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The glorious 12th

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    #1652
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    cameramonkey wrote: »
    You actually said what about. Very good, you are getting the hang of the six.

    Seeing as there are about 1650 posts, it is time someone asked the question, if it was not asked already. Well, what % of those have "flegs"?


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    #1653
    careless sherpa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 373 ✭✭careless sherpa


    janfebmar wrote: »
    Seeing as there are about 1650 posts, it is time someone asked the question, if it was not asked already. Well, what % of those have "flegs"?

    Just another 40 posts to go and the thread will be locked


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    #1654
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,237 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    The utter desperation in your post is pitiful, you should have just skipped to the last sentence to be more true to yourself. Every single micron of movement, towards the 21st Century, in the North has to be painfully wrenched from political Unionism and it has pissed-off a whole new generation of young people.

    The Nation State has remained incredibly robust and Ireland, as a 32 County nation state, is embedded in the culture despite broadsides from all angles. Now, with the internet's ending of monopolised opinion forming, the UI concept has been essentially made invulnerable.

    As for you shoving all your chips on the 'Northern Irish' identity whatever the hell it is - well you're going to need a lot of luck if you think it will kill off the desire to see Ireland united. Make no mistake about it - young people of all identities are looking South wistfully at a modern progressive state powering into the 21st Century.

    You had precisely the same views before Brexit -- they just seem all the more desperate now that everything has moved in a direction you'd rather it hadn't.

    That is what is funny to me - the scramble for a new position they can stick on. First it was the 'increased majority', 'we need more that 51% in favour because ....' and now that seems to have pivoted to, 'we don't need territory....'

    And all the time there isn't a single political voice to represent them. I was in Fermanagh all day yesterday at an event and among the people there, there was no problem whatsoever discussing a UI and there were people from all communities there.
    I am convinced that come the time the debate will be rational and sensible with a few belligerents and partitionists jumping up and down on the periphery trying to get noticed.
    Although I am also convinced a few of those will pack up their tents and say nothing.


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    #1655
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    FrancieBrady wrote: »

    And all the time there isn't a single political voice to represent them. I was in Fermanagh all day yesterday at an event and among ..

    A single political voice? Apart from the first minister, also from Fermanagh? Ah but sure she is only a black unionist, her opinion does not count to Francie. And according to Francie, the pira were right to attempt to murder her father, because of the work he did at the time for the elected government at the time., and to violently attack /attempt to commit murder on the school bus Arlene was on as a kid. Says it all.


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    #1656
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,237 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    janfebmar wrote: »
    A single political voice? Apart from the first minister, also from Fermanagh? Ah but sure she is only a black unionist, her opinion does not count to Francie.

    So as a partitionist from the south you will look to a northern Irish Unionist politician to represent your views?

    That figures and good luck with that.

    *by the way I object to your demeaning 'black' comment. You really should edit that post.


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    #1657
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    janfebmar wrote: »
    A single political voice? Apart from the first minister, also from Fermanagh? Ah but sure she is only a black unionist, her opinion does not count to Francie.

    Her opinion may count, but the fact remains that she has not done her job because she hates the Irish language.

    Now that Westminster has stated it will legislate for SSM and abortion, the only real issue remaining is the Irish language act - and since Irish, and Scots Gaelic are the same language - that is completely pointless.

    I know several youths who went on a cultural exchange programme to the Highlands of Scotland. It took ONE WEEK for native speakers of both Scots Gaelic, and Irish Gaeilge to be able to converse freely.

    Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face....

    This is a prime example of the "them'unns" mentality that so divides the North.
    What is wrong with admitting that two Nationalities spoke the same language, exactly?

    Might it just help bring a shared understanding of our past?
    Or is it just that much of Irish history was written in Irish - and it wouldn't do for a history that isn't thoroughly revised to be accessible to ALL of the people on this Island, and let them make their own minds up?


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    #1658
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    So as a partitionist from the south you will look to a northern Irish Unionist politician to represent your views?

    That figures and good luck with that.

    *by the way I object to your demeaning 'black' comment. You really should edit that post.

    You describe me and others you do not like from the "south" as partionists, we never described ourselves as that . I am not looking for a Northern Irish Unionist to represent my view, I am saying she is representing the views of her electorate, even though you do not agree with them and you hope that in time more of them will "up tents" and leave. I suppose the pira attacking the bus she was in as a child ( a bus full of protestant kids) and attempting to murder her father was part of the process of attempting to get them to "up tents", and you still have not condemned the pira. Of course like Gerry you do not engage in the process of condemnation (unless it is condemnation of British and/ or Unionists).


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    #1659
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,237 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Her opinion may count, but the fact remains that she has not done her job because she hates the Irish language.

    Now that Westminster has stated it will legislate for SSM and abortion, the only real issue remaining is the Irish language act - and since Irish, and Scots Gaelic are the same language - that is completely pointless.

    I know several youths who went on a cultural exchange programme to the Highlands of Scotland. It took ONE WEEK for native speakers of both Scots Gaelic, and Irish Gaeilge to be able to converse freely.

    Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face....

    This is a prime example of the "them'unns" mentality that so divides the North.
    What is wrong with admitting that two Nationalities spoke the same language, exactly?

    Might it just help bring a shared understanding of our past?
    Or is it just that much of Irish history was written in Irish - and it wouldn't do for a history that isn't thoroughly revised to be accessible to ALL of the people on this Island, and let them make their own minds up?

    The Unionist ability to keep driving into cul-de-sacs never ceases to amaze. They are in a spectacular one now called Brexit.


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    #1660
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,237 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    janfebmar wrote: »
    You describe me and others you do not like from the "south" as partionists, we never described ourselves as that . I am not looking for a Northern Irish Unionist to represent my view, I am saying she is representing the views of her electorate

    I never said any different.

