290 BHP seemed slower than it should - why?

Zak Flaps

Hi. Test drove a Seat Leon Cupra today.
2 litre Petrol /Automatic / 2016 / 290BHP

Yes it was fast but it just seemed empty, or like it didn't have weight behind it, all revs.
Hard to explain but it was like a song without any bass.

Got back into my borrowed car which was a BMW 1 Series
2 litre Diesel / Manual / 2015 / 180 BHP

The BMW seemed to be much faster, much better acceleration mainly. It just seemed to have so much power. It could push you back against your seat if you wanted it to. Much more fun.

Should it not be the other way round?
I'm not really a car person so maybe keep it simple!!!

Thanks.

colm_mcm

Torque.

Zak Flaps

colm_mcm wrote: »

Torque.

So, I should be looking for something with more torque?

Engine Torque - Lb/Ft or NM ?

unkel

Not torque. Turbo lag. All small modern (=small) engines suffer from it, but diesel generally a lot less than petrol as full or near full torque is available from say 1300-1500RPM

Now go try a car that has a lot of torque from idle. Either old skool, V8 or V10 5 liter petrol. Or new skool, any EV...

Wailin

Zak Flaps wrote: »

So, I should be looking for something with more torque?

Engine Torque - Lb/Ft or NM ?

It's just different power band. The diesel will have a narrower power band than the petrol. But all that power will be at lower revs where you'll spend most of your time, so feels faster than the petrol

The petrol will not have the same push at low revs, but will go all the way to the red line at much higher rpm.

bear1

Was this a brand new car?
If yeah then I would guess that after 1k or so km it should start opening up more.
Plus diesels essentially punch the power and then go flat whereas the petrol version would be more linear.

djan

The thing that pushes you into the seat is torque and not BHP, this is what diesel engines excel at as they have much more of it and a lot earlier in the rev range (which is also way narrower). For a petrol you have to rev it much higher, at around 4k rpm it will be flying. It might not feel faster but it most definitely is.

Another thing to note that it also depends on speed, a diesel would have a quicker start off the line but once you get going that petrol engine would destroy the x20d.

edit: looked up the 0-100kmh times on both and the Cupra is a second quicker at 6s compared to the BMW's 7s. Not a huge difference but what you're feeling is just the difference in torque.

Zak Flaps

djan wrote: »

The thing that pushes you into the seat is torque and not BHP, this is what diesel engines excel at as they have much more of it and a lot earlier in the rev range (which is also way narrower). For a petrol you have to rev it much higher, at around 4k rpm it will be flying. It might not feel faster but it most definitely is.

Another thing to note that it also depends on speed, a diesel would have a quicker start off the line but once you get going that petrol engine would destroy the x20d.

edit: looked up the 0-100kmh times on both and the Cupra is a second quicker at 6s compared to the BMW's 7s. Not a huge difference but what you're feeling is just the difference in torque.

It's that quicker start off the line that I like best. The torque.
It's a shame that petrol doesn't offer that punch early in the rev range.
I only do 12000 kms per year, in and around the city, so diesel makes no sense for me.

U_Fig

I heard a fellow explain like this before

Torque = Acceleration
BHP = Top speed

Now this is a very high level but if you ever drive say an older Honda petrol with vtec this will become more evident. I had the pleasure of driving an s2000 recently and it felt sluggish compared to my car off the line which has a turbo until high in the Rev range even though it has almost 100 more BHP.

Heres Johnny

Zak Flaps wrote: »

djan wrote: »

The thing that pushes you into the seat is torque and not BHP, this is what diesel engines excel at as they have much more of it and a lot earlier in the rev range (which is also way narrower). For a petrol you have to rev it much higher, at around 4k rpm it will be flying. It might not feel faster but it most definitely is.

Another thing to note that it also depends on speed, a diesel would have a quicker start off the line but once you get going that petrol engine would destroy the x20d.

edit: looked up the 0-100kmh times on both and the Cupra is a second quicker at 6s compared to the BMW's 7s. Not a huge difference but what you're feeling is just the difference in torque.

It's that quicker start off the line that I like best. The torque.
It's a shame that petrol doesn't offer that punch early in the rev range.
I only do 12000 kms per year, in and around the city, so diesel makes no sense for me.

