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Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

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    #4142
    Yer Da sells Avon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,737 ✭✭✭Yer Da sells Avon


    thenightman wrote: »
    There's no fob or requirement to login to gps system or anything? it's just push button and drive off? sort of mad.

    It's not as easy as just pushing a button. You also have to pat its head and rub its tummy at the same time. And once you've started the thing, getting it to move off requires a bit of thought too. A prospective bus thief would have to do their homework first.


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    #4143
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I heard a story that years ago someone managed to rob a bus from the 7 terminus in Loughlinstown not sure how true it was though. Think it may have been an RV which may have been easier to start alright.

    Very true story, the driver left the single decker running and went off into shop or pub, I can't recall but the bus was a right off....

    A guy let a hand brake off a Av or Ax on Parnell square and it took off backwards down the hill, hit a few cars luckily nobody was hit. I believe was a ex driver....

    Some drivers have shown others how to start over the years too and some have gone off for a spin but it is very rare.


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    #4144
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,663 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    There's almost cetainly an online how to video. There's always an online how to video...

    It was RV556 stolen in Loughlinstown wasn't it? AX474 was taken at the Coombe but was found down the road having just rolled to a stop because they ran..


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    #4145
    john boye
    Registered Users Posts: 1,495 ✭✭✭john boye


    It was 559 and the story at the time was that the guy who took it had previously been shown how to start and drive them by a driver friend of his.


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    #4146
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    This thread is for discussion of the Dublin Bus services that have transfered to Go-Ahead

    Discussion of the Bus Eireann services transfering to Go-Ahead has it's own thread here:
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057941569

    Please post in the correct topic else your posts may be moved

    - Moderator


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    #4147
    .G.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,415 ✭✭✭.G.


    My post was not related to either ex DB services or ex BE services but Go Ahead in general and their wages/recruitment/staff retainment issues which has been discussed at length in this particular thread many times.


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    #4148
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Would it not be better to have one mega merged thread concerning GAI?

    They will have threeoperations going eventually, but are the one company and no doubt many of the items that come up for discussion will be equally applicable to their operations as a whole. I for one would prefer a single thread to discuss GAI as opposed to eparate GAI (ex DB) or GAI (ex BE) etc threads.


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    #4149
    .G.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,415 ✭✭✭.G.


    I would too.


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    #4150
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    GM228 wrote: »
    Would it not be better to have one mega merged thread concerning GAI?

    They will have threeoperations going eventually, but are the one company and no doubt many of the items that come up for discussion will be equally applicable to their operations as a whole. I for one would prefer a single thread to discuss GAI as opposed to eparate GAI (ex DB) or GAI (ex BE) etc threads.

    Not that you say it actually got me thinking why not have a mega thread for all major operators, DB, GAI, BE, IE and Luas? It's already the case though that there is a lot of overlap here between stuff happening with DB already and the ex BE GAI thread would have some overlap with stuff happening with BE.


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    #4151
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Not that you say it actually got me thinking why not have a mega thread for all major operators, DB, GAI, BE, IE and Luas? It's already the case though that there is a lot of overlap here between stuff happening with DB already and the ex BE GAI thread would have some overlap with stuff happening with BE.

    Point taken!


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    #4152
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    .G. wrote: »
    My post was not related to either ex DB services or ex BE services but Go Ahead in general and their wages/recruitment/staff retainment issues which has been discussed at length in this particular thread many times.

    I think the talk of recruitment, retention and wages compared to CIE companies is beginning to get tiresome at this stage. It has been the main talking point since the tendering process. I can't speak for other posters but I'm fully aware that pay with GAI like most private operators is lower than with DB or BE and that is an issue.

    But I will refrain from talking about this topic until solutions are found to it as I don't see the point in constantly going around and around in circles talking about this.


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    #4153
    .G.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,415 ✭✭✭.G.


    Be that as it may, any possible changes to their terms and conditions of employment or pay structure is of interest to anyone with an interest in the industry as things move forward and we see how they try to adapt to the challenges their biggest competition poses them.


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    #4154
    ninebeanrows
    Registered Users Posts: 12,778 ✭✭✭✭ninebeanrows


    Whats going on with 102? Cram packed buses now normalised?

