Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

declanflynn · 06-08-2019 08:54AM

brickster69 wrote: »

Backstop, what backstop ?

Who do you believe and who is lying ?

https://twitter.com/lienomail/status/1158623462149251077

The backstop was the uks idea mate!

prawnsambo · 06-08-2019 08:57AM

brickster69 wrote: »

EU's weakness is it thinks it is stronger than it is. They thought that the UK would accept a Treaty no other nation on Earth would accept. Now they will have to accept the worst case scenario. Soon Europe's businesses will start to ask WTF is going on ?

"sign this agreement, we will not change it and it is the best we will offer or else we will go into recession, our banks could fail and make 1.5 million EU citizens unemployed. Oh and we don't need your military we will make our new army. Finally we will have a border on Ireland, how do you like that ? "

No other nation on earth would have contemplated what the UK is doing, so your assertion is moot.

declanflynn · 06-08-2019 09:04AM

Just a few brands that are not owned by brits
Rolls Royce
Weetabix
Cadbury
Newcastle brown ale
Jaguar land rover
Camelot
Boots
Raleigh
Asda
Branston pickle
Ur average brit thinks these are British companies and always will be long live the queen etc etc, it's mind boggling

prawnsambo · 06-08-2019 09:11AM

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

So we go on WTO terms, the same way as the USA and China deal with the EU. It's not ideal but if it comes to tariffs then the UK Government will receive a lot more revenue than the EU and can use it to shield its businesses.

You do understand that tariffs are collected from UK individuals and businesses importing goods? So you propose to use the money collected from businesses to shield those same businesses?

Stop moaning ffs · 06-08-2019 09:11AM

brickster69 wrote: »

Backstop, what backstop ?

Who do you believe and who is lying ?

https://twitter.com/lienomail/status/1158623462149251077

If there’s no backstop, why is Johnson insisting on it’s removal?

This is very little to do with the backstop, Mays red lines and many other elements of the WA are hugely problematic for the British so if it wasn’t the backstop it would simply be something else. They want to renegotiate the entire WA and that’s not going to happen, so they’re banging on about the backstop to put the blame on the EU.
That won’t get them anywhere and so abritain finds itself in catastrophe alone with no trade deals and sterling fallen through the floor. It isn’t up to the EU to save them from that. It’s up to Britain to accept the WA and get on with it.

Leroy42 · 06-08-2019 09:16AM

Brickster69, what is the alternative to a backstop? Lets us imagine for a moment that the EU conceeds to UK demands and removes it to reopen talks.

What is the UK plan? They (UK) cannot continue to adhere to current regulations as this would negate the ability to do other trade deals. They cannot leave an open border as his would remove any incentive for other countries to look for tariff or access agreements as part of future trade deals.

So what are the UK planning on doing to resolve their own problem. Forget about the EU issues, which the Brexit side have used to conveniently avoid having to actually discuss the real issues.

Its either a backstop, a border or continuing to accept EU regulations.

20silkcut · 06-08-2019 09:26AM

brickster69 wrote: »

Backstop, what backstop ?

Who do you believe and who is lying ?

https://twitter.com/lienomail/status/1158623462149251077

Some really odious comments under that tweet.

lawred2 · 06-08-2019 09:29AM

brickster69 wrote: »

EU's weakness is it thinks it is stronger than it is. They thought that the UK would accept a Treaty no other nation on Earth would accept. Now they will have to accept the worst case scenario. Soon Europe's businesses will start to ask WTF is going on ?

"sign this agreement, we will not change it and it is the best we will offer or else we will go into recession, our banks could fail and make 1.5 million EU citizens unemployed. Oh and we don't need your military we will make our new army. Finally we will have a border on Ireland, how do you like that ? "

not too many other nations self destructing like the UK is either mate so...

Nody · 06-08-2019 09:31AM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Brickster69, what is the alternative to a backstop? Lets us imagine for a moment that the EU conceeds to UK demands and removes it to reopen talks.

What is the UK plan? They (UK) cannot continue to adhere to current regulations as this would negate the ability to do other trade deals. They cannot leave an open border as his would remove any incentive for other countries to look for tariff or access agreements as part of future trade deals.

So what are the UK planning on doing to resolve their own problem. Forget about the EU issues, which the Brexit side have used to conveniently avoid having to actually discuss the real issues.

Its either a backstop, a border or continuing to accept EU regulations.

1) Leave EU
2) ... (Unicorns!)
3) Profit!

That's summarize the UK plans atm. Fun fact as of about a year ago there are ZERO countries in the WTO that trade only on WTO terms but UK thinks those terms are so great that they are going to show the rest of the world how wonderful that idea is.

FrancieBrady · 06-08-2019 09:33AM

lawred2 wrote: »

not too many other nations self destructing like the UK is either mate so...

