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Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

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Comments

  • #7952
    lufties
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭lufties


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    You do control your own trade policies. The UK have a very strong voice in the EU. Since they agreed to the multiple trade deals one must assume they agreed to them. The PMs voted for democratically.

    But ok, what parts of those trade deals would you change?

    Immigration is in the hands of the UK. For you know about Belgium EU policy?

    And that only deals with EU countries. The rest of the world is even more controlled. Yet TM stood atop the wind gate Scandal.

    Fisheries. What would you change? You got access to massive continental markets . The UK has recently signed a trade deal with Faroe Islands allowing them access to UK waters. Not exactly a promising start.

    UK media? So I take it the Telegraph, Sun, Express etc. are no classified as foreign media or something.

    These generalities are great for throwing around in a pub debate, but 3 years after the vote this is all you've got? Nothing of substance or even based on reality.

    PMs not voted for democratically, like in Ireland varadkar was not voted in by the public.

    Immigration? The EU proposed fines for countries not taking their 'fair share' or so called refugees.

    EU nation waters are centrally controlled by the EU. Individual nations dont have a say. Hence the influx of Spanish trawlers in Irish waters. I'd give individual control of their surrounding waters.

    Not sure about faroe islands, but it's hardly a super power now is it?

    UK media foreign? What are you on about? I said the UK, and Irish media are pro EU, bar the telegraph. The red tops are just provocative on both sides. Express is not pro Brexit.

    In Ireland, RTE, the times, independent, the journal, examiner, business post, all pro EU publications, (or rags).


  • #7953
    seraphimvc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,358 ✭✭✭seraphimvc


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Yes and they receive far higher range and standard of services because of it and thus have to pay out of pocket for less of these services than for example those of us in the UK or Ireland do

    In your job specifically, across the board this is simply untrue they are around the EU average in net take home pay so this is subjectively a completely incorrect statement

    Exactly! Thanks VinLieger, i couldn't say more than what you have said there.

    I have done calculations myself for my job, if i were to receive the same salary i have now in Ireland, i will get about 300euro pay cut each month if i were to move to germany - but damn, the (real) social benefits i would receive there will be significantly more than what i get in Ireland.

    The point is that there is a trade off for how things done in different countries. What Lufties say thus far seems very superficial and lack of understanding of the rationales behind regulations/systems in different countries.


  • #7954
    dresden8
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    lufties wrote: »
    PMs not voted for democratically, like in Ireland varadkar was not voted in by the public.

    In which general election was Boris voted PM?


  • #7955
    declanflynn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭declanflynn


    brickster69 wrote: »
    declanflynn wrote: »
    The backstop was the uks idea mate!

    Backstop originally was an EU idea for keeping NI in a customs Union. Then it was requested by May to be UK wide as it would break the GFA if Northern Ireland was treated differently.

    Don't hear much about that one do we ?
    The backstop in its present form is the uks idea mate


  • #7956
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 42,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    lufties wrote: »
    PMs not voted for democratically, like in Ireland varadkar was not voted in by the public.
    Varadkar was voted in by the electorate. However, like most parliaments, the Prime Minister is chosen by the governing party.
    As for the less than democratic UK, who voted for their head of state? Who voted for the members within the House of Lords?
    lufties wrote: »
    Immigration? The EU proposed fines for countries not taking their 'fair share' or so called refugees.
    So its bog standard xenophobia then?
    lufties wrote: »
    EU nation waters are centrally controlled by the EU. Individual nations dont have a say. Hence the influx of Spanish trawlers in Irish waters. I'd give individual control of their surrounding waters.
    ...so there are no rules whatsoever about fishing in local waters and no arrests for any illegal fishing?
    I must have misread the news over the years.
    lufties wrote: »
    Not sure about faroe islands, but it's hardly a super power now is it?
    ...and yet the Faroese walked away with a good deal and the UK got the crumbs?
    Well done!


