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Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

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    #1472
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    declanflynn wrote: »
    If there is a hard border after no deal brexit does that mean we can stop the brits coming here?
    Our common travel area will still apply, meaning that Irish and British citizens have free visaless travel rights between the two countries. Any hard border will be goods only in reality. Even though Brexit was apparently mostly about stopping the free movement of people, it will be virtually impossible to conduct people checks at the border. And it's not something Ireland cares too much about.

    It does mean things will get weird for British citizens working in Ireland. Their process for getting PPSNs will be different. They'll need visas to go on business trips elsewhere in the EU, which will be complicated by the fact that they're a British citizen resident in the EU, but without a valid work visa for the EU. Visa waivers only stretch so far.

    Irish and EU citizens will be given preferential treatment over UK ones in job applications; it may potentially be a legal requirement that employers do so.


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    #1473
    declanflynn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭declanflynn


    seamus wrote: »
    declanflynn wrote: »
    If there is a hard border after no deal brexit does that mean we can stop the brits coming here?
    Our common travel area will still apply, meaning that Irish and British citizens have free visaless travel rights between the two countries. Any hard border will be goods only in reality. Even though Brexit was apparently mostly about stopping the free movement of people, it will be virtually impossible to conduct people checks at the border. And it's not something Ireland cares too much about.

    It does mean things will get weird for British citizens working in Ireland. Their process for getting PPSNs will be different. They'll need visas to go on business trips elsewhere in the EU, which will be complicated by the fact that they're a British citizen resident in the EU, but without a valid work visa for the EU. Visa waivers only stretch so far.

    Irish and EU citizens will be given preferential treatment over UK ones in job applications; it may potentially be a legal requirement that employers do so.
    Almost doesn't seem fair on the brits here, they can blame the muslim and the German


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    #1474
    SCOOP 64
    Registered Users Posts: 5,214 ✭✭✭SCOOP 64


    Suppose it will be the same in UK then, UK citizens will be given preferential treatment over Irish and EU ones in job applications.


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    #1475
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,092 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    seamus wrote: »
    . . . Irish and EU citizens will be given preferential treatment over UK ones in job applications; it may potentially be a legal requirement that employers do so.
    I don't think this is correct. The Employment Equality Act forbids discrimination on the ground of nationality. You can of course discriminate against a candidate on the grounds that he doesn't have the required visa and so can't take the job, but if he has, or doesn't need, a visa or work permit, then you can't discrminate against him on the grounds that he is a national of a non-member state.


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    #1476
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    seamus wrote: »
    Our common travel area will still apply, meaning that Irish and British citizens have free visaless travel rights between the two countries. Any hard border will be goods only in reality. Even though Brexit was apparently mostly about stopping the free movement of people, it will be virtually impossible to conduct people checks at the border. And it's not something Ireland cares too much about.

    It does mean things will get weird for British citizens working in Ireland. Their process for getting PPSNs will be different. They'll need visas to go on business trips elsewhere in the EU, which will be complicated by the fact that they're a British citizen resident in the EU, but without a valid work visa for the EU. Visa waivers only stretch so far.

    Irish and EU citizens will be given preferential treatment over UK ones in job applications; it may potentially be a legal requirement that employers do so.

    You are wrong on all three points there.


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    #1477
    Franz Von Peppercorn II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Yes and you need to deal with it like I said.






    Nobody said Britain leaving was the end of the EU. What has been said is that Britain leaving is the beginning of the end. It is not a baseless claim either. The EU are in a state of panic and denial.

    I doubt the EU is going to collapse because Britain left and her economy disintegrated.


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    #1478
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    It's hilarious mo dhuine there going on about the EU being on the verge of collapse - "the beginning of the end" - when the UK is so obviously the political entity that is in that very position.


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    #1479
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,941 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Aegir wrote: »
    You are wrong on all three points there.
    Care to elaborate on why you believe this to be the case?


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    #1480
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I don't think this is correct. The Employment Equality Act forbids discrimination on the ground of nationality. You can of course discriminate against a candidate on the grounds that he doesn't have the required visa and so can't take the job, but if he has, or doesn't need, a visa or work permit, then you can't discrminate against him on the grounds that he is a national of a non-member state.
    Sure, that's really what I meant.

    However, we haven't actually been in this situation before.

    Employers (well, the Irish state really) are required to ensure that EU citizens are treated more favourably than non-EU citizens in terms of work. That is, they are entitled to the same work opportunities as an Irish person.

    If Ireland was to extend the same entitlement to citizens of the CTA, then the EU might - quite reasonably - complain that EU citizens are being placed at a disadvantage and insist that non-EU citizens availing of the CTA must apply for work permits - placing them lower in preference.

