condemn the act of homosexuality. Personally I have never read the condemnation in words such as burn in hell which I consider a tad strong.
    But I do agree with the basic just of his tweet.


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    #669
    Nobelium
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    boetstark wrote: »
    Stupid yes because he must have known the fallout considering he is high profile.
    I dont agree the comments were un Christian as the bible does condemn the act of homosexuality. Personally I have never read the condemnation in words such as burn in hell which I consider a tad strong.
    But I do agree with the basic just of his tweet.

    but it wasn't acts Folau referred to, it was homosexuals
    Folau posted a screenshot of a meme which listed various groups, including “homosexuals, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves”, bearing the words, “WARNING: HELL AWAITS YOU. REPENT. ONLY JESUS SAVES”. Rugby Australia immediately denounced the post as homophobic.The next day, Rugby Australia announced their intention to terminate his contract. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Folau


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    #670
    boetstark
    Registered Users Posts: 922 ✭✭✭boetstark


    Nobelium wrote: »
    but it wasn't acts Folau referred to, it was homosexuals

    I see your point but Old Testament Book of Genesis also condemns the homosexual desire.
    New testament mostly concentrates on the abomination of the homosexual act.
    Personally as I said I do not agree with homosexuality but it is not for me to condemn people. But I still stick by my Christian beliefs.
    I respect Folaeu and Vuniupolo for the courage of expressing their beliefs.
    Likewise I abhor the hypocrisy of irish Roman Catholics for their ala carte view to thr teachings of the bible.


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    #671
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,748 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    Yes you are right on that point. But you still can't infer from it that he means celibate homosexuals, just because he also mentions fornicators.

    True, but you can infer that he's not talking specifically about homosexual sexual activity here because that's already covered under fornication. So if not homosexual sexual activity, what precisely? If I'm honest, I'd rather doubt that Folau has actually considered this, he's simply parroting other sources. What is clear however he has been warned in the past that his posts are offensive and unacceptable from a member of the national team and he has obstinately continued to carry on regardless.


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    #672
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Nobelium wrote: »
    nontrinitarians reject mainstream Christian doctrine, so I have no idea, nor am I going to assume, what else he believes doesn't believe, or how he interprets the bible.
    That would be an ecumenical matter, as Father Jack would say.

    So I'll gladly agree to park that one, and move on...




    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuW8TaAlBfg


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    #673
    Nobelium
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    boetstark wrote: »
    I respect Folaeu and Vuniupolo for the courage of expressing their beliefs.
    Likewise I abhor the hypocrisy of irish Roman Catholics for their ala carte view to thr teachings of the bible.

    I'm not really sure I understand your logic that an la carte protestant interpretation of scripture and Folaeu's non trinitarian beliefs are ok, but an a la carte catholics interpretation is not ok. Smacks of double standards and sectarianism to me. Also I'm not sure what their nationality has to do with it ?


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    #674
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    recedite wrote: »
    Can these people not see the irony of excluding a person from the game because of their religious beliefs, and then claiming its done in the interests of "inclusivity"?

    We now await the appeal, and the arrival of the unfair dismissal lawyers.


    :DI hate to say I told you so, but...
    Israel Folau’s unfair dismissal case against Rugby Australia and the New South Wales Waratahs will head to trial in February, 2020 if no settlement is reached beforehand.


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    #675
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,394 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    We knew that nearly 3 months ago


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    #676
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    We knew that nearly 3 months ago
    The newspaper article is dated August 13th.
    The lawyer for the former Australia fullback faced the Federal Circuit Court in Melbourne on Tuesday for a directions hearing where chief judge Will Alstergren encouraged the parties to settle their dispute through mediation on December 13th. Should mediation fail, the case would proceed to trial on February 4th 2020.
    Which part of that did you "know" 3 months ago?


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    #677
    AngryHippie
    Registered Users Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭AngryHippie


    recedite wrote: »
    The newspaper article is dated August 13th.

    Which part of that did you "know" 3 months ago?

    He is going to appeal.

    Even had the gall to crowdfund it.
    Average joe Footy fan, giving a multi-millionaire donations so he can keep his job despite circulating hate speech about minorities in direct contravention of his million dollar contract.

    Its very hard to feel any sympathy for this fool.


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    #678
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,394 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    recedite wrote: »

    Which part of that did you "know" 3 months ago?

    That he was going to sue for unfair dismissal


    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/israel-folau-to-sue-rugby-australia-over-dismissal-1.3916617%3fmode=amp

    Dated June 6th


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    #679
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    he was going to sue for unfair dismissal
    And now he is doing it.


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    #680
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Win or lose, he still loses though. Slight possibility he gets some cash, but he won't be back playing international rugby either way.

