Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

lawred2 · 06-08-2019 10:47AM

lufties wrote: »

Being able to make your own laws and policies and borders, and not be dictated to by unelected dictators who worship marxist ideology.

Who do you refer to? And what evidence do you have of such marxist ideology?

lufties wrote: »

I'm Irish and living in England. Life is better here for me as there is more opportunities, diversity of thought, and salaries are better (in my industry). Ireland is being used as a weapon by the EU, and in my opinion Varadkar couldn't give a monkeys about Ireland. SNIP. No insults please.

Yes this happens - salaries vary between countries. What's that supposed to be evidence of exactly?

lufties wrote: »

The UK has great potential outside the EU, Ireland will be left behind as the EU lap dog. I've lived in Germany, and trust me they are ruthless. Germany is a cold, soulless place where wages are terrible. I've seen co workers search through bins to get plastic bottles to exchange. People are on the bread line there. The elites in Brussels want a new age, sophisticated version of communism. No thanks.

?

lufties wrote: »

Regarding the border, Estonia and Russia have a flourishing electronic border. In the scheme of things it is a small issue. However, the dictators in Brussels use it for political gain.

There are a whopping 7 border crossings between Estonia and Russia.

Can you go into detail as to what aspects of the border are flourishing?

Russman · 06-08-2019 10:47AM

lufties wrote: »

Being able to make your own laws and policies and borders, and not be dictated to by unelected dictators who worship marxist ideology.

I'm Irish and living in England. Life is better here for me as there is more opportunities, diversity of thought, and salaries are better (in my industry). Ireland is being used as a weapon by the EU, and in my opinion Varadkar couldn't give a monkeys about Ireland. SNIP. No insults please.

The UK has great potential outside the EU, Ireland will be left behind as the EU lap dog. I've lived in Germany, and trust me they are ruthless. Germany is a cold, soulless place where wages are terrible. I've seen co workers search through bins to get plastic bottles to exchange. People are on the bread line there. The elites in Brussels want a new age, sophisticated version of communism. No thanks.

Regarding the border, Estonia and Russia have a flourishing electronic border. In the scheme of things it is a small issue. However, the dictators in Brussels use it for political gain.

So what laws, policies or borders would you change then ?
Unelected dictators, Marxist ideology, new age communism - seriously ??

You realise that Ireland isn't being used by the EU, Ireland IS the EU ?

lufties · 06-08-2019 10:48AM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Which laws are holding the UK back?

All the good things in the UK you speak of,despite them being under the yoke of the EU? How did that happen?

The rest of you post is irrational, lazy racially driven nonsense. Have you been in the Bogside? Parts of Glasgow? Both parts of the UK yet almost destitute in parts. Does that mean the UK is a 3rd world country?

Trade policies, border laws, fisheries, the money the UK contributes to the EU monstrosity. What started as a trading block is now an abomination. What part exactly of what I said is nonsense? What is nonsense is Ireland sheepishly following what the media a ramming down them.
What are you on about 3rd world? Your comment is reactionary emotive tripe.

ancapailldorcha · 06-08-2019 10:49AM

lufties wrote: »

Your comment is reactionary emotive tripe.

This sort of posting is not acceptable here. No more please.

KildareP · 06-08-2019 10:52AM

lufties wrote: »

Trade policies, border laws, fisheries, the money the UK contributes to the EU monstrosity. What started as a trading block is now an abomination. What part exactly of what I said is nonsense? What is nonsense is Ireland sheepishly following what the media a ramming down them.
What are you on about 3rd world? Your comment is reactionary emotive tripe.

An abomination the UK nonetheless wants to keep all the upsides and benefits of, just without any of the downsides or contributions.

lufties · 06-08-2019 10:52AM

Russman wrote: »

So what laws, policies or borders would you change then ?
Unelected dictators, Marxist ideology, new age communism - seriously ??

You realise that Ireland isn't being used by the EU, Ireland IS the EU ?

Yes marxist ideology. Look up how they worshipped karl Marx last year in Brussels parliament. Also look up Marxism and the Frankfurt school. Educate yourself Ffs, and stop being such a sheep.

Ireland is being used by the EU dictats in Brussels. But shur arrah arent big Phil et all fighting our cause, lol.

robinph · 06-08-2019 10:53AM

lufties wrote: »

I've seen co workers search through bins to get plastic bottles to exchange.