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  • #7957
    Valhallapt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,226 ✭✭✭Valhallapt


    Great thread, but one or two posters are relentlessly trolling, the thread would be better server if they were starved of oxygen


  • #7958
    fash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭fash


    lufties wrote: »
    Having control of your own trade policies.
    When it leaves, the UK's trade policies will be controlled by either the EU or the US. It only had control as a member of the EU.
    If Ireland left the EU then either its trade policy would be controlled by the EU - or worse the evil Brits.
    Immigration policies (not the mass unfiltered type that you lot love).
    This is controlled by the states - remember the UK invited in citizens from the +10 EU member states. Which the UK in order to steal healthy young workers from Eastern European countries to serve its own fiendish purposes.

    Furthermore now almost all and even in 2016 66% of immigration are those under UK is from outside of the EU - Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria etc - and was always entirely within UK control. They like to keep quiet about that however.




    Control of fisheries (which is EU controlled).
    Ultimately to not be dictated to by people from a foreign land.
    That is precisely what happens when you brexit - controlled by Russian propaganda and tax exiles. The UK's trade and laws dictated by the US - or EU.

    Imagine if Ireland had not joined and we would have to comply with the British "know your place" and "let's starve the Irish until they comply" statements.

    There is power in being in a group.
    Brexit all the way.
    Assuming you are an Irish nationalist, there is certainly a schadenfreude in seeing the ignominious final collapse of the evil empire. Enjoy your time at laugh at some Brits on our behalf.


  • #7959
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    lufties wrote: »
    Professionally trained workers rummaging through workplace bins is unacceptable I dont care what you say.

    A couple I lived next door to in Cologne agreed with the anti EU sentiment. Their standard of living has dropped significantly over the last 50 years.

    Anyone throwing recyclables into the general trash for landfill is unacceptable, regardless of your level of education. Just because someone is taking stuff to be recycled and claim a deposit doesn't mean they are skint.


  • #7960
    lufties
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭lufties


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Yes and they receive far higher range and standard of services because of it and thus have to pay out of pocket for less of these services than for example those of us in the UK or Ireland do






    In your job specifically, across the board this is simply untrue they are around the EU average in net take home pay so this is subjectively a completely incorrect statement

    What benefits exactly? Health cover? Yes, up to a point. The same as the NHS in the UK, which is also covered by taxation. Your sound goes further in the UK also.

    Average income the same across the EU? Oh so that's why there's no Polish, Lithuanians and Romanians in Ireland. Average salary in Romania is 600 euro, having spent a few months there I can can tell you it's not cheap to live.

    In my job, if you survey legacy airlines across several developed EU nations, you'll find that Germany is one of the low payers. It is generally accepted that Germany is a low wage economy.


  • #7961
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,973 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    lufties wrote: »
    PMs not voted for democratically, like in Ireland varadkar was not voted in by the public.


    You mean like Boris? Also pretty sure the vast vast majority of trade deals the EU has negotiated have been agree on by democratically elected PM's unless you are suggesting Boris and Gordon Brown have been responsible for agreeing to 100% of EU trade agreements on the UK's behalf?

    lufties wrote: »
    Not sure about faroe islands, but it's hardly a super power now is it?


    Its one of these brilliant new brexit trade deals that the UK has given the faroe islands a deal to continue the exact same access to their fisheries for..... objectively nothing.

    lufties wrote: »
    UK media foreign? What are you on about? I said the UK, and Irish media are pro EU, bar the telegraph. The red tops are just provocative on both sides. Express is not pro Brexit.


    Hahahahahaha the "express isn't pro-brexit", best thing ive heard in a while.

    lufties wrote: »
    In Ireland, RTE, the times, independent, the journal, examiner, business post, all pro EU publications, (or rags).


    So what? every poll suggests 90% approval rating of the EU, the majority of our media simply reflects this, not every opinion deserves a 50/50 balance if that's what you are suggesting? Maybe they are pro-europe because irexit is objectively a completely retarded illogical idea?


