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General Ryanair discusion

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    #482
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    rivegauche wrote: »
    In the interests of fairness if you have 9min50sec spare it is probably better for people to decide for themselves after listening: https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts
    The link is labelled "Pilots pay is a complex matter".

    Not a very convincing performance from the union rep at all, the other guy they had last year was a lot more polished.

    That aside you have to remember that union membership and IR in general is still new territory for Ryanair, they still seem to want to drag the other side out into a street war and engage with them in a flame war on Twitter and social media where it's so much easier for them to try and spin the narrative. This didn't work out too well for them last time and the dispute was really only resolved when they brought in Kieran Mulvey who was able to take the whole thing off the boil, and more importantly off social media so they could come to an agreement at the table.


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    #483
    Lapmo_Dancer
    Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭Lapmo_Dancer


    According to ppjn.com, which is a reputable website, the max basic pay achievable for an ordinary line Captain in Ryanair is €142, 000.

    Lufthansa’s figure is €292, 320. Air France and KLM are similar.


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    #484
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    and you don't mention the 155,000 and you don't mention that you'll be a wizened old man by the time you are earning the big bucks on those other airlines. No wizened old man wants to be spending so much time away from home living in a hotel to earn those rates on a Widebody flying to Asia or America.


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    #485
    ahbell
    Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭ahbell


    Supposed to be flying to Prague for a wedding on 23rd from Dublin. Paid €175 for a new flight the same day with Aer Lingus - I just hope there's still a wedding to go to as most of the wedding party flying on Ryanair on 22nd.


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    #486
    Lapmo_Dancer
    Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭Lapmo_Dancer


    rivegauche wrote: »
    and you don't mention the 155,000

    Why are you introducing Type Rating Examiner/Line Training Captain/Base Captain pay into the discussion? Like I said, I was quoting ordinary line Captain pay. The extra paid to TREs/LTCs/BCs in LH, KL, AF etc is significantly more than the extra €13K that Ryanair pay.

    Fleet pay is an American thing and not so common in Europe. A 20yr 320 Capt gets paid the same as a 20yr 330 Capt.

    Those figures are achievable by someone in their early 40s.


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    #487
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    ahbell wrote: »
    Supposed to be flying to Prague for a wedding on 23rd from Dublin. Paid €175 for a new flight the same day with Aer Lingus - I just hope there's still a wedding to go to as most of the wedding party flying on Ryanair on 22nd.
    That plane EI-EGA started the day today in Prague on a flight to Brussels. I don't expect that that flight is going to get cancelled or delayed on the 22nd.


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    #488
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    Lapmo_Dancer wrote: »
    Those figures are achievable by someone in their early 40s.
    ....if a long line of pilots pop their clogs or retire ahead of them. Show me the unicorn that got in to that seat on an intercontinental Widebody after serving their time in the other seat. And then show me the Unicorn without fluent German, French or Dutch who got those positions because the language is an invisible barrier to entry in the first place.


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    #489
    bennyineire
    Registered Users Posts: 2,469 ✭✭✭bennyineire


    When do we suppose the cancelled flights will be announced. We have 12 lads hoping to fly out to Edinburgh on the 23rd and back the 25th.

    I swore last year after having my flight cancelled 8 hours (with the kids) after it was due to take off never to fly Ryanair again. Ah well I'll never learn


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    #490
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    bennyineire wrote: »
    When do we suppose the cancelled flights will be announced. We have 12 lads hoping to fly out to Edinburgh on the 23rd and back the 25th.

    I swore last year after having my flight cancelled 8 hours (with the kids) after it was due to take off never to fly Ryanair again. Ah well I'll never learn
    As I said before on thread there are a number of flights to Edinburgh. You'll get there if not on the one you are booked on then on one of the others.
    Was it industrial action or exceptional circumstance last time?


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    #491
    blacklilly
    Registered Users Posts: 2,687 ✭✭✭blacklilly


    I'm due to fly to Amsterdam on the 23rd (my return shouldn't be affected).

    Can someone advise if it's likely that all Ryanair flights will be cancelled if the strike persists?


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    #492
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,887 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    blacklilly wrote: »
    Can someone advise if it's likely that all Ryanair flights will be cancelled if the strike persists?

    no it is unlikely that all flights will be cancelled

    but we cant say which one swill until Ryanair announce that


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    #493
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    "if it's likely that all Ryanair flights will be cancelled"
    likelyhood is zero...will your flight be cancelled...unlikely and if it is you'll probably still get there on one of the other three Ryanair flights from Dublin on the same day.