If I saw colleagues throwing plastic bottles in the general waste and there was a deposit scheme running on them where all it took for sending them to recycling rather than landfill was me digging them out of the bin and adding them to my pile of things I was taking to claim a deposit back on, then I'd do the same regardless of if I needed those extra few cents to buy a tin of beans or not.

Just because someone chooses to recycle their plastic and claim a deposit back doesn't mean they are on the breadline, maybe they just care about things being recycled.

lufties · 06-08-2019 10:55AM

KildareP wrote: »

An abomination the UK nonetheless wants to keep all the upsides and benefits of, just without any of the downsides or contributions.

Enlighten me on what you refer to exactly

FrancieBrady · 06-08-2019 10:56AM

lufties wrote: »

Trade policies, border laws, fisheries, the money the UK contributes to the EU monstrosity. What started as a trading block is now an abomination. What part exactly of what I said is nonsense? What is nonsense is Ireland sheepishly following what the media a ramming down them.
What are you on about 3rd world? Your comment is reactionary emotive tripe.

And comments such as:

Varadkar couldn't give a monkeys about Ireland. He is a narcissist that puts EU before everything. Combine this with media brainwashing.

People are on the bread line there.

However, the dictators in Brussels use it for political gain

aren't 'emotive'?

:D

brickster69 · 06-08-2019 10:58AM

lufties wrote: »

Trade policies, border laws, fisheries, the money the UK contributes to the EU monstrosity. What started as a trading block is now an abomination. What part exactly of what I said is nonsense? What is nonsense is Ireland sheepishly following what the media a ramming down them.
What are you on about 3rd world? Your comment is reactionary emotive tripe.

I know it is not a big one but it actually says that if a MEP is found guilty of a crime he cannot be convicted in the UK.

Work that one out.

Nody · 06-08-2019 10:59AM

lufties wrote: »

Trade policies, border laws, fisheries, the money the UK contributes to the EU monstrosity.

Specify; all you've done is list areas. What exactly are wrong with the trade policies, fisheries etc.?

What started as a trading block is now an abomination.

It was always more than a trading block from it's inception; that you missed that only shows your lack of knowledge.

What part exactly of what I said is nonsense?

You mean the beyond only making emotional non fact based statement without any proof or links to back them up? You know; basic requirements such as actually backing up your stated "facts" with actual factual links as required in a debate even though Brexiteers are notoriously bad at it.

What is nonsense is Ireland sheepishly following what the media a ramming down them.

If you said UK it would be true; UK media has a very long and well documented list of blatant lies including your current PM admitting that he made **** up to get people outraged at EU.

lufties · 06-08-2019 10:59AM

robinph wrote: »

If I saw colleagues throwing plastic bottles in the general waste and there was a deposit scheme running on them where all it took for sending them to recycling rather than landfill was me digging them out of the bin and adding them to my pile of things I was taking to claim a deposit back on, then I'd do the same regardless of if I needed those extra few cents to buy a tin of beans or not.

Just because someone chooses to recycle their plastic and claim a deposit back doesn't mean they are on the breadline, maybe they just care about things being recycled.

Professionally trained workers rummaging through workplace bins is unacceptable I dont care what you say.

A couple I lived next door to in Cologne agreed with the anti EU sentiment. Their standard of living has dropped significantly over the last 50 years.

lufties · 06-08-2019 11:01AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And comments such as:

aren't 'emotive'? :D

No, they are factual comments for people with an ounce of insight and logical thinking.

Seth Brundle · 06-08-2019 11:02AM

brickster69 wrote: »

Backstop originally was an EU idea for keeping NI in a customs Union. Then it was requested by May to be UK wide as it would break the GFA if Northern Ireland was treated differently.

Don't hear much about that one do we ?

I don't believe that is correct.
The GFA requires that the people and trade in NI can continue to flow as it does now and that there are no restrictions.
Having NI remain within both the CU and SM means that it can continue on this road.

However, this meant that NI would be different to Britain which the DUP (who oppose the peace and equality measures within the GFA) were not happy with NI having different (albeit better) trading arrangements to Britain so May sought a whole UK customs union.

Chips Lovell · 06-08-2019 11:02AM

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DOCARCH · 06-08-2019 11:04AM

Water John wrote: »

I think 9 of the 10 poorest regions of the EU are in the UK.

