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Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

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    #1502
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,973 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    There's a Disney-ending part of me that hopes that the fuckers who assured the British public that Brexit would be a total cakewalk would all get together and hold a press conference and just say 'We're sorry, we totally underestimated Britain's relative strength and we messed up badly'. Then a groundswell gets behind revoking A50 and forgetting the whole thing happened.

    But no, I think not.

    Brexit is a symptom remember - a symptom of the UK breaking up. If they 'revoke' I reckon that will happen faster than if they thrash out a deal or even No Deal.


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    #1503
    declanflynn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭declanflynn


    Aegir wrote: »
    Who gets to decide if Brexit undermines peace in the north, the US Senate, the Eu, the Irish government or some brainwashed kid from the Bogside?
    I think everyone knows who is undermining the GFA


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    #1504
    declanflynn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭declanflynn


    InTheShadows wrote: »
    declanflynn wrote: »
    Ireland will be fine without britian, the EU will be fine without britian, who cares what happens the brits they are known the world over as a shower of mankers (w)

    Horrible comment. I've plenty of British friends and they are anything but the names you called them.
    I'm not referring to the ordinary british peasants, I'm referring to the majority of the ruling class


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    #1505
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,092 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Aegir wrote: »
    the CTA is completely independent of the EU and has already been acknowledged as such. British citizens in Ireland and Irish citizens in the UK will continue to have the same rights as they do today, regardless of how hard or soft Brexit is.

    Unless you have seen something I haven't, neither the UK or the EU has mentioned Visas being required for travel in either jurisdiction.
    This is complicated, but bear in mind that we're not talking here about the rights of UK citizens in Ireland or Irish citizens in the UK, both of which will remain unchanged. We're talking about the rights of UK citizens in the Schengen area, where there is a common visa policy.

    As Dytalus says, in a no-deal situation the EU intention is to allow UK citizens visa-free access for visits of up to 90 days in any 180 day period. This is conditional on the UK extending the same right to EU citizens; it is the UK's intention to do that. So that all seems good. There are some conditions - you need a valid, machine-readable or biometric passport; you may be asked to justify the purpose or your visit and demonstrate sufficient funds for your stay and your journey home; the usual stuff. Not too onerous.

    But.

    These are the border rules; the rules about actually getting in. The rules about what you can do once in a Schengen country are not covered by the common visa policy, and vary from country to country. If you're going for tourism or recreation, no problem. But if you're going for work purposes:

    - Some Schengen countries will allow you to work without restriction.

    - Some Schengen countries will allow you to work, but only if you obtain a work permit from the government(s) of the country(countries) in which you wish to work, which will depend on you qualifying for a work permit under whatever conditions they choose to set.

    - Some Schengen countries will not allow you to work at all.

    - Some Schengen countries allow citizens of some third countries to work but not citizens of other third countries, and we'll have to wait and see whether those countries do or do not add the UK to the list of those allowed to work. Each country will make its own decision.

    In some cases restrictions on "work" merely prevent you from taking a local employment. Others prevent you from coming to the country for the purpose of carrying out your UK-based employment there.

    So UK citizens wishing to travel for work or business in the EU (other than Ireland) will face a patchwork of restrictions and bureacratic requirements. This will apply equally to UK citizens living in the UK, to UK citizens living in Ireland and indeed to UK citizens living in other EU countries - a UK citizen resident in France, for example, can freely enter Germany but cannot work in Germany. He can freely enter Denmark, but cannot work there unless he obtains a Danish work permit. And if his Danish employer then wishes him to go and work in Norway, he'll need to obtain a Norwegian work permit. If the Danish employer wishes him to go and work in Germany, he can't.


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    #1506
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    NIMAN wrote: »
    Anyone watched The Great Hack on Netflix?

    Seen it last night, lot about Cambridge Analytica and their role on helping the Leave.EU campaign.

    It's pretty shocking stuff.
    Appears they had been doing trial runs for many years in places like Romania, The Caribbean etc, before their masterpieces, getting Brexit and Trump through.

    Christ, can people not just accept that the Brits voted out and Hillary didnt win? Its attiudes like yours that have referendums run twice.


