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Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

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Comments

  • #6152
    Mr.Wemmick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,196 ✭✭✭Mr.Wemmick


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    You were saying that Brexit could reverse globalization yesterday.

    The UK isn't being screwed over by multinational corporations. It is being screwed over by years of failed austerity which was imposed for purely ideological reasons. I'd like to see an academic study to prove this assertion of local workers being undercut.

    Big corporations are becoming less and less labour intensive. Facebook in 2018 only employed just over 35,000 workers for example (Source). Wages are set by the market with a minimum wage at the floor. People on zero-hours contracts would be better off asking why companies like Amazon are allowed to effectively not pay tax and why George Osborne vetoed an EU attempt to cap bankers bonuses, not vote to leave because the EU was looking at finally clamping down on tax avoidance.

    I think we'd all like to see a transparent study to show what exactly is happening; however, austerity and international/corporate take over is not mutually exclusive by any stretch of the imagination. It not only undercuts wages, it undercuts skilled service and local expertise.

    One example, where I am based in the south of England, we have seen strapped-for-cash councils sell off much needed infrastructure and services. Many disability and SEN schools & centres have been sold to international and private companies that charge extortionate sums of the councils per individual then fail the child/young person and the families with no accountability, regulation or transparency. If profits fail, they simply sell up and move on.. expertise and training is at an all time low across the south east and I have seen first hand how private disability schools and centres are full to the brim with cheap, poorly trained staff.

    And that is just one area, the same is happening across the board. The silent and dangerous corporate take over of NHS departments with no care or investment in people or communities is about to become mainstream. Boris and his ilk will deliver it all into corporate hands.

    “The fact that society believes a man who says he’s a woman, instead of a woman who says he’s not, is proof that society knows exactly who is the man and who is the woman.”

    - Jen Izaakson



  • #6153
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Not necessarily defending Corbyn, his flaws are fairly well apparent at this stage, but i do see a grim irony in all of this. For me, Labours current brexit position - a second referendum in all circumstances - actually seems the fairest and most democratic of the lot. But the brexit atmosphere just doesnt allow for such nuances anymore, it has to be one extreme or the other, hard brexit or remain/revoke, as if people's addled brains just cant handle any centre ground compromise anymore.

    I find the Lib Dems position to be a bit disingenuous. They're campaigning for remain and gaining on the clarity of that, but it doesnt seem altogether clear whether that stance actually involves honouring a second no vote. Last week Jo Swinson said no, as did Green MP Caroline Lucas, this morning she appears to be saying yes, but it seems people have no issue at all with the ambiguity of that position. The Lib Dems seem a bit drunk on their recent popularity surge to me, challenging labour to push a vote of confidence the other day and all but ruling out working with them before or after an election just seems naive and unhelpful to me. The reality is they wont stop no deal brexit or boris johnson without cooperating with labour and she should remember that before all the power of leadership goes completely to her head.


  • #6154
    Ultimate Seduction
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,464 ✭✭✭Ultimate Seduction


    Hi Guys, don't really get involved in anything Brexit realatee, just wondering why the UK outside the EU is such a catastrophe, but a county like Switzerland is very successful and rich not being in EU ?


  • #6155
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,948 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Ultimate Seduction wrote: »
    Hi Guys, don't really get involved in anything Brexit realatee, just wondering why the UK outside the EU is such a catastrophe, but a county like Switzerland is very successful and rich not being in EU ?

    Switzerland is effectively in both the single market and customs union via over 100 bilateral agreements with the EU.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #6156
    BobbyBobberson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 498 ✭✭BobbyBobberson


    Lackadaisical wrote: »
    There's a fairly significant possibility that this could end up as the biggest breakdown in Anglo-Irish relations since the 1920 and 30s. I don't really think we want to, or will be able to, placate this kind of nonsense.

    The sense I'm getting is they're attempting to turn us into the Brexit scapegoat because they're hitting a brick wall by trying to deliver the impossible.

    Strange times and I think they're likely to get stranger yet.
    Ultimate Seduction wrote: »
    Hi Guys, don't really get involved in anything Brexit realatee, just wondering why the UK outside the EU is such a catastrophe, but a county like Switzerland is very successful and rich not being in EU ?