This is the nub of the Brexit issue and working class support/vote for Brexit.

They believe it's the fault of the EU (and nothing to do with the London/SE centric UK government and decades of neglect).

Leroy42 · 06-08-2019 11:05AM

A fisheries policy that allows the UK sell the majority of its catch to the EU without tariff? Is that what you have an issue with?

It perhaps that UK licence holders sold off there access for money to other EU countries. Not forced to. Simply for profit.

But I am sure you have a list of laws that will make things better.

What will you be able to do better on 1st November? And before you trot out Trade agreements you first need to show how the current trade agreements has been negative to the UK.

Can't recall where I read it but it made a lot of sense. The UK has mistaken London, one of the great cities of the world, for the entire UK. There seems to be this belief that everywhere will be like London and since it isn't it must be the fault of the EU.

But none of it is true. The reason for London dominance is many fold, and partly due to history. But the problems in other areas across the country land squarely at the foot of UK governments. Yet they, mostly Tory but also Labour, gave managed to convince many that it is someone else's fault.

briany · 06-08-2019 11:09AM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

However, this meant that NI would be different to Britain which the DUP (who oppose the peace and equality measures within the GFA) were not happy with NI having different (albeit better) trading arrangements to Britain so May sought a whole UK customs union.

In essence what May did was attempt to placate a minority of NI Unionists by p*ssing off a much larger swathe of people.

I'm not sure what has gone better so far - the Conservatives' approach to Brexit or Homer Simpson's solutions to being stuck in quicksand.

lufties · 06-08-2019 11:10AM

Nody wrote: »

Specify; all you've done is list areas. What exactly are wrong with the trade policies, fisheries etc.?

It was always more than a trading block from it's inception; that you missed that only shows your lack of knowledge.

You mean the beyond only making emotional non fact based statement without any proof or links to back them up? You know; basic requirements such as actually backing up your stated "facts" with actual factual links as required in a debate even though Brexiteers are notoriously bad at it.

If you said UK it would be true; UK media has a very long and well documented list of blatant lies including your current PM admitting that he made **** up to get people outraged at EU.

Having control of your own trade policies. Immigration policies (not the mass unfiltered type that you lot love). A system based on merit. Control of fisheries (which is EU controlled). Ultimately to not be dictated to by people from a foreign land.

The UK media loves the EU, what are you on about? Aswell as RTE, and the rest of the biased media.

Brexit all the way.

brickster69 · 06-08-2019 11:13AM

The EU and its employees are immune to UK tax laws, that’s article 104

VinLieger · 06-08-2019 11:17AM

lufties wrote: »

Having control of your own trade policies. Immigration policies (not the mass unfiltered type that you lot love). A system based on merit. Control of fisheries (which is EU controlled). Ultimately to not be dictated to by people from a foreign land.

The UK media loves the EU, what are you on about? Aswell as RTE, and the rest of the biased media.

Brexit all the way.

Immigration policies ehh? You mean the ones the UK had control over but chose not to enforce?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/31/britain-take-back-control-immigration-eu-directive-brexit

Also they had control over the own trade policies by virtue of the fact any one nation can completely veto or stall a trade policy if they have a problem with it while its being negotiated.

Are you aware of how trade negotiations even work?

I really enjoy posting this video so ill just do it again to try to help you understand why 60 million from the UK wont make for better trade traties than 500 million in the EU

seraphimvc · 06-08-2019 11:18AM

lufties wrote: »

Professionally trained workers rummaging through workplace bins is unacceptable I dont care what you say.

A couple I lived next door to in Cologne agreed with the anti EU sentiment. Their standard of living has dropped significantly over the last 50 years.

Solely on that 'recycling practice' you mentioned there: I am not entirely sure about how the regulations work in Cologne but in Berlin region, they have this great incentive for the people to recycle their plastic/glass bottles hence the city is so clean and it is a great habit to have. I have no doubts on many germans would have the same habit around the country - heck, my good german friend is obsessed with this sort of stuffs lol (a bit annoying when we travel with him but hell that is a great habit i must say).

great incentive ie you can get back 8-25 cents per bottle when you bring it to those supermarket

Leroy42 · 06-08-2019 11:20AM

You do control your own trade policies. The UK have a very strong voice in the EU. Since they agreed to the multiple trade deals one must assume they agreed to them. The PMs voted for democratically.