A 290 bhp doesn't sound like it would make sense either!! But if you like it but it. I bought a 530d because I like it and not necessarily because I need it. To make things worse my girlfriend bought an A6 not because she needs it but because she likes it! She doesn't even need a car as she gets train to work never mind an exec saloon.

ShadowHearth

I am driving a baby Cupra with 192hp and took test drive in 290hp Leon Cupra. It did not felt Any faster then my car up to 120km/h ( it was faster, but not fast enough for me to notice), but once you go over it, you feel that extra power. It was manual so I guess i had a bit more control.
0-60 speeds are similar enough between two cars. My has less power, but has less weight too.
Still, I want Leon Cupra as my next car. Extra space, power and doors.

As some already mentioned diesel has more torque at low end, but it fizzles out. Rev range is bigger in petrols too, so when you used to rev engine up to 3k ish, you won't be revving petrol to 5k, because you not use to it.

unkel

Zak Flaps wrote: »

It's that quicker start off the line that I like best. The torque.

You will like a car with a normally breathing big engine. Or an EV. I get the impression you have never driven either. Do it and then you'll know what it is like to be quick off the line, without having to rev your engine first

gctest50

U_Fig wrote: »

I heard a fellow explain like this before

Torque = Acceleration
BHP = Top speed

.........

BHP = torque (ft/lb) x rpm ÷ 5252

LillySV

I’ll explain it better, bmw make better engines that the vw/Audi/seat/skoda ****e

drunkmonkey

I don't think you drove it hard enough, that should scare the pants off you once your really push it. Probably a few modes on it as well like eco, sports etc as well as a sports setting for the gear box. You'll never appreciate that kind of power on a test drive, when your grinning ear to ear passing out a convoy of trucks is when you'll get it.

U_Fig

U_Fig wrote: »

I heard a fellow explain like this before

Torque = Acceleration
BHP = Top speed

Now this is a very high level but if you ever drive say an older Honda petrol with vtec this will become more evident. I had the pleasure of driving an s2000 recently and it felt sluggish compared to my car off the line which has a turbo until high in the Rev range even though it has almost 100 more BHP.

Torque isn't acceleration, torque is simply rotational force. Neither accurately equals acceleration, but all other things being equal, the car with higher peak horsepower but lower peak torque will accelerate quicker.


The S2000 also doesn't have 100hp more across the rev range, it has 100HP more at a specific range (probably around 7000rpm, vs ~2500 or so in a diesel).

v10

BHP = How fast you hit the tree
Torque = How far you take the tree with you

Andrew76

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I don't think you drove it hard enough, that should scare the pants off you once your really push it. Probably a few modes on it as well like eco, sports etc as well as a sports setting for the gear box. You'll never appreciate that kind of power on a test drive, when your grinning ear to ear passing out a convoy of trucks is when you'll get it.

That's what I was wondering, was he driving it in Comfort or Cupra mode, they feel very different imo.

drunkmonkey

Andrew76 wrote: »

That's what I was wondering, was he driving it in Comfort or Cupra mode, they feel very different imo.

I was the same test driving an S3, I eventually pulled up and figured it out then caned it.

ba_barabus

colm_mcm wrote: »

Torque.

Aye. Torque always feels good.

Heres Johnny

A silly analogy I always used to describe it is a rugby forward is like a diesel engine and a back is like a petrol engine

The forward is stronger ,more torque, will be slower at top speed but would drag half the stadium with him where the back is just faster because his legs will be moving faster, more RPM

Silly but it makes sense to me

Dravokivich

It makes no odds. You just have to know where the engine responds and drive it to that RPM. Trying to come up with analogies or some sort of conflated imagery will just confuse someone who doesn't understand the analogy.

U_Fig

U_Fig wrote: »

I heard a fellow explain like this before

Torque = Acceleration
BHP = Top speed
.....

Great explanation in simple terms.
I'd a golf gti for a few days maybe 6 weeks ago. It only came into it's own from 100 to 140mph IMO...... For pootling about it was just a nice golf.

drunkmonkey

Augeo wrote: »

Great explanation in simple terms.
I'd a golf gti for a few days maybe 6 weeks ago. It only came into it's own from 100 to 140mph IMO...... For pootling about it was just a nice golf.

I've one outside the door, you sure it wasn't in eco?

Zak Flaps

Hi all. Today I drove a BMW 1 Series M135i (326 BHP) Petrol Automatic.
Didn't give me as much of a thrill as the BMW I mentioned in my original post.