    Switzerland has lots of the best parts of the EU

    https://news.sky.com/story/why-the-clock-is-ticking-for-swiss-in-eu-treaty-talks-11565976


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  • #6157
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,074 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Mr.Wemmick wrote: »
    I think we'd all like to see a transparent study to show what exactly is happening; however, austerity and international/corporate take over is not mutually exclusive by any stretch of the imagination. It not only undercuts wages, it undercuts skilled service and local expertise.

    One example, where I am based in the south of England, we have seen strapped-for-cash councils sell off much needed infrastructure and services. Many disability and SEN schools & centres have been sold to international and private companies that charge extortionate sums of the councils per individual then fail the child/young person and the families with no accountability, regulation or transparency. If profits fail, they simply sell up and move on.. expertise and training is at an all time low across the south east and I have seen first hand how private disability schools and centres are full to the brim with cheap, poorly trained staff.

    And that is just one area, the same is happening across the board. The silent and dangerous corporate take over of NHS departments with no care or investment in people or communities is about to become mainstream. Boris and his ilk will deliver it all into corporate hands.

    But how is that the fault of either globalisation or the EU. They are selling it off because they are being starved of funds from central government. Schools are selling off sports grounds because they cannot get enough funding.

    That is UK government policy. Nothing at all to do with the EU or globalisation. The corporations are merely taking advantage of the situation.


  • #6158
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,962 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    Ultimate Seduction wrote: »
    Hi Guys, don't really get involved in anything Brexit realatee, just wondering why the UK outside the EU is such a catastrophe, but a county like Switzerland is very successful and rich not being in EU ?

    Two quick things....

    Switzerland is in the single market and allows freedom of movement (just about/with reluctance).

    Two things the UK don't want!


  • #6159
    Ultimate Seduction
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,464 ✭✭✭Ultimate Seduction


    So how come Britain can't get the same bilateral deals with the EU that Switzerland has? Excuse the ignorance


  • #6160
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,962 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    Ultimate Seduction wrote: »
    So how come Britain can't get the same bilateral deals with the EU that Switzerland has? Excuse the ignorance

    In the main, they do not want freedom of movement (which would be a condition).


  • #6161
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,074 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Joe_ Public wrote: »
    Not necessarily defending Corbyn, his flaws are fairly well apparent at this stage, but i do see a grim irony in all of this. For me, Labours current brexit position - a second referendum in all circumstances - actually seems the fairest and most democratic of the lot. But the brexit atmosphere just doesnt allow for such nuances anymore, it has to be one extreme or the other, hard brexit or remain/revoke, as if people's addled brains just cant handle any centre ground compromise anymore.

    I am not sure this is the case. AFAIK, they are advocating a ref on any Tory deal with them advocating remain in that instance.

    But they still want a GE in order that they can do a deal and they have never said they would hold a vote on that.


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  • #6162
    BobbyBobberson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 498 ✭✭BobbyBobberson


    Ultimate Seduction wrote: »
    So how come Britain can't get the same bilateral deals with the EU that Switzerland has? Excuse the ignorance

    A lot of this was settled in the early days of the EU and the EU arent overly keen on the deal the swiss have. Plus Freedom of Movement isnt favourable amongst leavers.


  • #6163
    MadYaker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,347 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    maynooth_rules wrote: »
    Why is the question never put to Trump about how he feels about the prospect of the Good Friday agreement being pissed on by Boris. Democrats have already stated there will be no trade deal if the good Friday agreement hasn't been respected. Why hasn't Trump done so. Why did we role the red carpet out for him to come here and try and gain the green vote in the US. Does he care about peace on this island?

    Donald Trump has no idea what the GFA is, he probably thinks Ireland is still part of the UK.


  • #6164
    Working class heroes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,689 ✭✭✭Working class heroes


    Ultimate Seduction wrote: »
    So how come Britain can't get the same bilateral deals with the EU that Switzerland has? Excuse the ignorance

    Britain are currently in, the Swiss were never in.
    If Britain get a deal similar to the Swiss it would set a precedent. The EU do not want that, and rightly so.