Exactly. Brexit is but a symptom of a wider crisis in the UK, that they are not even beginning to address.

Leroy42 · 06-08-2019 09:42AM

brickster69 wrote: »

EU's weakness is it thinks it is stronger than it is.

The EU knows how strong it is in relative terms to the UK. The weakness has been entirely on the UK in that respect. They completely overestimated their power. They didn't even have a plan when they triggered Art 50. Where do you really think the weakness lies?

brickster69 wrote: »

They thought that the UK would accept a Treaty no other nation on Earth would accept. Now they will have to accept the worst case scenario. Soon Europe's businesses will start to ask WTF is going on ?

You must not have been around for the last couple of years. To summarise it, TM and the UK government have been in negotiations for the last 2 years with the UK, during which time a deal was made between both sides. The representative of the EU as selected by the 27 heads of state and the duly elected PM of the UK and backed by HMG. So the EU simply negotiated a deal with the correct representatives of the UK and having made an agreement were of the understanding that the PM had the backing of the HoC, as the position infers.

brickster69 wrote: »

"sign this agreement, we will not change it and it is the best we will offer or else we will go into recession, our banks could fail and make 1.5 million EU citizens unemployed. Oh and we don't need your military we will make our new army. Finally we will have a border on Ireland, how do you like that ? "

What part of the agreement is unfair or unrealistic? Citizens rights is a no brainer, and even Johnson agrees with that. The payment for monies owed is surely not something that a nation should as the UK is really arguing is doesn't need to pay simply because it doesn't want to.

The backstop is a UK demand, a potential solution to the contrary position of agreeing to abide by the GFA and ensure no border in NI, whilst simultaneously wanting to erect borders and diverge from EU regulations. We are all still waiting for this amazing idea that can remove the need for the backstop.

It appears to me that the reason the WA is not acceptable is that everyone can clearly see that it is a worse position than the UK currently has, which of course begs the questions as to the entire point of Brexit.

But rather than debate that, the ERG etc doubled down and said that rather than a best case scenario they will have a tantrum and storm out.

brickster69 · 06-08-2019 09:55AM

declanflynn wrote: »

The backstop was the uks idea mate!

Backstop originally was an EU idea for keeping NI in a customs Union. Then it was requested by May to be UK wide as it would break the GFA if Northern Ireland was treated differently.

Don't hear much about that one do we ?

BonnieSituation · 06-08-2019 09:59AM

brickster69 wrote: »

Backstop originally was an EU idea for keeping NI in a customs Union. Then it was requested by May to be UK wide as it would break the GFA if Northern Ireland was treated differently.

Don't hear much about that one do we ?

You hear about it all the time. We repeat it incessantly.

What exactly is your point in all of your ramblings? Is it that Ireland should roll over and have its tummy tickled?

Leroy42 · 06-08-2019 10:09AM

So what is the alternative to a backstop?

The UK agreed to it as it was the best solution to the problem the UK had created.

They now don't like it. So what is the alternative? I have yet to hear one and Johnson certainly hasn't proposed one.

prawnsambo · 06-08-2019 10:21AM

brickster69 wrote: »

Backstop originally was an EU idea for keeping NI in a customs Union. Then it was requested by May to be UK wide as it would break the GFA if Northern Ireland was treated differently.

Don't hear much about that one do we ?

Pure spin. The UK's position was weakened by the GE that May called and lost her majority. The DUP then demanded that there be no divergence and TM proposed the all UK backstop.

Russman · 06-08-2019 10:24AM

Leroy42 wrote: »

It appears to me that the reason the WA is not acceptable is that everyone can clearly see that it is a worse position than the UK currently has, which of course begs the questions as to the entire point of Brexit.

This, I think, is essentially the entire fiasco in a nutshell. No matter what arrangement is arrived at, backstop or no backstop, divorce bill or not, it will be demonstrably worse for the UK outside the EU than as a member.

According to the UN, there are 36 developed countries in the world. Excluding the UK, that leaves 35, of which there's the EU27 that the UK wants to walk away from, plus Iceland, Norway and Switzerland who are almost members. After that they're left with the US who'll treat them very harshly in trade negotiations, and Canada, Australia, New Zealand & Japan, none of whom have indicated any willingness to choose the UK over their existing or potential trade arrangements with the EU.

There is literally no upside to Brexit.

brickster69 · 06-08-2019 10:25AM

Leroy42 wrote: »

So what is the alternative to a backstop?

The UK agreed to it as it was the best solution to the problem the UK had created.

They now don't like it. So what is the alternative? I have yet to hear one and Johnson certainly hasn't proposed one.

Seen as Junker, Varadkar and Johnson have all said there will be no checks at the border. There will either be no checks or checks will be carried out away from the border.