    The Withdrawal Agreement protects the CTA so this is not an issue. But in the event of a no-deal Brexit, it's all up in the air.
    Irish and UK law has been written to protect the CTA in this case, but the EU is under no obligation to recognise the CTA if the UK leaves without any agreement.


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    #1481
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    Care to elaborate on why you believe this to be the case?

    because there will be no change to the PPSN process, no requirement for UK passport holders to get business visas when travelling to the eu and they will not be actively discriminated against when applying for jobs.

    Unless you, or the poster who made the claims, can demonstrate otherwise.


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    #1482
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Aegir wrote: »
    because there will be no change to the PPSN process,
    You're probably right there, I was thinking more of the employment process.
    no requirement for UK passport holders to get business visas when travelling to the eu and they will not be actively discriminated against when applying for jobs.
    You can't know either of these things. As I mention above, no deal throws everything into disarray. The EU will not be obliged to honour the CTA or allow UK citizens to travel without visas.

    Like I say, visa waiver programmes only go so far. If a UK citizens travels a lot in the EU as part of their job, no-deal will leave them in limbo. Living in Ireland under the CTA will complicate EU travel further because they won't have a residency permit for Ireland, and they won't be resident in the UK. And Visa applications usually prefer that applicants have been living legally.


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    #1483
    careless sherpa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 373 ✭✭careless sherpa


    Aegir wrote: »
    because there will be no change to the PPSN process, no requirement for UK passport holders to get business visas when travelling to the eu and they will not be actively discriminated against when applying for jobs.

    Unless you, or the poster who made the claims, can demonstrate otherwise.

    In the event of a no deal Brexit I assume everything is up in the air and then the status of British nationals in EU countries would have to be determined. The way the British government has gone about the negotiations so far would not fill one with confidence


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    #1484
    Dytalus
    Registered Users Posts: 459 ✭✭Dytalus


    seamus wrote: »
    You're probably right there, I was thinking more of the employment process.
    You can't know either of these things. As I mention above, no deal throws everything into disarray. The EU will not be obliged to honour the CTA or allow UK citizens to travel without visas.

    Like I say, visa waiver programmes only go so far. If a UK citizens travels a lot in the EU as part of their job, no-deal will leave them in limbo. Living in Ireland under the CTA will complicate EU travel further because they won't have a residency permit for Ireland, and they won't be resident in the UK. And Visa applications usually prefer that applicants have been living legally.

    To note, the EU has written a law allowing visa free access to UK passport holders for short trips (up to 90 days in any 180 day period, I think). This is predicated on the UK reciprocating for EU citizens. If they fail to do so, then yes - UK passport holders will need visas to travel into the EU prior to a visa waiver program coming in (the EU has visa free travel for some countries already, so it's not like it won't happen - it would just need to be negotiated which would take time).


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    #1485
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    seamus wrote: »
    You're probably right there, I was thinking more of the employment process.
    You can't know either of these things. As I mention above, no deal throws everything into disarray. The EU will not be obliged to honour the CTA or allow UK citizens to travel without visas.

    Like I say, visa waiver programmes only go so far. If a UK citizens travels a lot in the EU as part of their job, no-deal will leave them in limbo. Living in Ireland under the CTA will complicate EU travel further because they won't have a residency permit for Ireland, and they won't be resident in the UK. And Visa applications usually prefer that applicants have been living legally.

    the CTA is completely independent of the EU and has already been acknowledged as such. British citizens in Ireland and Irish citizens in the UK will continue to have the same rights as they do today, regardless of how hard or soft Brexit is.

    Unless you have seen something I haven't, neither the UK or the EU has mentioned Visas being required for travel in either jurisdiction.


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    #1486
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Well, this is getting interesting. So John Bolton came out today to declare that "there would be enthusiastic bipartisan support in Congress for speedy ratification at each stage" of a US-UK trade deal.

    Nancy Pelosi, Speaker of the US House of Representatives, came straight out to knock that claim on the head, reiterating that the US Congress will indeed veto any deal with the UK which undermines the GFA. If the Democrats' battle with Trump starts to revolve around the Irish aspect of Brexit, there is absolutely no way that Trump will be able to support Johnson against the power of all the other US interests which prioritise their relationships with the rest of the EU over Britain. This is particularly so given the key positions held by prominent Irish-Americans such as Richard Neal, Chair of the House ways and means committee, which has the power to hold up a trade deal indefinitely:

    Pelosi: No UK trade deal if Brexit undermines Good Friday accord

    Brexit: No chance of US trade deal if Irish accord hit - Pelosi
    A US-UK trade deal will not get through Congress if Brexit undermines the Good Friday Agreement, the Speaker of the US House of Representatives has said.