    Racism is now hiding behind the cloak of Community activism.



  • #6165
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,074 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    The Swiss deal is aimed, ultimately, at getting them closer and thus getting them to join.

    The UK are looking to leave.

    One is a prospective client, the other is a prospective competitor. (and openly stated that they want to compete directly against the EU)


  • #6166
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,757 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Ultimate Seduction wrote: »
    Hi Guys, don't really get involved in anything Brexit realatee, just wondering why the UK outside the EU is such a catastrophe, but a county like Switzerland is very successful and rich not being in EU ?

    Really? Switzerland is in the single market.


  • #6167
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    I am not sure this is the case. AFAIK, they are advocating a ref on any Tory deal with them advocating remain in that instance.

    But they still want a GE in order that they can do a deal and they have never said they would hold a vote on that.

    That, i would accept, is the problem with Corbyn. I am 100% certain the policy is a referendum in any circumstance, but sometimes he chooses to be ambiguous about it. I dont know why, he's not good in interviews.

    But he has said as much, going back for months, as here:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/27/jeremy-corbyn-signals-more-support-for-second-referendum-after-voter-exodus

    Also, all the reports indicate that their conference policy is going to spell that policy out and likely push them further towards the remain position:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-26/vote-corbyn-stop-brexit-how-labour-plans-to-take-on-johnson

    Dont get me wrong, i'm not praising him for getting to a place where he should have been six months or even 2 years ago, but i can kind of see the difficulties of the position he's in.


  • #6168
    Ultimate Seduction
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,464 ✭✭✭Ultimate Seduction


    lawred2 wrote: »
    Really? Switzerland is in the single market.

    What's the "really" about? I wouldn't ask a question if I knew the answer. I wondered why they couldn't have the same deal as Switzerland but I got my answer. I never knew Switzerland had the freedom of movement, I thought they had a border.


  • #6169
    Mr.Wemmick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,196 ✭✭✭Mr.Wemmick


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    But how is that the fault of either globalisation or the EU. They are selling it off because they are being starved of funds from central government. Schools are selling off sports grounds because they cannot get enough funding.

    That is UK government policy. Nothing at all to do with the EU or globalisation. The corporations are merely taking advantage of the situation.

    Where did I write globalisation or the EU in my post?

    As written in my last sentence Boris/ Brexit will make it worst not better.

    “The fact that society believes a man who says he’s a woman, instead of a woman who says he’s not, is proof that society knows exactly who is the man and who is the woman.”

    - Jen Izaakson



  • #6170
    Enzokk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,988 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    That's because it's a distraction tactic. Better to have people taking about ridiculous Rees Mogg than the real issues.


    I shudder to think that this is actually not a distraction but something he believes in. It may look like a distraction and work like one, but much like Trump saying stupid things, it isn't done with a purpose. It just turns out the person doing it is actually that dim.

    Ultimate Seduction wrote: »
    What's the "really" about? I wouldn't ask a question if I knew the answer. I wondered why they couldn't have the same deal as Switzerland but I got my answer. I never knew Switzerland had the freedom of movement, I thought they had a border.


    There is a border for checking goods, as many a Brexiteer has tweeted about. They have gone on and on how easy it is to move between other countries and Switzerland as a person and ignored the checks for goods. This is because Switzerland is not in a customs union which means checks on goods for tariffs need to be done.

    That is why the UK promise of no physical border infrastructure between Ireland and Northern Ireland can only be achieved if either the UK or NI on its own is in both the single market and the customs union. Together those two makes checks unnecessary but if you leave one of those then checks will need to be done.

    If you have a customs union but you are not in the single market, then checks needs to be done to see if goods comply with EU single market rules and regulations like chlorinated chicken.

    If you are in the single market but not in a customs union then checks needs to be done to confirm the correct external tariffs are being paid on goods entering the EU.

    *This is my interpretation and I am open to be corrected.