Mind you, on a test drive, I feel like I can't really floor the thing!
But I pushed it enough to know it wasn't what I'm after.

For an experiment, afterwards I drove a BMW 1 Series 1.5 litre Diesel automatic.
I enjoyed that more, in a way.
So maybe it's the diesel thing.
But I just don't do the miles to justify a diesel (DFP problems etc).
Any petrol cars out there that can give that big torque feeling ?

(i recently drove a hybrid Lexus NX300h and that gives a nice feeling on takeoff, but that's probably the EV....maybe hybrid is the way to go - not ready for full EV just yet)

Zak Flaps

Augeo wrote: »

Great explanation in simple terms.
I'd a golf gti for a few days maybe 6 weeks ago. It only came into it's own from 100 to 140mph IMO...... For pootling about it was just a nice golf.

You see i want them to come into their own well before that.

unkel

Zak Flaps wrote: »

Hi all. Today I drove a BMW 1 Series M135i (326 BHP) Petrol Automatic.
Didn't give me as much of a thrill as the BMW I mentioned in my original post.

Mind you, on a test drive, I feel like I can't really floor the thing!
But I pushed it enough to know it wasn't what I'm after.

For an experiment, afterwards I drove a BMW 1 Series 1.5 litre Diesel automatic.
I enjoyed that more, in a way.

Now go drive a BMW i3. It's also automatic. And tell us which of the three you enjoyed most.

drunkmonkey

Zak Flaps wrote: »

You see i want them to come into their own well before that.

GTI don't mind the looney above that says they only come alive over 100mph and I'd say go with the manual, a mate of mine has a tuned DSG and took off my manual for a spin yesterday and said he regrets getting the DSG. Neither of us do traffic though
If your to go by the chat over in the GTi/R thread seems now is the time to buy as used values could rise with the new emissions kicking in next year. They've a big following and good resale values.

drunkmonkey

unkel wrote: »

Now go drive a BMW i3. It's also automatic. And tell us which of the three you enjoyed most.

Yea but he'll never pull in an i3.

unkel

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Yea but he'll never pull in an i3.

Haha, true enough. Is that an important criterion for you when it comes to buy a car? That you have to be able to pull in it?

v10

v10 wrote: »

BHP = How fast you hit the tree
Torque = How far you take the tree with you

...no. That's just a misunderstanding of both terms.


Torque is rotational force at the crankshaft, it's absolutely irrelevant to how far you move an object in a collision, which is (basically) mass * velocity.


Even when it comes to 'pulling power', more horse power clearly = more pulling power. It also tends to mean more load on drivetrain and engine to get there though.

drunkmonkey

unkel wrote: »

Haha, true enough. Is that an important criterion for you when it comes to buy a car? That you have to be able to pull in it?

Not any more unfortunately. The GTi gets a lot of complements in fairness to it.
Maybe he might give a few quid for my iD 1st reservation if he likes the auld torqueo's.

Mike9832

Zak Flaps wrote: »

Hi. Test drove a Seat Leon Cupra today.
2 litre Petrol /Automatic / 2016 / 290BHP

Yes it was fast but it just seemed empty, or like it didn't have weight behind it, all revs.
Hard to explain but it was like a song without any bass.

Got back into my borrowed car which was a BMW 1 Series
2 litre Diesel / Manual / 2015 / 180 BHP

The BMW seemed to be much faster, much better acceleration mainly. It just seemed to have so much power. It could push you back against your seat if you wanted it to. Much more fun.

Should it not be the other way round?
I'm not really a car person so maybe keep it simple!!!

Thanks.

If the BMW felt faster

You don't know how to drive

The Seat is way faster

0-180kmh

11secs in Seat vs 20 secs BMW

How in the hell could you not notice that?

My diesel Fabia is about as quick as that 180bhp diesel BMW and I sure as hell noticed the difference between that and a Golf GTi

Golf GTi is miles faster, not even close

hurikane

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Yea but he'll never pull in an i3.

I'd say there's a mad lad out there who'd give the op a go and the i3

unkel

Mike9832 wrote: »

If the BMW felt faster

You don't know how to drive

Not everyone wants rev the bollocks out of their car all the time. Personally I like to, but mostly on very quiet roads in the mountains on a very early Saturday morning. 99% of the time I want fast acceleration without fuss.

kirving

[Deleted User] wrote: »

...no. That's just a misunderstanding of both terms.