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  • #7962
    lufties
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭lufties


    dresden8 wrote: »
    In which general election was Boris voted PM?

    I was agreeing with the previous poster that the British PM was elected the same as the Irish PM. I.E not by the public.


  • #7963
    PeadarCo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    First Up wrote:
    The EU's trade within itself involves goods crossing between member countries for processing, packaging, distribution and eventual consumption across the whole EU market. It is about efficiencies, not customs revenue.

    First Up wrote:
    I don't know how many more times this has to be explained. The Single Market is NOT JUST ABOUT TARIFFS. It is about allowing fast moving supply chains that build specialisation and reduce costs.

    The key to both is regulations. Tarrifs could be reduced to 0 but if regulations are different you still need border controls. Different regulations and certification bodies can hobble trade just as much if not more than Tarrifs.

    The whole point of the single market is to align regulations. The UK will presumably diverge from EU regulations in the long term. Anything else defeats the purpose of leaving the EU. If the UK leaves it will leave all the various EU regulatory bodies and have to set up its own versions.


  • #7964
    Imreoir2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    brickster69 wrote: »
    Backstop originally was an EU idea for keeping NI in a customs Union. Then it was requested by May to be UK wide as it would break the GFA if Northern Ireland was treated differently.

    Don't hear much about that one do we ?

    It does not "break the GFA if Northern Ireland was treated differently", there is nothing in the GFA that requires NI to be treated exactly the same as the rest of the UK. The fact is that NI is already treated diferently to the rest of the UK becasue of the GFA. The rest of the UK does not have North/South bodies in opperation, the rest of the UK does not have power-shareing, not to mention the obvious examples of Abortion and and Gay Marriage.

    The idea that the backstop causes a problem to the principle of concent is a nonsence. They only thing the principle of concent in the GFA applies to is a border poll. The atempt to apply it to the backstop is nothing more than a baseless Unionist talking point, you wont hear serious commentators talking about it becasue it is rubbish.


  • #7965
    lufties
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭lufties


    Valhallapt wrote: »
    Great thread, but one or two posters are relentlessly trolling, the thread would be better server if they were starved of oxygen

    So a troll is someone with a differing opinion. Would you prefer an echo chamber?


  • #7966
    briany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,048 ✭✭✭✭briany


    gimli2112 wrote: »
    The problem is if things get worse after a crash out which let's face it they will, it will be the EU's fault for causing it.

    And they would be technically correct. Technically correct in the sense that if you trip over a man-made object, your injuries are the fault of the person who put it there, rather than your own for not looking where you were going or refusing to alter your course.


  • #7967
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,516 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    lufties wrote: »
    Having control of your own trade policies.
    You've yet to state what part of the trade policy you wish to change.
    Immigration policies (not the mass unfiltered type that you lot love).
    Always under UK control for non EU immigration and enforceable for EU immigration as well but UK refused to enforce either. That is hardly EU's fault that your politicians are to lazy to do it now is it?
    Control of fisheries (which is EU controlled). Ultimately to not be dictated to by people from a foreign land.
    You mean like how UK gave up to Fareo Islands on import? Or the simple fact you're not going to be in control after leaving because you'll not be allowed to export any fish to EU (if you don't allow EU to agree the quotas which once again you'd know if you had actually bothered to learn about EU)? But hey; I'm sure your fishermen will be happy that you're back in control when they can't sell any fish they actually catch; that will work out great for them (hint; UK exports over 80% of all fish it catches to EU).
    The UK media loves the EU, what are you on about? Aswell as RTE, and the rest of the biased media.
    Here's a list of some 700 of the UK media lies over 15 years; feel free to list 10 lies in favour of EU in Irish media.
    Brexit all the way.
    And I wish you the hardest brexit possible only don't come back here complaining about EU bullying etc. when you can't get radioactive material etc. for hospitals et al.