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    #494
    bennyineire
    Registered Users Posts: 2,469 ✭✭✭bennyineire


    rivegauche wrote: »
    As I said before on thread there are a number of flights to Edinburgh. You'll get there if not on the one you are booked on then on one of the others.
    Was it industrial action or exceptional circumstance last time?

    Mmm why are you so sure about Edinburgh, we are due out at 12.35 which is a sold out flight as is the 17:10 flight.

    There is of course the 06:40 flight (which won't work for some of the lads as they are connecting at Dublin) and the 20:55 flight which is frankly way too late

    Was it industrial action or exceptional circumstance last time This was around the thunderstorm debacle


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    #495
    Lapmo_Dancer
    Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭Lapmo_Dancer


    rivegauche wrote: »
    ....if a long line of pilots pop their clogs or retire ahead of them. Show me the unicorn that got in to that seat on an intercontinental Widebody after serving their time in the other seat. And then show me the Unicorn without fluent German, French or Dutch who got those positions because the language is an invisible barrier to entry in the first place.

    I’m not sure why you keep mentioning “intercontinental Widebody”?

    Mainline pilots in Europe, with one or two exceptions, are paid their basic pay on the basis of their seniority within the company, irrespective of type flown.

    It is not unreasonable to deduct that a cadet joining in his/her early 20s will have reached top of scale by his/her early-mid 40s.

    You mention wizened old men in your previous post. Retirement age in Ryanair is 65. Retirement age in the airlines mentioned (defined benefit pension) is 58 in KLM and 60 in LH and AF.


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    #496
    0lddog
    Registered Users Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭0lddog


    What are the pay scales in Lufty subs such as Eurowings like ?


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    #497
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    0lddog wrote: »
    What are the pay scales in Lufty subs such as Eurowings like ?
    Reportedly much lower than Ryanair since the last pay hike but his posts are being carefully crafted to paint the best possible scenario for Unicorn Pilots in the old legacies and those Unicorn Pilots get their salaries at the expense of their comrades slaving away in the other brands of the same employer.


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    #498
    Lapmo_Dancer
    Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭Lapmo_Dancer


    0lddog wrote: »
    What are the pay scales in Lufty subs such as Eurowings like ?

    The figures are available online.

    Top of scale basic pay for an ordinary line pilot is 14% higher at Eurowings.

    For a year 1 FO, basic pay is over 100% higher at Eurowings.

    That’s just a snapshot and doesn’t take into account pension, duty pay, leave entitlements or loss of licence insurance etc


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    #499
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    Lapmo_Dancer wrote: »
    Top of scale basic pay for an ordinary line pilot is 14% higher at Eurowings.
    ...and a Ryanair pilot doing the hours?


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    #500
    ahbell
    Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭ahbell


    rivegauche wrote: »
    That plane EI-EGA started the day today in Prague on a flight to Brussels. I don't expect that that flight is going to get cancelled or delayed on the 22nd.

    What about the 23rd?


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    #501
    Lapmo_Dancer
    Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭Lapmo_Dancer


    rivegauche wrote: »
    ...and a Ryanair pilot doing the hours?

    If a top of scale Ryanair Captain operates to the maximum yearly amount that he/she is legally authorized to, he/she will earn a total of €144,396 including everything:
    Monthly € -
    6933 gross basic
    1000 productivity bonus
    500 monthly allowance
    48 flight pay per block hour (max 900 per year)


    The top of scale Eurowings Captain earns €161,079 before flying any hours. That’s his or her basic pay.

    On top of that, they are also paid per duty hour and not per block hour. If we say (conservatively) that they work 140 duty hours per month, that would be an extra €32,215 per year on top of the basic €161,079.

    So the Eurowings pilot is €48,898 better off for the year.

    Plus company loss of licence insurance.

    Plus 42 days leave versus 28 at Ryanair.


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    #502
    Locker10a
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 4,156 Mod ✭✭✭✭Locker10a


    Lapmo_Dancer wrote: »
    If a top of scale Ryanair Captain operates to the maximum yearly amount that he/she is legally authorized to, he/she will earn a total of €144,396 including everything:
    Monthly € -
    6933 gross basic
    1000 productivity bonus
    500 monthly allowance
    48 flight pay per block hour (max 900 per year)


    The top of scale Eurowings Captain earns €161,079 before flying any hours. That’s his or her basic pay.

