290 BHP seemed slower than it should - why?

Zak Flaps · 31-07-2019 10:19PM #1

Hi. Test drove a Seat Leon Cupra today.
2 litre Petrol /Automatic / 2016 / 290BHP

Yes it was fast but it just seemed empty, or like it didn't have weight behind it, all revs.
Hard to explain but it was like a song without any bass.

Got back into my borrowed car which was a BMW 1 Series
2 litre Diesel / Manual / 2015 / 180 BHP

The BMW seemed to be much faster, much better acceleration mainly. It just seemed to have so much power. It could push you back against your seat if you wanted it to. Much more fun.

Should it not be the other way round?
I'm not really a car person so maybe keep it simple!!!

Thanks.

colm_mcm · 31-07-2019 10:22PM

Torque.

Zak Flaps · 31-07-2019 11:27PM

colm_mcm wrote: »

Torque.

So, I should be looking for something with more torque?

Engine Torque - Lb/Ft or NM ?

unkel · 31-07-2019 11:31PM

Not torque. Turbo lag. All small modern (=small) engines suffer from it, but diesel generally a lot less than petrol as full or near full torque is available from say 1300-1500RPM

Now go try a car that has a lot of torque from idle. Either old skool, V8 or V10 5 liter petrol. Or new skool, any EV...

Wailin · 01-08-2019 09:31AM

Zak Flaps wrote: »

So, I should be looking for something with more torque?

Engine Torque - Lb/Ft or NM ?

It's just different power band. The diesel will have a narrower power band than the petrol. But all that power will be at lower revs where you'll spend most of your time, so feels faster than the petrol

The petrol will not have the same push at low revs, but will go all the way to the red line at much higher rpm.

bear1 · 01-08-2019 09:59AM

Was this a brand new car?
If yeah then I would guess that after 1k or so km it should start opening up more.
Plus diesels essentially punch the power and then go flat whereas the petrol version would be more linear.

djan · 01-08-2019 10:32AM

The thing that pushes you into the seat is torque and not BHP, this is what diesel engines excel at as they have much more of it and a lot earlier in the rev range (which is also way narrower). For a petrol you have to rev it much higher, at around 4k rpm it will be flying. It might not feel faster but it most definitely is.

Another thing to note that it also depends on speed, a diesel would have a quicker start off the line but once you get going that petrol engine would destroy the x20d.

edit: looked up the 0-100kmh times on both and the Cupra is a second quicker at 6s compared to the BMW's 7s. Not a huge difference but what you're feeling is just the difference in torque.

Zak Flaps · 01-08-2019 11:49AM

djan wrote: »

The thing that pushes you into the seat is torque and not BHP, this is what diesel engines excel at as they have much more of it and a lot earlier in the rev range (which is also way narrower). For a petrol you have to rev it much higher, at around 4k rpm it will be flying. It might not feel faster but it most definitely is.

Another thing to note that it also depends on speed, a diesel would have a quicker start off the line but once you get going that petrol engine would destroy the x20d.

edit: looked up the 0-100kmh times on both and the Cupra is a second quicker at 6s compared to the BMW's 7s. Not a huge difference but what you're feeling is just the difference in torque.

It's that quicker start off the line that I like best. The torque.
It's a shame that petrol doesn't offer that punch early in the rev range.
I only do 12000 kms per year, in and around the city, so diesel makes no sense for me.

U_Fig · 01-08-2019 11:52AM

I heard a fellow explain like this before

Torque = Acceleration
BHP = Top speed

Now this is a very high level but if you ever drive say an older Honda petrol with vtec this will become more evident. I had the pleasure of driving an s2000 recently and it felt sluggish compared to my car off the line which has a turbo until high in the Rev range even though it has almost 100 more BHP.

Heres Johnny · 01-08-2019 02:04PM

Zak Flaps wrote: »

djan wrote: »

The thing that pushes you into the seat is torque and not BHP, this is what diesel engines excel at as they have much more of it and a lot earlier in the rev range (which is also way narrower). For a petrol you have to rev it much higher, at around 4k rpm it will be flying. It might not feel faster but it most definitely is.