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    #1507
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,092 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Christ, can people not just accept that the Brits voted out and Hillary didnt win? Its attiudes like yours that have referendums run twice.
    Surely running referendums twice is a good thing, if the first exercise is shown to have been dodgy or corrupt?


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    #1508
    declanflynn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭declanflynn


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    NIMAN wrote: »
    Anyone watched The Great Hack on Netflix?

    Seen it last night, lot about Cambridge Analytica and their role on helping the Leave.EU campaign.

    It's pretty shocking stuff.
    Appears they had been doing trial runs for many years in places like Romania, The Caribbean etc, before their masterpieces, getting Brexit and Trump through.

    Christ, can people not just accept that the Brits voted out and Hillary didnt win? Its attiudes like yours that have referendums run twice.
    Ur right, the ts sorry british voted out and they should go, in fact they should go now and they will be the worlds fastest growing economy by half past 8


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    #1509
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Christ, can people not just accept that the Brits voted out and Hillary didnt win? Its attiudes like yours that have referendums run twice.
    Surely running referendums twice is a good thing, if the first exercise is shown to have been dodgy or corrupt?
    Since I found out the 2016 referendum was only 'advisory'I have never understood how brexiteers are getting away with their'the result must be respected'nonsense.


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    #1510
    declanflynn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭declanflynn


    The british are like rats in a barrell running out of food and you just know what's going to happen next,
    I think it's super entertainment and it's going to get even better


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    #1511
    declanflynn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭declanflynn


    There are less Eastern Europeans in britain now that there were 5 years ago, even fruit pickers can see where their economy is going, de peffel (could be spelled incorrectly it's some kind of Muslim or foreign name) could replace cummings with one of them


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    #1512
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,973 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    Since I found out the 2016 referendum was only 'advisory'I have never understood how brexiteers are getting away with their'the result must be respected'nonsense.

    That was fine up until the issuance of Art 50.

    Ever since that, the onus was on the British to leave. They got their deal and they are still here.
    That is entirely their own responsibility. Most of that time has been spent by us in the EU waiting for them to get their **** together.


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    #1513
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I see Johnson came out yesterday to essentially accuse other British politicians of being fifth columnists of the European Union. Classic accusation of populists and dictators everywhere. This is British political discourse in 2019. If you know your 20th century rise of populism/fascism European history, be afraid.

    Johnson sparks cross-party backlash over Brexit ‘collaboration’ claim

    We badly need some analysis from political scientists of this brand of populism. Fintan O'Toole's internationally read 'Trial runs for fascism are in full flow' used the wrong word: fascism is a 1920s/30s phenomeon with very specific characteristics. While what the Brexiteers are modelled on has huge similarities to the populism in Germany in 1929-34 - scapegoating of outsiders; "big lie" propaganda; most print media controlled by about 8 tax-dodging British oligarchs; demonising of opponents as traitors/disloyal etc; undermining democracy (via technology); and so much else - this is a distinct brand of populism. Misusing words like fascism does our understanding of it no good.


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    #1514
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    declanflynn wrote: »
    There are less Eastern Europeans in britain now that there were 5 years ago, even fruit pickers can see where their economy is going

    Do you have stats for, or analysis on, this "fewer Europeans" claim, Declan? Would be interesting to see, and which nationalities in particular are moving home. I wonder have some moved on to Ireland or another EU state that isn't their own?


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    #1515
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I see Johnson came out yesterday to essentially accuse other British politicians of being fifth columnists of the European Union. Classic accusation of populists and dictators everywhere. This is British political discourse in 2019. If you know your 20th century rise of populism/fascism European history, be afraid.

    Johnson sparks cross-party backlash over Brexit ‘collaboration’ claim

    We badly need some analysis from political scientists of this brand of populism. Fintan O'Toole's internationally read 'Trial runs for fascism are in full flow' used the wrong word: fascism is a 1920s/30s phenomeon with very specific characteristics. While what the Brexiteers are modelled on has huge similarities to the populism in Germany in 1929-34 - scapegoating of outsiders; "big lie" propaganda; most print media controlled by about 8 tax-dodging British oligarchs; demonising of opponents as traitors/disloyal etc; undermining democracy (via technology); and so much else - this is a distinct brand of populism. Misusing words like fascism does our understanding of it no good.