    On top of that, they are also paid per duty hour and not per block hour. If we say (conservatively) that they work 140 duty hours per month, that would be an extra €32,215 per year on top of the basic €161,079.

    So the Eurowings pilot is €48,898 better off for the year.

    Plus company loss of licence insurance.

    Plus 42 days leave versus 28 at Ryanair.


    Wow


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    #503
    marcos_94
    Registered Users Posts: 346 ✭✭marcos_94


    Lapmo_Dancer wrote: »
    If a top of scale Ryanair Captain operates to the maximum yearly amount that he/she is legally authorized to, he/she will earn a total of €144,396 including everything:
    Monthly € -
    6933 gross basic
    1000 productivity bonus
    500 monthly allowance
    48 flight pay per block hour (max 900 per year)


    The top of scale Eurowings Captain earns €161,079 before flying any hours. That’s his or her basic pay.

    On top of that, they are also paid per duty hour and not per block hour. If we say (conservatively) that they work 140 duty hours per month, that would be an extra €32,215 per year on top of the basic €161,079.

    So the Eurowings pilot is €48,898 better off for the year.

    Plus company loss of licence insurance.

    Plus 42 days leave versus 28 at Ryanair.

    Do you have a link? Eurowings sounds quite good!


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    #504
    Lapmo_Dancer
    Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭Lapmo_Dancer


    marcos_94 wrote: »
    Do you have a link? Eurowings sounds quite good!

    I’m using figures available on ppjn.com (pilotjobsnetwork.com)


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    #505
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    Sounds dreamy.
    Now lets get back to reality.
    https://www.career.aero/eurowings-group/en/job/show/id/2776

    Thats for a proven PIC before taxes.
    If you are in Germany the taxes are vicious especially if you are single. You must pay in to the German old age pension system and it isn't cheap and you must have health insurance which is expensive.

    and for the other seat:
    https://www.career.aero/eurowings-group/en/job/show/id/2812

    We are off-topic but if IALPA selling this pot of gold at the end of the rainbow to the Pilots to entice them on to a picket line they are doing them a serious dis-service.


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    #506
    Lapmo_Dancer
    Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭Lapmo_Dancer


    rivegauche wrote: »
    Sounds dreamy.
    Now lets get back to reality.
    https://www.career.aero/eurowings-group/en/job/show/id/2776

    Thats for a proven PIC before taxes.
    If you are in Germany the taxes are vicious especially if you are single. You must pay in to the German old age pension system and it isn't cheap and you must have health insurance which is expensive.

    and for the other seat:
    https://www.career.aero/eurowings-group/en/job/show/id/2812

    We are off-topic but if IALPA selling this pot of gold at the end of the rainbow to the Pilots to entice them on to a picket line they are doing them a serious dis-service.

    You are only quoting the year 1 basic pay of a 20 year pay scale and not including duty pay whereas for Ryanair you give a top of scale TRE’s salary including flight pay, loyalty bonus etc. Why not compare like with like?

    Comparing like with like, Ryanair’s gross basic is €83,196. It is a 1 year pay scale, so a year 20 Ryanair Capt’s gross basic will also be €83,196 whereas a year 20 Eurowings Capt (on a poorer non German contract) will have a guaranteed basic salary of €139,288 plus significant duty pay (guaranteed 75 duty hours irrespective of hours flown).

    Why not quote German contracts, which I used in my previous post as this is where Eurowings have the vast majority of their bases and operations?

    Do Ryanair supplement the salaries of their German pilots for all the reasons you yourself outlined?

    I’m not sure why you then quote FO salaries as it just highlights how poor Ryanair’s are.

    Again, the salaries quoted on Eurowing’s website are entry level, year 1 salaries, and will increase significantly each year for the pilot. A top of scale FO in Germany is on a basic of €90,095. When you add duty pay this is almost as much as a max hour Ryanair Captain will take home. For balance, a non-German base top of scale FO is €70,187.

    Ryanair basic FO pay:
    With less than 500 hours: €21k

    More than 500 hours but less than 1500 hours: €23k

    More than 1500 hours: €39k


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    #507
    Blut2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,944 ✭✭✭Blut2


    Its interesting that when rivegauche's claim that pay scales in Eurowings are "much lower than Ryanair since the last pay hike" is proven completely wrong by the real life figures he subsequently moves the goal posts to "oh but German taxes..." and quoting of non-comparable positional salaries, with no acknowledgement of the error/lie. Will you ever admit Ryanair to be in the wrong?