  • #7968
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 42,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    lufties wrote: »
    So a troll is someone with a differing opinion. Would you prefer an echo chamber?
    Someone who is able to offer a fact based view will be taken seriously whereas someone who posts hyperbole and populist soundbite nonsense won't be taken seriously.
    I for one would love to read your views but only if they can be taken seriously. This isn't After Hours after all!


  • #7969
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    briany wrote: »
    And they would be technically correct. Technically correct in the sense that if you trip over a man-made object, your injuries are the fault of the person who put it there, rather than your own for not looking where you were going or refusing to alter your course.

    Not if there was a big sign and barriers around that object saying "don't go here, you'll trip up and hurt yourself". If you insist on pulling down the sign, climbing over the barriers and hurling yourself at the object that that is entirely your own fault.


  • #7970
    lufties
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭lufties


    VinLieger wrote: »
    You mean like Boris? Also pretty sure the vast vast majority of trade deals the EU has negotiated have been agree on by democratically elected PM's unless you are suggesting Boris and Gordon Brown have been responsible for agreeing to 100% of EU trade agreements on the UK's behalf?







    Its one of these brilliant new brexit trade deals that the UK has given the faroe islands a deal to continue the exact same access to their fisheries for..... objectively nothing.





    Hahahahahaha the "express isn't pro-brexit", best thing ive heard in a while.





    So what? every poll suggests 90% approval rating of the EU, the majority of our media simply reflects this, not every opinion deserves a 50/50 balance if that's what you are suggesting? Maybe they are pro-europe because irexit is objectively a completely retarded illogical idea?

    Perhaps it's just relentless brainwashing and propaganda by the Irish establishment. What poll was done? Youd think by now you'd learn not to trust polls. EG Trump and Brexit lol.


  • #7971
    golfball37
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,043 ✭✭✭golfball37


    3 years on and it still boils down to resentment in Ireland and the Eu for the UK having the temerity to upset their little world domination project by seeking to go it alone. For it to be this difficult to leave a so called trade organisation should set off alarms, or failing that at the very least sensible debate. The groupthink in Ireland is staggering towards the British people wishing to assert their democratic right to Independence. Leo overplayed his hand here and I wish it would be called out by some at home instead of the cheerleading.


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  • #7972
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,857 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    We have a report function. Please do not accuse people of trolling on thread.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #7973
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 42,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    lufties wrote: »
    So a troll is someone with a differing opinion. Would you prefer an echo chamber?
    Someone who is able to offer a fact based view rather than hyperbole and populist soundbite nonsense won't be taken seriously.
    I for one would love to read your views but only if they can be taken seriously. This isn't After Hours after all!
    ...and straight away you post this...
    lufties wrote: »
    Perhaps it's just relentless brainwashing and propaganda by the Irish establishment. What poll was done? Youd think by now you'd learn not to trust polls. EG Trump and Brexit lol.
    mod: Please provide more substantive posts or I will delete them and possibly threadban you.


  • #7974
    Enzokk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,988 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    trellheim wrote: »
    Edit : the only better Brexit reporter than Faisal Islam is Tony Connelly and its a huge gulf after those two even though Faisal's gone from the Brexit beat to BBC Economics editor (same thing, says you )

    PS I like Tom Newton Dunn even though its the Sun . he's not shy

    I think Faisal is being lined up to replace Laura Kuennsberg as political editor. At least I hope that is the plan eventually. His reporting is a lot better than hers at present and you would hope there would be more facts and less drama reported on from the BBC while he is there.

    brickster69 wrote: »
    Backstop originally was an EU idea for keeping NI in a customs Union. Then it was requested by May to be UK wide as it would break the GFA if Northern Ireland was treated differently.

    Don't hear much about that one do we ?


    What don't we hear about? How NI has to be aligned to the UK? Is that why they are only now possibly getting equality with regards to marriage and abortion? Don't hear enough about that one, do we? Is that not treating NI differently to the rest of the UK?