    I agree, calling them fascist makes no sense and just diverts debate away from what's actually happening.


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    #1516
    declanflynn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭declanflynn


    Deleted User wrote: »
    declanflynn wrote: »
    There are less Eastern Europeans in britain now that there were 5 years ago, even fruit pickers can see where their economy is going

    Do you have stats for, or analysis on, this "fewer Europeans" claim, Declan? Would be interesting to see, and which nationalities in particular are moving home. I wonder have some moved on to Ireland or another EU state that isn't their own?
    Don't have stats, the farmers unoin in britian have made dis claim, they are finding it much harder to retain eastern European workers and impossible to attract new ones


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    #1517
    SCOOP 64
    Registered Users Posts: 5,213 ✭✭✭SCOOP 64


    declanflynn wrote: »
    Don't have stats, the farmers unoin in britian have made dis claim, they are finding it much harder to retain eastern European workers and impossible to attract new ones


    Must be hard getting the cheapest labor, saying that Irelands not to far away.


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    #1518
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,940 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Do you have stats for, or analysis on, this "fewer Europeans" claim, Declan? Would be interesting to see, and which nationalities in particular are moving home. I wonder have some moved on to Ireland or another EU state that isn't their own?
    A quick google...
    Even before Britain has left Europe, Europeans are leaving Britain. The latest figures confirm the trend: Since the 2016 Brexit referendum, net migration from European Union countries into the U.K. has been declining, while that from non-EU members has been climbing.

    But the most striking of the figures published last week are those showing that more central and eastern Europeans are leaving the U.K. than arriving for the first time since Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia and Slovenia all joined the EU in 2004.

    It’s not hard to guess why. A declining pound means the value of the earnings migrants send home to support their families is now much less than if they found jobs on the continent.

    And then there is the persistent sense of unwelcome, even xenophobia, and occasional violence, that many have experienced here since the Brexit vote. They got the message loud and clear: Foreigners go home.
    https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-03-04/east-european-migrants-are-leaving-u-k-and-hurting-the-economy


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    #1519
    declanflynn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭declanflynn


    After a hard brexit the British will in the fields picking fruit, to stop themselves going hungry


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    #1520
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    declanflynn wrote: »
    After a hard brexit the British will in the fields picking fruit, to stop themselves going hungry

    You really seemed to be filled with glee at the prospect of ordinary British people suffering at the hands of Brexit.


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    #1521
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    You really seemed to be filled with glee at the prospect of ordinary British people suffering at the hands of Brexit.

    Well they are the ones with the votes.


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    #1522
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    Since I found out the 2016 referendum was only 'advisory'I have never understood how brexiteers are getting away with their'the result must be respected'nonsense.

    The government said they would act on the result.


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    #1523
    Dytalus
    Registered Users Posts: 459 ✭✭Dytalus


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    The government said they would act on the result.

    Governments say, and promise, a great many things that they later renege on. It's not at all uncommon for politicians to make big promises ("No freedom of movement, but we'll remain in the Single Market") only to have to back down when they discover that enacting those promises is more difficult than they imagined ("There is no Single Market without FoM, no cherrypicking"). Especially during elections or to try and win votes.

    Without the legal backing of a proper referendum, this advisory referendum could easily be passed over with the statement of "What we originally promised during that vote is not feasible. We cannot, in good faith, continue to pursue the result."

    Yeah, they'd get hell for it. But it wouldn't be without precedent to do it.


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    #1524
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,359 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    The government said they would act on the result.

    What kind of Brexit did the 52% vote for?


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    #1525
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,973 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    The government said they would act on the result.

    They did. They negotiated a deal to leave, for a parliament that emphatically says it doesn't want to leave without one.

    We await that same parliament.