    Democrat Nancy Pelosi, whose party controls the House, said the UK's exit from the EU could not be allowed to endanger the Irish peace deal.

    Her comments came after the US national security adviser said the UK would be "first in line" for a trade deal.

    John Bolton spoke after meeting Prime Minister Boris Johnson in London...


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    #1487
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Who gets to decide if Brexit undermines peace in the north, the US Senate, the Eu, the Irish government or some brainwashed kid from the Bogside?


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    #1488
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,286 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Aegir wrote: »
    Who gets to decide if Brexit undermines peace in the north, the US Senate, the Eu, the Irish government or some brainwashed kid from the Bogside?

    You having a bad day? Your posts are very crabby.


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    #1489
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,977 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Aegir wrote: »
    Who gets to decide if Brexit undermines peace in the north, the US Senate, the Eu, the Irish government or some brainwashed kid from the Bogside?

    I give up. Who does?


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    #1490
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    lawred2 wrote: »
    You having a bad day? Your posts are very crabby.

    It is a relevant question.

    It seems as if tensions in Derry are simmering at the moment. Do statements like this give the idiots some form of legitimacy to try and kick the whole thing off again?


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    #1491
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Aegir wrote: »
    Who gets to decide if Brexit undermines peace in the north

    Britain.


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    #1492
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    Britain.

    I doubt the US Congress will accept what Britain says about it without question. Would you?


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    #1493
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 33,053 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Anyone watched The Great Hack on Netflix?

    Seen it last night, lot about Cambridge Analytica and their role on helping the Leave.EU campaign.

    It's pretty shocking stuff.
    Appears they had been doing trial runs for many years in places like Romania, The Caribbean etc, before their masterpieces, getting Brexit and Trump through.


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    #1494
    InTheShadows
    Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭InTheShadows


    NIMAN wrote: »
    Anyone watched The Great Hack on Netflix?

    Seen it last night, lot about Cambridge Analytica and their role on helping the Leave.EU campaign.

    It's pretty shocking stuff.
    Appears they had been doing trial runs for many years in places like Romania, The Caribbean etc, before their masterpieces, getting Brexit and Trump through.
    Watched about 30 mins and turned off. Liberal propaganda documentary.


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    #1495
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    First Up wrote: »
    I doubt the US Congress will accept what Britain says about it without question. Would you?

    Britain can still crash out with all the problems it will pose for us.


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    #1496
    InTheShadows
    Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭InTheShadows


    declanflynn wrote: »
    Ireland will be fine without britian, the EU will be fine without britian, who cares what happens the brits they are known the world over as a shower of mankers (w)

    Horrible comment. I've plenty of British friends and they are anything but the names you called them.


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    #1497
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,977 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Aegir wrote: »
    It is a relevant question.

    It seems as if tensions in Derry are simmering at the moment. Do statements like this give the idiots some form of legitimacy to try and kick the whole thing off again?

    You say that as if you believe Britain had nothing to do with it 'kicking' off in the first place.


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    #1498
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    NIMAN wrote: »
    Anyone watched The Great Hack on Netflix?

    Seen it last night, lot about Cambridge Analytica and their role on helping the Leave.EU campaign.

    It's pretty shocking stuff.
    Appears they had been doing trial runs for many years in places like Romania, The Caribbean etc, before their masterpieces, getting Brexit and Trump through.

    Saw it the other night. That Carole Cadwalladr journalist who is in it gave a great TED talk about Brexit and Cambridge etc that's worth watching:

    Facebook's role in Brexit and the threat to democracy


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    #1499
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    Britain can still crash out with all the problems it will pose for us.

    Indeed it can but the US Congress doesn't have a say in that.


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    #1500
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    Britain can still crash out with all the problems it will pose for us.

    The longer this drags on and the body blows Johnson and his cronies are taking(wafer thin majority,US rumblings of discontent over the GFA ,EU standing firm etc)I`d put money on the UK ending up revoking article 50.


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    #1501
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    The longer this drags on and the body blows Johnson and his cronies are taking(wafer thin majority,US rumblings of discontent over the GFA ,EU standing firm etc)I`d put money on the UK ending up revoking article 50.

    There's a Disney-ending part of me that hopes that the fuckers who assured the British public that Brexit would be a total cakewalk would all get together and hold a press conference and just say 'We're sorry, we totally underestimated Britain's relative strength and we messed up badly'. Then a groundswell gets behind revoking A50 and forgetting the whole thing happened.

    But no, I think not.


This discussion has been closed.
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