Another thing to note that it also depends on speed, a diesel would have a quicker start off the line but once you get going that petrol engine would destroy the x20d.

edit: looked up the 0-100kmh times on both and the Cupra is a second quicker at 6s compared to the BMW's 7s. Not a huge difference but what you're feeling is just the difference in torque.

It's that quicker start off the line that I like best. The torque.
It's a shame that petrol doesn't offer that punch early in the rev range.
I only do 12000 kms per year, in and around the city, so diesel makes no sense for me.

A 290 bhp doesn't sound like it would make sense either!! But if you like it but it. I bought a 530d because I like it and not necessarily because I need it. To make things worse my girlfriend bought an A6 not because she needs it but because she likes it! She doesn't even need a car as she gets train to work never mind an exec saloon.

ShadowHearth · 01-08-2019 08:49PM

I am driving a baby Cupra with 192hp and took test drive in 290hp Leon Cupra. It did not felt Any faster then my car up to 120km/h ( it was faster, but not fast enough for me to notice), but once you go over it, you feel that extra power. It was manual so I guess i had a bit more control.
0-60 speeds are similar enough between two cars. My has less power, but has less weight too.
Still, I want Leon Cupra as my next car. Extra space, power and doors.

As some already mentioned diesel has more torque at low end, but it fizzles out. Rev range is bigger in petrols too, so when you used to rev engine up to 3k ish, you won't be revving petrol to 5k, because you not use to it.

unkel · 01-08-2019 08:52PM

Zak Flaps wrote: »

It's that quicker start off the line that I like best. The torque.

You will like a car with a normally breathing big engine. Or an EV. I get the impression you have never driven either. Do it and then you'll know what it is like to be quick off the line, without having to rev your engine first

gctest50 · 01-08-2019 09:07PM

U_Fig wrote: »

I heard a fellow explain like this before

Torque = Acceleration
BHP = Top speed

.........

BHP = torque (ft/lb) x rpm ÷ 5252

LillySV · 01-08-2019 09:14PM

I’ll explain it better, bmw make better engines that the vw/Audi/seat/skoda ****e

drunkmonkey · 01-08-2019 09:15PM

I don't think you drove it hard enough, that should scare the pants off you once your really push it. Probably a few modes on it as well like eco, sports etc as well as a sports setting for the gear box. You'll never appreciate that kind of power on a test drive, when your grinning ear to ear passing out a convoy of trucks is when you'll get it.

01-08-2019 09:22PM

U_Fig wrote: »

I heard a fellow explain like this before

Torque = Acceleration
BHP = Top speed

Now this is a very high level but if you ever drive say an older Honda petrol with vtec this will become more evident. I had the pleasure of driving an s2000 recently and it felt sluggish compared to my car off the line which has a turbo until high in the Rev range even though it has almost 100 more BHP.

Torque isn't acceleration, torque is simply rotational force. Neither accurately equals acceleration, but all other things being equal, the car with higher peak horsepower but lower peak torque will accelerate quicker.

The S2000 also doesn't have 100hp more across the rev range, it has 100HP more at a specific range (probably around 7000rpm, vs ~2500 or so in a diesel).

v10 · 01-08-2019 09:30PM

BHP = How fast you hit the tree
Torque = How far you take the tree with you

Andrew76 · 01-08-2019 10:05PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I don't think you drove it hard enough, that should scare the pants off you once your really push it. Probably a few modes on it as well like eco, sports etc as well as a sports setting for the gear box. You'll never appreciate that kind of power on a test drive, when your grinning ear to ear passing out a convoy of trucks is when you'll get it.

That's what I was wondering, was he driving it in Comfort or Cupra mode, they feel very different imo.

drunkmonkey · 01-08-2019 10:09PM

Andrew76 wrote: »

That's what I was wondering, was he driving it in Comfort or Cupra mode, they feel very different imo.

I was the same test driving an S3, I eventually pulled up and figured it out then caned it.

ba_barabus · 01-08-2019 10:11PM

colm_mcm wrote: »

Torque.

Aye. Torque always feels good.