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    #1526
    declanflynn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭declanflynn


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    declanflynn wrote: »
    After a hard brexit the British will in the fields picking fruit, to stop themselves going hungry

    You really seemed to be filled with glee at the prospect of ordinary British people suffering at the hands of Brexit.
    I sure am, they voted for it and we cant ignore the will of the people now can we (well we can ignore 48% of the people but we can't ignore 52%)
    It's such entertainment old chap


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    #1527
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    So UK citizens wishing to travel for work or business in the EU (other than Ireland) will face a patchwork of restrictions and bureacratic requirements. This will apply equally to UK citizens living in the UK, to UK citizens living in Ireland and indeed to UK citizens living in other EU countries - a UK citizen resident in France, for example, can freely enter Germany but cannot work in Germany. He can freely enter Denmark, but cannot work there unless he obtains a Danish work permit. And if his Danish employer then wishes him to go and work in Norway, he'll need to obtain a Norwegian work permit. If the Danish employer wishes him to go and work in Germany, he can't.

    we interpreted the poster's statement differently. I took it "Travel a lot with their job" to mean people like myself and my colleagues (EU and non EU nationals alike) who travel around europe (eu and non eu) and indeed, the world, "With their job" and no visa is required. Every country i have been to determines attending meetings, signing contracts or whatever as not working and therefore free from visa or work permit requirements. even countries that do require visa entry, India for example, has a very specific Business Visa.

    For these people, there will be no change other than having to join the same queue as their American colleagues.

    I agree, if a service engineer or a consultant is sent from one country to another, to perform a value added task, then life will be much more complicated for them.


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    #1528
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    declanflynn wrote: »
    I sure am, they voted for it and we cant ignore the will of the people now can we (well we can ignore 48% of the people but we can't ignore 52%)
    It's such entertainment old chap

    I've friends and family over there who didn't vote to leave who are going to suffer the fallout from this. I don't particularly relish the prospect of their lives being made much harder when the economy tanks - Indeed I don't particularly relish seeing the ordinary Joe Soap that voted to leave getting shafted either. Maybe it's just not part of my make-up to find people struggling entertaining.

    The lads at the top of the heap who kickstarted this off are not going to suffer anything beyond bruised pride - they will be insulated from the fallout.

    I'm a midlands bogger so I'm not sure where you're going with the old chap nonsense.


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    #1529
    declanflynn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭declanflynn


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    declanflynn wrote: »
    I sure am, they voted for it and we cant ignore the will of the people now can we (well we can ignore 48% of the people but we can't ignore 52%)
    It's such entertainment old chap

    I've friends and family over there who didn't vote to leave who are going to suffer the fallout from this. I don't particularly relish the prospect of their lives being made much harder when the economy tanks - Indeed I don't particularly relish seeing the ordinary Joe Soap that voted to leave getting shafted either. Maybe it's just not part of my make-up to find people struggling entertaining.

    The lads at the top of the heap who kickstarted this off are not going to suffer anything beyond bruised pride - they will be insulated from the fallout.

    I'm a midlands bogger so I'm not sure where you're going with the old chap nonsense.
    Brexit isn't my fault


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    #1530
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    declanflynn wrote: »
    Brexit isn't my fault

    Where did I say it was.


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    #1531
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Dytalus wrote: »
    Governments say, and promise, a great many things that they later renege on. It's not at all uncommon for politicians to make big promises ("No freedom of movement, but we'll remain in the Single Market") only to have to back down when they discover that enacting those promises is more difficult than they imagined ("There is no Single Market without FoM, no cherrypicking"). Especially during elections or to try and win votes.

    Without the legal backing of a proper referendum, this advisory referendum could easily be passed over with the statement of "What we originally promised during that vote is not feasible. We cannot, in good faith, continue to pursue the result."

    Yeah, they'd get hell for it. But it wouldn't be without precedent to do it.

    The government promised a referendum, but it was parliament that passed the legislation for it, with only the SNP voting against it.

    Parliament agreed to the referendum, the wording and who could and could not vote, so it would have been parliament reneging on a promise, not the government, which would be unthinkable.

    As there is a lot of talk about the GFA and Brexit, it needs to be noted that any border poll would have to be handled the same way. A referendum can be held, but it would still be up to the government to draft the necessary legislation and support it through parliament, as it would again be "Advisory".

    No one would ever suggest that a border poll be ignored because the people didn't know what they were doing and parliament knows best.


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