  • #7975
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,516 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    golfball37 wrote: »
    3 years on and it still boils down to resentment in Ireland and the Eu for the UK having the temerity to upset their little world domination project by seeking to go it alone. For it to be this difficult to leave a so called trade organisation should set off alarms, or failing that at the very least sensible debate. The groupthink in Ireland is staggering towards the British people wishing to assert their democratic right to Independence. Leo overplayed his hand here and I wish it would be called out by some at home instead of the cheerleading.
    UK could have left the day after handing in the A50 letter and they can leave tomorrow if they so desire; EU are not stopping them. However and this is the part all our lovely Brexiteers keep glossing over is that UK don't want to leave without a deal because of how hard the economical hit will be; that's what the whole point has been of the last 2.5 years after all. So how about you start blaming the relevant parties for a change; UK leaving is UK's decision and the timing of leaving is UK's choice and any consequences of leaving is UK's responsibility inc. any economical hit, civil unrest or violence in NI because it's all based on a UK decision. No one in EU can in any way force UK to stay; that's UK choice to keep extending the talks etc.

    Now if you insist a deal is required that's a whole separate ball game and as you want UK to "go it's own way" then you can't blame EU for protecting it's interests doing the same in a deal making now can you?


  • #7976
    First Up
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    PeadarCo wrote:
    The whole point of the single market is to align regulations. The UK will presumably diverge from EU regulations in the long term. Anything else defeats the purpose of leaving the EU. If the UK leaves it will leave all the various EU regulatory bodies and have to set up its own versions.


    Even before any divergence, once the UK is importing items that do not conform to EU standards, everything will be checked at the frontier of the SM.


  • #7977
    Christy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,106 ✭✭✭Christy42


    golfball37 wrote: »
    3 years on and it still boils down to resentment in Ireland and the Eu for the UK having the temerity to upset their little world domination project by seeking to go it alone. For it to be this difficult to leave a so called trade organisation should set off alarms, or failing that at the very least sensible debate. The groupthink in Ireland is staggering towards the British people wishing to assert their democratic right to Independence. Leo overplayed his hand here and I wish it would be called out by some at home instead of the cheerleading.

    Difficult. The UK has begged to stay in. They could have left in March. That they are still in is their own fault.

    You feel like leaving every single trade deal the country has should be easy? They were negotiated to make things better. If you then remove the thing that made your life better it will hurt you. Added to this the UK made promises to a region recently that staying in the UK meant staying in the EU and has a peace treaty that stopped violence in another region be largely dependent on those trade deals continuing. Obviously both of those (note: the EU was involved in neither of those cases and were signed up to by the UK knowing full well what was being promised at the time).

    Furthermore a lot of the difficulty is in the UK's lack of preparedness. It had and seems to have no clue on how to operate negotiations. If it thought a sweet deal was waiting in the US it would have left in March. Instead the regime there knows the UK has put itself over a barrel and is more than happy to take advantage e if it can.


  • #7978
    brickster69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,277 ✭✭✭brickster69


    It just keeps getting better.

    City of London has hit record highs in the trading of Chinese currency

    Up 45% on last year to £74 Billion / day

    https://news.cityoflondon.gov.uk/london-retains-its-rmb-crown-in-face-of-brexit-uncertainty/

    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • #7979
    Oafley Jones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,545 ✭✭✭Oafley Jones


    brickster69 wrote: »
    It just keeps getting better.

    City of London has hit record highs in the trading of Chinese currency

    Up 45% on last year to £74 Billion / day

    https://news.cityoflondon.gov.uk/london-retains-its-rmb-crown-in-face-of-brexit-uncertainty/

    What do you think that means?


  • #7980
    Imreoir2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    lufties wrote: »
    A couple I lived next door to in Cologne agreed with the anti EU sentiment. Their standard of living has dropped significantly over the last 50 years.

    Why didn't you say? A couple of people in Cologne don't like the EU, well that is all the proof we ever needed that you are right and objective reality is wrong /s
    :D


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  • #7981
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,857 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Lufties has been banned for being uncivil and ignoring mod warnings.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



This discussion has been closed.
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