    Disgrace


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    #4155
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    .G. wrote: »
    Be that as it may, any possible changes to their terms and conditions of employment or pay structure is of interest to anyone with an interest in the industry as things move forward and we see how they try to adapt to the challenges their biggest competition poses them.

    Why is the pay a private company offers any concern of yours?

    Do you make comments on what the local Spar employee gets?

    Or is it because it is in competition of a semi state that pay suddenly becomes important to you?


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    #4156
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    salonfire wrote: »
    Why is the pay a private company offers any concern of yours?

    Do you make comments on what the local Spar employee gets?

    Or is it because it is in competition of a semi state that pay suddenly becomes important to you?

    To be fair many are interested in what they pay (and also versus the CIE companies pay rates), you need to also remember that the remuneration of their employees is part of what makes up their bid to operate the service and so is a cost to the state as all expenses of running the service plus a small profit is what they get paid from the NTA, private or semi state that fact does not change.

    Pay becomes a hot topic whenever issues arise regarding DB, IE, BE and even Transdev (especially when there is a strike) because they involved contracts with state bodies.


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    #4157
    .G.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,415 ✭✭✭.G.


    GM228 wrote: »
    To be fair many are interested in what they pay (and also versus the CIE companies pay rates), you need to also remember that the remuneration of their employees is part of what makes up their bid to operate the service and so is a cost to the state as all expenses of running the service plus a small profit is what they get paid from the NTA, private or semi state that fact does not change.

    Pay becomes a hot topic whenever issues arise regarding DB, IE, BE and even Transdev (especially when there is a strike) because they involved contracts with state bodies.

    This.


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    #4158
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Another question though you'd have to ask is whether or not GAI can afford to pay their employees the same or similar wages as CIE companies in the long run and it still being profitable for them without receiving a governement subsidy. Ok it probably makes sense in the short run to prevent staff storages resulting in fines from the NTA but in the long run it may not be commercially viable when their contract comes up for renewal.


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    #4159
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,663 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    Sleety_Rain wrote: »
    Whats going on with 102? Cram packed buses now normalised?

    Yes, pretty much.


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    #4160
    .G.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,415 ✭✭✭.G.


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Another question though you'd have to ask is whether or not GAI can afford to pay their employees the same or similar wages as CIE companies in the long run and it still being profitable for them without receiving a governement subsidy. Ok it probably makes sense in the short run to prevent staff storages resulting in fines from the NTA but in the long run it may not be commercially viable when their contract comes up for renewal.

    This is also what interests me, how they get on long term in the Irish market in the face of competitors that pay a fair whack more than they do. How will they adapt, will they even bother, will they pull out when the contract ends etc, who knows. Interesting to see over time how things play out.

    Of course if DB and BE stop recruiting for a period of time it makes it easier to retain staff.


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    #4161
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    .G. wrote: »
    This is also what interests me, how they get on long term in the Irish market in the face of competitors that pay a fair whack more than they do. How will they adapt, will they even bother, will they pull out when the contract ends etc, who knows. Interesting to see over time how things play out.

    Of course if DB and BE stop recruiting for a period of time it makes it easier to retain staff.

    I guess they also could look for more money from the NTA when their contract comes up for renewal. I get the impression that they entered the market here not so much to make money from this contract but rather to gain a competitive advantage when competing for future tenders as they already have established base in Ireland.


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    #4162
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    I'd say it's a brexit thing also.


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    #4163
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    I'd say it's a brexit thing also.

    Perhaps. They appear to be a bus operator which is expanding they recently bought part of First's Manchester operations under the branding Go North West and have also expanded internationally to Singapore and Germany aswell. I'd say they'd probably in a strong position to take a proportion of First's UK operations currently up for sale.


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    #4164
    SG317
    Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭SG317


    I was on the 17 a few weeks ago, and it carried practically fresh air. I don't understand why the DDs are wasted on the 17 and 114 that don't need them during the Summer as neither of them get busy during the holiday period. While the 102 is crippling under the pressure with single deckers. At least for the Summer when the 102 has extra demand and the 17 and 114 have less demand the allocations should be switched around. However, it seems GAI prefer to put the SDs on the north county routes as it is cheaper for them to do that. There, is no other logical explanation, to why the 102 is still SD operated despite GAI stating they were going to allocate DDs on the 102.