Heres Johnny · 01-08-2019 10:12PM

A silly analogy I always used to describe it is a rugby forward is like a diesel engine and a back is like a petrol engine

The forward is stronger ,more torque, will be slower at top speed but would drag half the stadium with him where the back is just faster because his legs will be moving faster, more RPM

Silly but it makes sense to me

Dravokivich · 01-08-2019 10:14PM

It makes no odds. You just have to know where the engine responds and drive it to that RPM. Trying to come up with analogies or some sort of conflated imagery will just confuse someone who doesn't understand the analogy.

01-08-2019 10:16PM

U_Fig wrote: »

I heard a fellow explain like this before

Torque = Acceleration
BHP = Top speed
.....

Great explanation in simple terms.
I'd a golf gti for a few days maybe 6 weeks ago. It only came into it's own from 100 to 140mph IMO...... For pootling about it was just a nice golf.

drunkmonkey · 01-08-2019 10:18PM

Augeo wrote: »

Great explanation in simple terms.
I'd a golf gti for a few days maybe 6 weeks ago. It only came into it's own from 100 to 140mph IMO...... For pootling about it was just a nice golf.

I've one outside the door, you sure it wasn't in eco?

Zak Flaps · 01-08-2019 10:27PM

Hi all. Today I drove a BMW 1 Series M135i (326 BHP) Petrol Automatic.
Didn't give me as much of a thrill as the BMW I mentioned in my original post.

Mind you, on a test drive, I feel like I can't really floor the thing!
But I pushed it enough to know it wasn't what I'm after.

For an experiment, afterwards I drove a BMW 1 Series 1.5 litre Diesel automatic.
I enjoyed that more, in a way.
So maybe it's the diesel thing.
But I just don't do the miles to justify a diesel (DFP problems etc).
Any petrol cars out there that can give that big torque feeling ?

(i recently drove a hybrid Lexus NX300h and that gives a nice feeling on takeoff, but that's probably the EV....maybe hybrid is the way to go - not ready for full EV just yet)

Zak Flaps · 01-08-2019 10:28PM

Augeo wrote: »

Great explanation in simple terms.
I'd a golf gti for a few days maybe 6 weeks ago. It only came into it's own from 100 to 140mph IMO...... For pootling about it was just a nice golf.

You see i want them to come into their own well before that.

unkel · 01-08-2019 10:31PM

Zak Flaps wrote: »

Hi all. Today I drove a BMW 1 Series M135i (326 BHP) Petrol Automatic.
Didn't give me as much of a thrill as the BMW I mentioned in my original post.

Mind you, on a test drive, I feel like I can't really floor the thing!
But I pushed it enough to know it wasn't what I'm after.

For an experiment, afterwards I drove a BMW 1 Series 1.5 litre Diesel automatic.
I enjoyed that more, in a way.

Now go drive a BMW i3. It's also automatic. And tell us which of the three you enjoyed most.

drunkmonkey · 01-08-2019 10:36PM

Zak Flaps wrote: »

You see i want them to come into their own well before that.

GTI don't mind the looney above that says they only come alive over 100mph and I'd say go with the manual, a mate of mine has a tuned DSG and took off my manual for a spin yesterday and said he regrets getting the DSG. Neither of us do traffic though
If your to go by the chat over in the GTi/R thread seems now is the time to buy as used values could rise with the new emissions kicking in next year. They've a big following and good resale values.

drunkmonkey · 01-08-2019 10:37PM

unkel wrote: »

Now go drive a BMW i3. It's also automatic. And tell us which of the three you enjoyed most.

Yea but he'll never pull in an i3.

unkel · 01-08-2019 10:42PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Yea but he'll never pull in an i3.

Haha, true enough. Is that an important criterion for you when it comes to buy a car? That you have to be able to pull in it?

01-08-2019 10:52PM

v10 wrote: »

BHP = How fast you hit the tree
Torque = How far you take the tree with you

...no. That's just a misunderstanding of both terms.

Torque is rotational force at the crankshaft, it's absolutely irrelevant to how far you move an object in a collision, which is (basically) mass * velocity.

Even when it comes to 'pulling power', more horse power clearly = more pulling power. It also tends to mean more load on drivetrain and engine to get there though.

290 BHP seemed slower than it should - why?

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