I didn't think it was a bad analogy to be honest. The point it to get the idea across without quoting formulas.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Torque is rotational force at the crankshaft, it's absolutely irrelevant to how far you move an object in a collision, which is (basically) mass * velocity.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Even when it comes to 'pulling power', more horse power clearly = more pulling power. It also tends to mean more load on drivetrain and engine to get there though.

That's because you've added "power" to the "pulling" part. In isolation, Torque basically says how heavy a load you can pull.

If we think of shovelling sand, Power would be the measure of how much sand you can shovel in an hour. Torque would explain how big a shovel you were taking each time.

Most people judge how fast a car is by its acceleration at lower revs. This is far more dependant on torque than it is on absolute power output at top speed.

drunkmonkey

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I've one outside the door, you sure it wasn't in eco?

Most definitely.
You don't reckon it comes into it's own when you're actually going fast? Pootling about town etc as I said....its a nice golf. Which is essentially a focus, Astra etc rival.

Zak Flaps

Zak Flaps wrote: »

You see i want them to come into their own well before that.

As others have mentioned the 0 to 60 isn't startling compared to the diesel BMW.
It's a turbo charged 4 cyl thrown into a family (small car really) run about.

I reckon a fast petrol BMW would rock your boat more TBH. 335i etc or whatever the current incarnations are.

Augeo

Augeo wrote: »

Most definitely.
You don't reckon it comes into it's own when you're actually going fast? Pootling about town etc as I said....its a nice golf. Which is essentially a focus, Astra etc rival.

What do you expect it to be doing “pootling about town” from a performance perspective? The fact it’s an extremely well rounded car, possibly one of the best all round cars money can buy mean it’s easy to drive normally.

Plant your foot to the floor and go up through the gears, drop a few gears and overtake a truck or throw it around a back road and it ain’t just a “nice golf” though, it will have you planted to the seat and smiling from ear to ear. I’m only taking about a mk5 gti too never mind the newer and more powerful generations.

djan wrote: »

edit: looked up the 0-100kmh times on both and the Cupra is a second quicker at 6s compared to the BMW's 7s. Not a huge difference but what you're feeling is just the difference in torque.

0-60 of the cupra 290 is mid 5 seconds not 6s a standard Gti (with much less power is low 6s).

The golf R is faster again which leads me to believe the Cupra can’t put the power down for a very fast 0-60 being FWD as they have basically the sameness engine.

OP if the cupra 290 didn’t feel fast you just weren’t driving it imo as it is a very fast car. It would destroy the BMW in every metric.

bear1

Zak Flaps wrote: »

Hi all. Today I drove a BMW 1 Series M135i (326 BHP) Petrol Automatic.
Didn't give me as much of a thrill as the BMW I mentioned in my original post.

Mind you, on a test drive, I feel like I can't really floor the thing!
But I pushed it enough to know it wasn't what I'm after.

For an experiment, afterwards I drove a BMW 1 Series 1.5 litre Diesel automatic.
I enjoyed that more, in a way.
So maybe it's the diesel thing.
But I just don't do the miles to justify a diesel (DFP problems etc).
Any petrol cars out there that can give that big torque feeling ?

(i recently drove a hybrid Lexus NX300h and that gives a nice feeling on takeoff, but that's probably the EV....maybe hybrid is the way to go - not ready for full EV just yet)

It's odd that you seemed to prefer the 1.5 diesel to the 35i.
Unless you want to go American muscle then I'm unsure you'll find the right balance you are looking for.
Why not a 450h lexus. Get one after 08 and you'll have much cheaper tax.
Wouldnt go near an i3 tbh

MetzgerMeister

Zak Flaps wrote: »

Hi all. Today I drove a BMW 1 Series M135i (326 BHP) Petrol Automatic.
Didn't give me as much of a thrill as the BMW I mentioned in my original post.

Mind you, on a test drive, I feel like I can't really floor the thing!
But I pushed it enough to know it wasn't what I'm after.

Did you have the M135i in Comfort mode or Sport mode?

ShadowHearth

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

Did you have the M135i in Comfort mode or Sport mode?

Even in wheelchair mode, that thing would be fast.

After that post my perception is: it's not the car/cars it's a driver. Or troll.