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    #4165
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    I think GAI may not be allowed put single deckers on the 17 as it may be a mandatory double deck route


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    #4166
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    SG317 wrote: »
    However, it seems GAI prefer to put the SDs on the north county routes as it is cheaper for them to do that. There, is no other logical explanation, to why the 102 is still SD operated despite GAI stating they were going to allocate DDs on the 102.

    The allocation of mostly single deck vehicles to the 102 has been the case since day 1 when the service was operated from Ballymount and the allocation hasn't visibly changed even when the outstation has been opened. I've explained this to you before, so however much you try and link the opening of the outstation to the single deck vehicles operating the route, there is nothing that backs this up and plenty of evidence that disprove the correlation.

    Saying that you think it's the case, but can't back it up with any proof and instead say that it's true because somebody can't point to another reason and you think that in your opinion and theory it's true is nothing but a fallacy.

    There has been a small number of double decks on the 102 in the last few weeks, pretty much the same as when it was operated from Ballymount, probably because there has been a decision, for a reason that we don't know, to operate it like that. I'm not going to try and imply I know the reason when I don't because that would be pretty disingenuous.

    Hopefully the revised schedules and working timetables that are in the works for a number of Go-Ahead Ireland routes that are currently under discussion with the NTA will address the issues of better matching supply and demand and also looking at vehicle allocations to address some of these issues. Certainly it needs to be dealt with but should be done so purely under the aim of all parties working together towards improving services for patrons of Dublin City bus services.


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    #4167
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,663 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    devnull wrote: »
    Hopefully the revised schedules and working timetables that are in the works for a number of Go-Ahead Ireland routes that are currently under discussion with the NTA will address the issues of better matching supply and demand and also looking at vehicle allocations to address some of these issues. Certainly it needs to be dealt with but should be done so purely under the aim of all parties working together towards improving services for patrons of Dublin City bus services.

    It's what...nine months now, the "it needs to be dealt with" and yet more "revised schedules" stages are long past.

    NTA were able to dictate where dual door SGs/GTs are used by DB overnight. Why can't this be done with GAI and the 102?


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    #4168
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    dfx- wrote: »
    It's what...nine months now, the "it needs to be dealt with" and yet more "revised schedules" stages are long past.

    The 102 has been in operation for seven full months by Go-Ahead Ireland at the moment and I agree that we are past the point where excuses should be made, but getting timetables changed has never been quick in Ireland, on any state subsdised service. Ed Walls, the GAI MD, has recently said they are discussing the matter and hope to be in a position to release new timetables soon and I have no reason to doubt his word.

    The problem with not having enough double deckers has recently further been compounded by the issues with a substantial number of vehicles across Bus Eireann, Go Ahead Ireland and Dublin Bus, which have issues with ceiling sagging which causes issues with usage of the doors. leading to a temporary withdrawal of vehicles across all operators, which would impact Go-Ahead more as the whole idea of the extra 2019 vehicles being allocated to Go-Ahead by the NTA was to try and tackle some of the issues raised with undercapacity and they don't have the ability to keep older double deck vehicles on to fill in the gaps caused by this like DB/BE.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again, the issues that are going on need to be dealt with and if we're still here a litle bit down the line with no real improvement I'll be the first one to moan and criticse the NTA for it. It needs to be sorted out and it looks like it's in the process of being sorted out and hopefully we'll hear something in the next few weeks about new timetables and that all the vehicles temporarily withdrawn are back in service.
    NTA were able to dictate where dual door SGs/GTs are used by DB overnight. Why can't this be done with GAI and the 102?

    Were they really able to? I thought it was listed in a schedule of the PSO agreement between the NTA and Dublin Bus, which is hardly something that is going to be issued and compliance enforced in less than a day.

    There's nothing to suggest that the NTA can phone DB at 9pm tonight and demand that from 6am tommorow the allocations must change, that would be ridicolous because fleet planners need much more time than that to come up with a bus to duty and driver to bus rota plans.


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    #4169
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,302 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    The upcoming DLR 10k road race is taking place in Dun Laoghaire on BH Monday. GAI should offer updates on diversions for it's routes soon.


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    #4170
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    devnull wrote: »
    The 102 has been in operation for seven full months by Go-Ahead Ireland at the moment and I agree that we are past the point where excuses should be made, but getting timetables changed has never been quick in Ireland, on any state subsdised service. Ed Walls, the GAI MD, has recently said they are discussing the matter and hope to be in a position to release new timetables soon and I have no reason to doubt his word.