But ok, what parts of those trade deals would you change?

Immigration is in the hands of the UK. For you know about Belgium EU policy?

And that only deals with EU countries. The rest of the world is even more controlled. Yet TM stood atop the wind gate Scandal.

Fisheries. What would you change? You got access to massive continental markets . The UK has recently signed a trade deal with Faroe Islands allowing them access to UK waters. Not exactly a promising start.

UK media? So I take it the Telegraph, Sun, Express etc. are no classified as foreign media or something.

These generalities are great for throwing around in a pub debate, but 3 years after the vote this is all you've got? Nothing of substance or even based on reality.

ancapailldorcha · 06-08-2019 11:24AM

Mod: Do not just paste links here please. This is a discussion forum not a link repository. A post has been deleted.

ambro25 · 06-08-2019 11:26AM

brickster69 wrote: »

The EU and its employees are immune to UK tax laws, that’s article 104

Article 104 of which piece of legislation? (Now I know *exactly* which piece of legislation is relevant for this income tax issue you raised, so fair warning that (i) no, this is not a trap (since you have fair warning) and (ii) no bulls*** answer acceptable).

The EU is an international organisation and its employees pay a Community income tax (progressive, 8% to 45%) and social solidarity contributions ("levy") of 6% to 7%.

Did you know that the UN, NATO, the WTO, as international organisations (of which the UK is *also* a full member), are *also* immune to UK tax laws, as are their employees?

Many more international organisations (of which the UK is *also* a full member) available to list, where these very few notable ones came from.

lufties · 06-08-2019 11:27AM

seraphimvc wrote: »

Solely on that 'recycling practice' you mentioned there: I am not entirely sure about how the regulations work in Cologne but in Berlin region, they have this great incentive for the people to recycle their plastic/glass bottles hence the city is so clean and it is a great habit to have. I have no doubts on many germans would have the same habit around the country - heck, my good german friend is obsessed with this sort of stuffs lol (a bit annoying when we travel with him but hell that is a great habit i must say).

great incentive ie you can get back 8-25 cents per bottle when you bring it to those supermarket

Recycling personal plastic is different to rummaging through workplace bins furiously every day to make a few cents.

I worked in Germany, taxes are higher than anywhere I've worked. Salaries are lower than anywhere I've worked. Go figure.

gimli2112 · 06-08-2019 11:29AM

DOCARCH wrote: »

This is the nub of the Brexit issue and working class support/vote for Brexit.

They believe it's the fault of the EU (and nothing to do with the London/SE centric UK government and decades of neglect).

The problem is if things get worse after a crash out which let's face it they will, it will be the EU's fault for causing it.

PropJoe10 · 06-08-2019 11:35AM

Dominic Grieve attacking Boris's chief advisor today and threatening a government of national unity involving members of Labour and the Lib Dems in the case of a no-confidence motion succeeding against Johnson. Interesting times ahead for sure.

https://news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-attacks-boris-johnsons-top-adviser-dominic-cummings-over-no-deal-brexit-threat-11778499

VinLieger · 06-08-2019 11:37AM

lufties wrote: »

I worked in Germany, taxes are higher than anywhere I've worked.

Yes and they receive far higher range and standard of services because of it and thus have to pay out of pocket for less of these services than for example those of us in the UK or Ireland do

lufties wrote: »

Salaries are lower than anywhere I've worked. Go figure.

In your job specifically, across the board this is simply untrue they are around the EU average in net take home pay so this is subjectively a completely incorrect statement

First Up · 06-08-2019 11:40AM

ThePanjandrum wrote:

So we go on WTO terms, the same way as the USA and China deal with the EU. It's not ideal but if it comes to tariffs then the UK Government will receive a lot more revenue than the EU and can use it to shield its businesses.

I don't know how many more times this has to be explained. The Single Market is NOT JUST ABOUT TARIFFS. It is about allowing fast moving supply chains that build specialisation and reduce costs.

The EU's trade with China and the US is one way - goods arrive in one or the other and are consumed there.

The EU's trade within itself involves goods crossing between member countries for processing, packaging, distribution and eventual consumption across the whole EU market. It is about efficiencies, not customs revenue.

When the UK leaves the Single Market it will exclude itself from both sales opportunities and the cost benefits that accrue from being part of these efficiencies. The damage will be immeasurable.

Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

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