MetzgerMeister

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Even in wheelchair mode, that thing would be fast.

After that post my perception is: it's not the car/cars it's a driver. Or troll.

You'd be surprised. There's quite a difference between Comfort and Sport.

Midnight_EG

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Even in wheelchair mode, that thing would be fast.

After that post my perception is: it's not the car/cars it's a driver. Or troll.

I found an M2 wasn't 'fast' per-se in Comfort Mode, but turned into an animal in Sport+. Same engine as the M135i, so I'd says MM is bang on the money.

Mad_Mike

unkel wrote: »

Not everyone wants rev the bollocks out of their car all the time....

This quote sums up the difference between BHP and torque!

Torque - Put your foot down and the car pulls in low revs
BHP - Change down gears, get your revs up to 4 or 5,000 rpm MINIMUM and thats where the power is

DaveyDave

If you don't find a Cupra fast you're definitely doing something wrong. Especially the 2016 pre-facelift model, that's a bit more aggressive than the 300 model in my opinion.

If you're not in Cupra mode it can feel a bit sedated. Yeah it will move if you put the foot down but it's still a daily driver. In Cupra mode the acceleration is super responsive, almost twitchy. That's where it comes alive.

Same with my 1 litre Golf, it's quite dull in drive mode but sport mode makes the acceleration more responsive.

These cars are on boost at low revs, there's no turbo lag and you don't need to get peak power at 5,500rpm to go anywhere or even drop a gear. Paired with a DSG gearbox it will pickup at any moment. I didn't feel like it was slow at lower revs.

Augeo

Augeo wrote: »

Most definitely.
You don't reckon it comes into it's own when you're actually going fast? Pootling about town etc as I said....its a nice golf. Which is essentially a focus, Astra etc rival.

Merrick Tinkling Coat wrote: »

What do you expect it to be doing “pootling about town” from a performance perspective? The fact it’s an extremely well rounded car, possibly one of the best all round cars money can buy mean it’s easy to drive normally.

Plant your foot to the floor and go up through the gears, drop a few gears and overtake a truck or throw it around a back road and it ain’t just a “nice golf” though, it will have you planted to the seat and smiling from ear to ear. I’m only taking about a mk5 gti too never mind the newer and more powerful generations.



0-60 of the cupra 290 is mid 5 seconds not 6s a standard Gti (with much less power is low 6s).

The golf R is faster again which leads me to believe the Cupra can’t put the power down for a very fast 0-60 being FWD as they have basically the sameness engine.

OP if the cupra 290 didn’t feel fast you just weren’t driving it imo as it is a very fast car. It would destroy the BMW in every metric.

Read what I said in context.

I had a very decent few days in one, they come into their own when going fast.

LillySV

Mike9832 wrote: »

If the BMW felt faster

You don't know how to drive

The Seat is way faster

0-180kmh

11secs in Seat vs 20 secs BMW

How in the hell could you not notice that?

My diesel Fabia is about as quick as that 180bhp diesel BMW and I sure as hell noticed the difference between that and a Golf GTi


That’
Golf GTi is miles faster, not even close

That is the biggest load of ****e I have ever read, u should be banned from boards for life!!

I’ll just say this, anyone here who thinks that bhp isn’t the key to proper power should go back to school!! And once they have gone back they will learn that Bmw produce way more bhp in every liter vs all the equivalent rivals ... and their cars are serious handlers... Mercedes will give them a serious run for their money ... Audi equivalent .. no ... ****

Mooooo

What type of driving are you doing? Any longer trips in the week / month? If you seem to prefer diesel try a 330d or go back a few years and try a 640d even for a bit of luxury while you're at it. If you prefer vw group try an Audi in the same vein, or Merc

Phileas Frog

LillySV wrote: »

That is the biggest load of ****e I have ever read, u should be banned from boards for life!!

I’ll just say this, anyone here who thinks that bhp isn’t the key to proper power should go back to school!! And once they have gone back they will learn that Bmw produce way more bhp in every liter vs all the equivalent rivals ... and their cars are serious handlers... Mercedes will give them a serious run for their money ... Audi equivalent .. no ... ****

Reported for bollocksoloxy

LillySV

Phileas Frog wrote: »

Reported for bollocksoloxy

Your a pathetic Audi/vw driver so haha

Can’t afford a real car so bitter ....