    Just to add to that it's fair enough that timetables need a lot of time and work. No point in putting out a new timetanle only for it to have the same issues as the previous one. I get the impression that a lot of the timetables were rushed in order to be out in time for GAI to take over the routes in order to meet certain deadlines.
    The problem with not having enough double deckers has recently further been compounded by the issues with a substantial number of vehicles across Bus Eireann, Go Ahead Ireland and Dublin Bus, which have issues with ceiling sagging which causes issues with usage of the doors. leading to a temporary withdrawal of vehicles across all operators, which would impact Go-Ahead more as the whole idea of the extra 2019 vehicles being allocated to Go-Ahead by the NTA was to try and tackle some of the issues raised with undercapacity and they don't have the ability to keep older double deck vehicles on to fill in the gaps caused by this like DB/BE.

    Yeah afaik no GAI buses have been effected by the recall of SGs and it's only SG567 and upwards that have been recalled with the WHs being taken out of service due to a separate issues with the brakes. It doesn't nessecarily have to be more brand new buses either they could transfer more GTs and SGs from DB to GAI. I would say that the GTs would be more suitable for GAIs orbital operations due to their lower capacity than with DB on busy cross city routes.
    Were they really able to? I thought it was listed in a schedule of the PSO agreement between the NTA and Dublin Bus, which is hardly something that is going to be issued and compliance enforced in less than a day.

    There's nothing to suggest that the NTA can phone DB at 9pm tonight and demand that from 6am tommorow the allocations must change, that would be ridicolous because fleet planners need much more time than that to come up with a bus to duty and driver to bus rota plans.

    I presume the NTA must trust DB to put dual door buses on busy cross city routes and could pull them up if they were observing large numbers of single door buses on dual door operated routes. DB have been fairly good at allocating dual foor buses to the routes which they are supposed to be on.

    The only two exceptions would be the 16 which makes sense as it needs buses with luggage racks which the SGs do not have unless they were to be retrofitted and for some reason the 39a still gets single door AXs even though it's meant to be operated by dual door buses and VTs not sure why it still gets AXs.


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    #4171
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Yeah afaik no GAI buses have been effected by the recall of SGs and it's only SG567 and upwards that have been recalled with the WHs being taken out of service due to a separate issues with the brakes. It doesn't nessecarily have to be more brand new buses either they could transfer more GTs and SGs from DB to GAI. I would say that the GTs would be more suitable for GAIs orbital operations due to their lower capacity than with DB on busy cross city routes.

    From what I have heard it has effected Bus Eireann, Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead Ireland, I have been on a 191 vehicle with Go-Ahead that had issues retracting the doors and also read elsewhere of other people having same experiences. I do not know how widespread the issue is on Go-Ahead, but they, unlike DB and Bus Eireann, do not have the luxury of their vehicles being replacements for old ones that can be kept on in regular service.

    The solution may well be for NTA to transfer some of their vehicles from another contractor, such as Dublin Bus, but I cannot see them doing this for the moment until all of the effected vehicles are modified since DB are already having to revive some withdrawn vehicles to cover for the ones that are having the issues with the ceiling resolved and it's unlikely they would take kindly to having to revive more, if they are even able to.
    I presume the NTA must trust DB to put dual door buses on busy cross city routes and could pull them up if they were observing large numbers of single door buses on dual door operated routes. DB have been fairly good at allocating dual foor buses to the routes which they are supposed to be on. .

    As stated previously there is a list of routes that the NTA have supplied to DB that is updated every so often as an addendum to the PSO contract, which governs what routes should be dual-door operated and DB have been excellent at complying with this overall, it has to be said. There is the occasional time where a non dual door bus turns up on such routes, but that will always happen because that may be all that is available to cover a breakdown etc and it's better than no bus at all and I'm sure the NTA understand that.

    The change of allocations doesn't happen overnight though, because the likes of Dublin Bus would have people in their company who would draw up schedules for what bus is to be allocated to what route and sometimes even duty and the drivers need to know what to take. That will take a little while as you'd expect. Contrary to what some people may think, drivers don't go and take a random bus each morning of their choice, although in some small independents it's quite common that drivers are allocated a bus wherever they go!


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