    Best case for him would either be to retract his statement, or just stop fighting it and shut up so that he stops wasting his money. He might be able to get a role with a team in some emerging rugby nation, but no Australian club is going to touch him or any other club in another country that anyone has ever heard of.


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    #681
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    robinph wrote: »
    Win or lose, he still loses though.
    Oh yeah, but there's always a price to pay for sticking rigidly to your principles.


    Australian rugby is also losing - very badly.

    Without their best player; 36 nil to the All Blacks. Embarrassing.


    The All Blacks had the last laugh. Or they would have, had hot rage not fuelled their every carry, tackle, fend and clear-out as they bludgeoned Australia in an 80-minute rampage that finished one point shy of equalling the Wallabies’ largest ever losing margin to New Zealand.


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    #682
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,320 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    recedite wrote: »
    Oh yeah, but there's always a price to pay for sticking rigidly to your principles.


    Australian rugby is also losing - very badly.

    Without their best player; 36 nil to the All Blacks. Embarrassing.

    Was that not just a week after Australia beat NZ by a record score?


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    #683
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,394 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    salmocab wrote: »
    Was that not just a week after Australia beat NZ by a record score?

    it was, but obviously his googling didnt go back to a week earlier :D


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    #684
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Australia winning 47 -26 in a previous game, when they were playing 15 players against only 14 Kiwis for most of the game, is not particularly noteworthy.

    But losing 36-nil is a national humiliation.


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    #685
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    recedite wrote: »
    Oh yeah, but there's always a price to pay for sticking rigidly to your principles.

    Yep, and in Folaus case it is that he's lost his job for sticking to his "principle" of spouting homophobic abuse online.

    Rugby Australia are missing one player, who happened to be pretty good, but there are thousands of others for them to chose from. One player is not the reason for a trouncing, it is a team sport remember.


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    #686
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,320 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    recedite wrote: »
    Australia winning 47 -26 in a previous game, when they were playing 15 players against only 14 Kiwis for most of the game, is not particularly noteworthy.

    But losing 36-nil is a national humiliation.

    Putting the highest score anyone has ever put on the top world rugby nation is particularly noteworthy


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    #687
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    robinph wrote: »
    homophobic abuse
    We're still waiting here for somebody to name one single victim of this so-called homophobic abuse.
    Folau has his general views on homosexuality, which he is entitled to, and which happen to be backed by the religious texts of the 3 main world religions.
    He has not verbally or physically abused, or discriminated against, any homosexual player AFAIK. If he had, I think we would know about it.


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    #688
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    recedite wrote: »
    We're still waiting here for somebody to name one single victim of this so-called homophobic abuse.
    Folau has his general views on homosexuality, which he is entitled to, and which happen to be backed by the religious texts of the 3 main world religions.
    He has not verbally or physically abused, or discriminated against, any homosexual player AFAIK. If he had, I think we would know about it.

    How is he NOT directing his comments at every single gay person on the planet?

    Religion having directed abuse and intolerance at groups of people throughout history does not give them the right to continue to do so. The right to believe in whatever version of a deity, or not, that you want to is protected. However, there is no right to direct abuse at anyone else because you claim that your deity said that you should.


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    #689
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    robinph wrote: »
    How is he NOT directing his comments at every single gay person on the planet?
    And this is exactly the problem. There was a time when gays suffered from actual abuse and discrimination. Thankfully, that time is gone (at least in the western world)
    But now, just expressing an opinion that is not fully pro-homosexuality is being equated by the gay lobby to being an abuse of homosexuals.


    Rugby Australia could have issued a press statement to say they didn't endorse the private views of any particular player, and that could have been the end of it.


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    #690
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,394 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    recedite wrote: »
    Rugby Australia could have issued a press statement to say they didn't endorse the private views of any particular player, and that could have been the end of it.

    and thats the crux of the matter

    it wasnt a private view, it was broadcasted to hundreds of thousands of people.


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    #691
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    recedite wrote: »
    And this is exactly the problem. There was a time when gays suffered from actual abuse and discrimination. Thankfully, that time is gone (at least in the western world)
    But now, just expressing an opinion that is not fully pro-homosexuality is being equated by the gay lobby to being an abuse of homosexuals.
    He could have kept his mouth shut. No need to promote homsexuality, just accept that it exist and get on with your life and mind your own business.
    recedite wrote: »
    Rugby Australia could have issued a press statement to say they didn't endorse the private views of any particular player, and that could have been the end of it.
    Not sure what press releases Rugby Australia released previously, but they had told Folau to stop doing what he was doing multiple times or he'd lose his contract. He chose to sacrifice his job for the sake of telling homosexuals they were going to hell.


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