  • #6171
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,991 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Ultimate Seduction wrote: »
    What's the "really" about? I wouldn't ask a question if I knew the answer. I wondered why they couldn't have the same deal as Switzerland but I got my answer. I never knew Switzerland had the freedom of movement, I thought they had a border.
    Switzerland does have a border and it's a customs border in fact as CH is not in customs union with any of its neighbours except Lichtenstein.

    It is however, effectively, in the single market so phytosanitary checks for example are not required on food products at the Swiss border.

    There are spot checks for customs and small roads are often closed at night.

    Edit: Sorry, Enzokk got there first.


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  • #6172
    ISOP
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 422 ✭✭ISOP


    I see a ramping up of the confrontational language and blaming the EU/Irish on BBC being employed by Tories being interviewed now all the time, the "Irish backstop" the "undemocratic backstop" etc


  • #6173
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,757 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    ISOP wrote: »
    I see a ramping up of the confrontational language and blaming the EU/Irish on BBC being employed by Tories being interviewed now all the time, the "Irish backstop" the "undemocratic backstop" etc

    What the hell does 'undemocratic backstop' mean?


  • #6174
    Calina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Ultimate Seduction wrote: »
    What's the "really" about? I wouldn't ask a question if I knew the answer. I wondered why they couldn't have the same deal as Switzerland but I got my answer. I never knew Switzerland had the freedom of movement, I thought they had a border.

    In short, they cannot have the same deal as the Swiss have because they do not want it. Much of what makes the Swiss arrangement possible is governed by the red lines May set out.

    Switzerland has a border btw.


  • #6175
    Enzokk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,988 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    ISOP wrote: »
    I see a ramping up of the confrontational language and blaming the EU/Irish on BBC being employed by Tories being interviewed now all the time, the "Irish backstop" the "undemocratic backstop" etc


    They will never take responsibility for their own decisions and will always look for someone else to blame. At least Jo Swinson has come out and said they made mistakes when they were in coalition. Brexiteers will never take responsibility for the outcome of Brexit, because if they do they will admit they were trying to harm the UK and its people on purpose.


  • #6176
    Calina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    lawred2 wrote: »
    What the hell does 'undemocratic backstop' mean?

    I think it is to imply to the less aware that the UK is direct democracy driven.

    Which it isn't.


  • #6177
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,757 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Calina wrote: »
    I think it is to imply to the less aware that the UK is direct democracy driven.

    Which it isn't.

    Indeed.

    Also one would think the obvious response would be to ask whether a majority voted for no deal Brexit!?


  • #6178
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,021 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    The last couple of pages demonstrate the confusion that I see in the media / politics in the UK at the moment. The agreement that is on the table is the Withdrawal Agreement which is the enabler for an orderly withdrawal from the EU with three items settled on leaving (1. The €€€ bill 2. Citizens rights 3. The UK border in Ireland). The agreement that Brexiteers in UK what to talk about is the future trade / relationship agreement and it is patently obvious that the Brexiteers want to use all three items as leverage so that they can cherry pick the bits of the EU they like and dump the bits they do not like. The differences between the WA and the future is not really explored by the media in the UK (that I can see)


  • #6179
    McGiver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,492 ✭✭✭McGiver


    ancapailldorcha wrote:
    Switzerland is effectively in both the single market and customs union via over 100 bilateral agreements with the EU.
    Tech note - Switzerland is not in the CU. Nor are EFTA countries. That's what allows them to set up their own FTAs with other countries.

    EFTA are in the EEA (SM), except for the Swiss who supplant the EEA with a series of bilateral agreements, so they are de facto in the EEA as well.


  • #6180
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    lawred2 wrote: »
    Indeed.

    Also one would think the obvious response would be to ask whether a majority voted for no deal Brexit!?

    It's even more fundamental than that. FPTP is intrinsically undemocratic.


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  • #6181
    Strazdas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,441 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    lawred2 wrote: »
    What the hell does 'undemocratic backstop' mean?

    Given that you cannot vote for it, it makes no sense.

    However I sense that Johnson's use of the phrase is no accident. It may well have come from Cummings who has instructed Johnson to keep repeating it.


This discussion has been closed.
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