    If Eurowings and other budget carriers can pay their pilots properly then Ryanair certainly can. I'm one of many likely to inconvenienced by the upcoming strikes but I completely support the pilots. They do a difficult, highly skilled job, and deserve a salary (and treatment from their employer) to match that. When it comes to paying people who literally have my life, and the lives of hundreds of other people, in their hands for tens of hours every week its best not to cut corners.


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    #508
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,119 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    I hope that I'm not off-topic, but what is the chance of the FR route from NOC to CGN being kept on in summer 2020?

    Based on the fares I saw during July 2019, as low as 30 euro one-way, I don't think this service will run next year??


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    #509
    Jack1985
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Jack1985


    Lapmo_Dancer wrote: »
    Ryanair basic FO pay:
    With less than 500 hours: €21k

    More than 500 hours but less than 1500 hours: €23k

    More than 1500 hours: €39k

    There's Aer Lingus Cabin Crew with less than 5 years LOS earning more than that last figure..


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    #510
    dubdaymo
    Registered Users Posts: 307 ✭✭dubdaymo


    Blut2 wrote: »
    When it comes to paying people who literally have my life, and the lives of hundreds of other people, in their hands for tens of hours every week its best not to cut corners.

    What do you mean by "cutting corners" in this instance?

    Are you suggesting that a pilot's wages could be a defining factor in the quality of care and attention he applies to his job of flying you safely to your destination?


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    #511
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    Blut2 wrote: »
    Its interesting that when rivegauche's claim that pay scales in Eurowings are "much lower than Ryanair since the last pay hike" is proven completely wrong by the real life figures he subsequently moves the goal posts to "oh but German taxes..." and quoting of non-comparable positional salaries, with no acknowledgement of the error/lie. Will you ever admit Ryanair to be in the wrong?

    If Eurowings and other budget carriers can pay their pilots properly then Ryanair certainly can. I'm one of many likely to inconvenienced by the upcoming strikes but I completely support the pilots. They do a difficult, highly skilled job, and deserve a salary (and treatment from their employer) to match that. When it comes to paying people who literally have my life, and the lives of hundreds of other people, in their hands for tens of hours every week its best not to cut corners.
    Angela Kirk of IALPA says Ryanair Pilots whom she represents(approx 7 minutes in to the link below) earn in the region of 180k per year.
    I don't see why they'd be moving to the bottom rungs at Eurowings.
    https://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/html5/#/radio1/21603944


    Learn German and read this interview with a poorly paid Eurowings pilot or throw it in Google Translate.
    https://www.spiegel.de/lebenundlernen/job/pilot-bei-eurowings-so-sieht-der-joballtag-aus-a-1115448.html

    Anyone who dismisses the difference between BRUTTO and NETTO has never been in paid employment in Germany. BRUTTO bedeutet nichts!

    If you are not German your chances for advancement are severely limited and you will be at the end of a long line of ex-Berlin air and DHL pilots Good Ol' Boys and even cadets will be ahead of you.
    Despite all the training in my organisation about cultural sensitivity and equal status my Colleague, Heinz Christopher(real name), who is a line manager will be putting your resume in the shredder for his open positions if you aren't German.

    The pilots in eurowings are hoping that some Captains are assimilated in to Lufthansa so that promotion opportunities present themselves. A 20 year slog to climb the ladder doesn't get you in to a well paid job.

    pprune.org hints at the issues with Eurowings.
    https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/611485-eurowings-germany.html
    There is a lot of noise in that discussion but it shows that Eurowings isn't the promised land. Nobody on that thread is saying I just have to serve my time and I'll be on the pig's back.

    A Ryanair Cadet youngster will be earning more a lot sooner than a Eurowing contemporary and will be able to shield it from taxation.

    There is a reason why many IT professionals work on contract; it is tax advantageous and even more so in Germany.
    To those of you thinking to apply for one of the postions I posted for Eurowings above another useful german phrase: "einkommensteuer rechner". Far away fields are not always greener.

    The most ridiculous thing is that thanks to seniority these jobs are of absolutely no use to any Ryanair pilots as they will be placed at the very end of the queue and have to bide their 20 years to get those claimed salaries in Eurowings. They expect you to prove you are a PIC for a number of years and then start you on a low wage. Meritocratic it is not.


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