You would think the EU / IRE need to decide which one and then come up with something. UK has said checks will be away from the border.

prawnsambo · 06-08-2019 10:27AM

brickster69 wrote: »

Seen as Junker, Varadkar and Johnson have all said there will be no checks at the border. There will either be no checks or checks will be carried out away from the border.

You would think the EU / IRE need to decide which one and then come up with something. UK has said checks will be away from the border.

In other words a backstop in the Irish Sea. You seem to be incapable of joining the dots.

briany · 06-08-2019 10:30AM

Leroy42 wrote: »

So what is the alternative to a backstop?

The UK agreed to it as it was the best solution to the problem the UK had created.

They now don't like it. So what is the alternative? I have yet to hear one and Johnson certainly hasn't proposed one.

There's no official alternative. The British line appears to be that perfectly sensible alternatives exist, but it's up to the EU to get off this backstop kick before they can even be discussed.

I found Fintan O' Toole's idea interesting when he suggested that Sinn Fein MPs could do a deal with the Alliance party whereby the SF MPs stand down from their seats and those constituencies would vote in Alliance candidates on a tactical basis. These MPs would then go to Westminster and nullify the DUP. Afterward, they would in turn stand down and allow the Sinn Fein MPs to be voted back in.

The above is certainly not a realistic scenario, but as this crisis escalates, something outside the box does need to happen.

FrancieBrady · 06-08-2019 10:35AM

briany wrote: »

I found Fintan O' Toole's idea interesting when he suggested that Sinn Fein MPs could do a deal with the Alliance party whereby the SF MPs stand down from their seats and those constituencies would vote in Alliance candidates on a tactical basis. These MPs would then go to Westminster and nullify the DUP. Afterward, they would in turn stand down and allow the Sinn Fein MPs to be voted back in.

The above is certainly not a realistic scenario, but as this crisis escalates, something outside the box does need to happen.

To be perfectly honest after listening to Gregory Campbell on Sean O'Rourke the only thing that needs to happen now, or the only realistic thing that is going to fix the problem, is let them go.
A world of pain awaits, but I don't see an alternative anymore.

lufties · 06-08-2019 10:35AM

Russman wrote: »

This, I think, is essentially the entire fiasco in a nutshell. No matter what arrangement is arrived at, backstop or no backstop, divorce bill or not, it will be demonstrably worse for the UK outside the EU than as a member.

According to the UN, there are 36 developed countries in the world. Excluding the UK, that leaves 35, of which there's the EU27 that the UK wants to walk away from, plus Iceland, Norway and Switzerland who are almost members. After that they're left with the US who'll treat them very harshly in trade negotiations, and Canada, Australia, New Zealand & Japan, none of whom have indicated any willingness to choose the UK over their existing or potential trade arrangements with the EU.

There is literally no upside to Brexit.

Being able to make your own laws and policies and borders, and not be dictated to by unelected dictators who worship marxist ideology.

I'm Irish and living in England. Life is better here for me as there is more opportunities, diversity of thought, and salaries are better (in my industry). Ireland is being used as a weapon by the EU, and in my opinion Varadkar couldn't give a monkeys about Ireland. SNIP. No insults please.

The UK has great potential outside the EU, Ireland will be left behind as the EU lap dog. I've lived in Germany, and trust me they are ruthless. Germany is a cold, soulless place where wages are terrible. I've seen co workers search through bins to get plastic bottles to exchange. People are on the bread line there. The elites in Brussels want a new age, sophisticated version of communism. No thanks.

Regarding the border, Estonia and Russia have a flourishing electronic border. In the scheme of things it is a small issue. However, the dictators in Brussels use it for political gain.

Leroy42 · 06-08-2019 10:38AM

brickster69 wrote: »

Seen as Junker, Varadkar and Johnson have all said there will be no checks at the border. There will either be no checks or checks will be carried out away from the border.

You would think the EU / IRE need to decide which one and then come up with something. UK has said checks will be away from the border.

So you have no alternative then?

Why are you blaming the EU when it was the UK that created this, triggered A50?

3 years after the vote and there is no alternative just silly blame games.

From the very outset the EU stated that they were open to alternatives. The UK failed to come up with any workable alternatives. So the EU, with the A50 time period fast approaching and TM telling everyone that no extension would be sought, had to accept that the backstop was all there was and so took TM position on it.

But the UK threw out TM and now want an alternative. But the alternative is still open to them once the WA is agreed. That is another point entirely disregarded. He backstop is, and always was, "unless and until".

Once the UK sorts itself out it can sort out an alternative and bingo. But the likes of you would much rather blame the EU for the failure rather than look at the realities that face you.

Which of the following is the least worst:

Border
Backstop,
Remain.

It really is not that difficult and no about of blame, stomping of feet or whatever is going to change the reality. Instead of blaming the EU you should be asking why Johnson, one of the leaders of the Brexit movement, has come to the PM position without no plan whatsoever.

upupup · 06-08-2019 10:39AM

lufties wrote: »

Being able to make your own laws and policies and borders, and not be dictated to by unelected dictators who worship marxist ideology.

I'm Irish and living in England. Life is better here for me as there is more opportunities, diversity of thought, and salaries are better (in my industry). Ireland is being used as a weapon by the EU, and in my opinion Varadkar couldn't give a monkeys about Ireland. He is a narcissist that puts EU before everything. Combine this with media brainwashing.

The UK has great potential outside the EU, Ireland will be left behind as the EU lap dog. I've lived in Germany, and trust me they are ruthless. Germany is a cold, soulless place where wages are terrible. I've seen co workers search through bins to get plastic bottles to exchange. People are on the bread line there. The elites in Brussels want a new age, sophisticated version of communism. No thanks.

Regarding the border, Estonia and Russia have a flourishing electronic border. In the scheme of things it is a small issue. However, the dictators in Brussels use it for political gain.

Nonsense.

FrancieBrady · 06-08-2019 10:40AM

lufties wrote: »

Being able to make your own laws and policies and borders, and not be dictated to by unelected dictators who worship marxist ideology.

I'm Irish and living in England. Life is better here for me as there is more opportunities, diversity of thought, and salaries are better (in my industry). Ireland is being used as a weapon by the EU, and in my opinion Varadkar couldn't give a monkeys about Ireland. He is a narcissist that puts EU before everything. Combine this with media brainwashing.

The UK has great potential outside the EU, Ireland will be left behind as the EU lap dog. I've lived in Germany, and trust me they are ruthless. Germany is a cold, soulless place where wages are terrible. I've seen co workers search through bins to get plastic bottles to exchange. People are on the bread line there. The elites in Brussels want a new age, sophisticated version of communism. No thanks.

Regarding the border, Estonia and Russia have a flourishing electronic border. In the scheme of things it is a small issue. However, the dictators in Brussels use it for political gain.

But the fact is, it isn't just Leo that is leading here.

Water John · 06-08-2019 10:40AM

If one listened to Gregory Campbell, honestly you'd want to leave the planet.

UK - 'diversity of thought' that's a good one.
Germans rifling the bins? Have a good look at the UK .
EU 'marxist ideology' what a laugh.

Leroy42 · 06-08-2019 10:41AM

lufties wrote: »

Being able to make your own laws and policies and borders, and not be dictated to by unelected dictators who worship marxist ideology.

I'm Irish and living in England. Life is better here for me as there is more opportunities, diversity of thought, and salaries are better (in my industry). Ireland is being used as a weapon by the EU, and in my opinion Varadkar couldn't give a monkeys about Ireland. He is a narcissist that puts EU before everything. Combine this with media brainwashing.

The UK has great potential outside the EU, Ireland will be left behind as the EU lap dog. I've lived in Germany, and trust me they are ruthless. Germany is a cold, soulless place where wages are terrible. I've seen co workers search through bins to get plastic bottles to exchange. People are on the bread line there. The elites in Brussels want a new age, sophisticated version of communism. No thanks.

Regarding the border, Estonia and Russia have a flourishing electronic border. In the scheme of things it is a small issue. However, the dictators in Brussels use it for political gain.

Which laws are holding the UK back?

All the good things in the UK you speak of,despite them being under the yoke of the EU? How did that happen?

The rest of you post is irrational, lazy racially driven nonsense. Have you been in the Bogside? Parts of Glasgow? Both parts of the UK yet almost destitute in parts. Does that mean the UK is a 3rd world country?

careless sherpa · 06-08-2019 10:43AM

lufties wrote: »

Being able to make your own laws and policies and borders, and not be dictated to by unelected dictators who worship marxist ideology.

I'm Irish and living in England. Life is better here for me as there is more opportunities, diversity of thought, and salaries are better (in my industry). Ireland is being used as a weapon by the EU, and in my opinion Varadkar couldn't give a monkeys about Ireland. SNIP. No insults please.

The UK has great potential outside the EU, Ireland will be left behind as the EU lap dog. I've lived in Germany, and trust me they are ruthless. Germany is a cold, soulless place where wages are terrible. I've seen co workers search through bins to get plastic bottles to exchange. People are on the bread line there. The elites in Brussels want a new age, sophisticated version of communism. No thanks.

Regarding the border, Estonia and Russia have a flourishing electronic border. In the scheme of things it is a small issue. However, the dictators in Brussels use it for political gain.

Basically everything in this post is wrong. I have crossed that border and is far from some seamless journey. If such a thing was implemented here it would lead to civil strife or worse