    Don't be getting cross with me because you didn't read properly. I said 'partitionists' had no political voice here to represent them.

    You kinda confirmed that by calling out a northern Unionist as a voice representing you.


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    #1661
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    The Unionist ability to keep driving into cul-de-sacs never ceases to amaze. They are in a spectacular one now called Brexit.

    Another case of cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

    Theresa May, tbf, negotiated an agreement that respected the NI majority vote for remain, while protecting the GFA.

    Arlene and Co. were so anxious to be treated the same as mainland Britain (except when it suits them), that they completely overruled the democratic will of the people they are MEANT to represent, and willingly dumped them into economic instability....

    You couldn't make this stuff up....


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    #1662
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,276 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Imreoir2 wrote: »
    You are peddeling the concept of stateless nationhood. Please answer the question; if we did not have our own state then with who, or where would soverignty reside? If we did not manage our own affairs, who would manage them for us?

    It is not for us to expand our territory. That is a decision for the people of NI. If the people of NI decide that their interests are better served by partnership in the Irish nation and in the Irish state, and I personally believe that they are, then we have a duty to take our northern fellow citizens in and to work with them to make sure that we can continue to be our own country, with shared sovereignty in the EU and the prosperity that this brings.

    Us versus who? Them? Others? The problem with the UI fantasy is that it requires a victory over others.

    The root of all the wars of the 20th century was the concept of our country to the exclusion of someone else.

    Anyone in Northern Ireland who wants to be part of the Irish nation already can be thanks to the GFA which extended citizenship, so our duty is fulfilled.


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    #1663
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,237 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Us versus who? Them? Others? The problem with the UI fantasy is that it requires a victory over others.

    .

    That's the ethos of the Orange Order right there. If a UI is achieved there will be nobody marching around unionist/loyalist areas triumphalising.

    In fact there will, as we showed in our inclusive and respectful centenary commemorations, be huge efforts made to hold out the hand of friendship and fraternity.


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    #1664
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I never said any different.

    Don't be getting cross with me because you didn't read properly. I said 'partitionists' had no political voice here to represent them.

    You kinda confirmed that by calling out a northern Unionist as a voice representing you.

    No, you are totally wrong yet again Francie. If you read post no 1654 you claimed Unionists had no political voice to represent them. I pointed out the First Minister, but apparently her opinion does not count with you or others.


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    #1665
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,237 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    janfebmar wrote: »
    No, you are totally wrong yet again Francie. If you read post no 1654 you claimed Unionists had no political voice to represent them. I pointed out the First Minister, but apparently her opinion does not count with you or others.

    What is wrong with you? :confused: Here is the post:
    FrancieBrady wrote:
    That is what is funny to me - the scramble for a new position they can stick on. First it was the 'increased majority', 'we need more that 51% in favour because ....' and now that seems to have pivoted to, 'we don't need territory....'

    And all the time there isn't a single political voice to represent them.

    it was blanch yesterday who was talking about 'we don't need territory...'

    I was clearly talking about the southern partitionist viewpoint having no political representation and I have made this point before too.


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    #1666
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    If a UI is achieved there will be nobody marching around unionist/loyalist areas triumphalising.

    Nobody is triumphalising now in those areas by naming childrens play parks after paramilitary terrorists, as happened in Newry. If there was a UI then who knows what would happen, I would say naming roads and parks after "patriots" would only be the start of it.


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    #1667
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    What is wrong with you? :confused: Here is the post:



    it was blanch yesterday who was talking about 'we don't need territory...'

    I was clearly talking about the southern partitionist viewpoint having no political representation and I have made this point before too.

    Read your post no 1654. You were talking about Unionists, not southern partionists or whatever insulting label you wish to put on those who do not agree with you .


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    #1668
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,276 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    That's the ethos of the Orange Order right there. If a UI is achieved there will be nobody marching around unionist/loyalist areas triumphalising.

    In fact there will, as we showed in our inclusive and respectful centenary commemorations, be huge efforts made to hold out the hand of friendship and fraternity.



    :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

    Ah seriously Francie? No more murals? No more lads in balaclavas marching around? No more Bobby Sands Avenues? No more glorification of terrorist bombings?


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    #1669
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,237 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    janfebmar wrote: »
    Read your post no 1654. You were talking about Unionists, not southern partionists or whatever insulting label you wish to put on those who do not agree with you .

    What are you talking about? Utterly senseless.
    That is what is funny to me - the scramble for a new position they can stick on. First it was the 'increased majority', 'we need more that 51% in favour because ....' and now that seems to have pivoted to, 'we don't need territory....'

    And all the time there isn't a single political voice to represent them.

    What 'unionist' is talking about a 'need for a 51% vote in favour'...or

    Who do you think the 'we' is in 'we don't need territory...'

    Jaysus, have no idea when to stop digging holes for yourself.


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    #1670
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,237 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

    Ah seriously Francie? No more murals? No more lads in balaclavas marching around? No more Bobby Sands Avenues? No more glorification of terrorist bombings?

    That is the kind of thing we are trying to stop the need for blanch. And it never will as long as people like you simper a defence of the OO's right to do it.

    There was a concerted effort to remove or change murals in the north( I will look it up later and post on it) after the GFA and huge efforts to stop republican bonfires ,which is ongoing. That will be encouraged after a UI.


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    #1671
    Dytalus
    Registered Users Posts: 459 ✭✭Dytalus


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Anyone in Northern Ireland who wants to be part of the Irish nation already can be thanks to the GFA which extended citizenship, so our duty is fulfilled.

    C'mon blanch. You're smarter and more understanding than this, you've proven it before.

    There's a distinct difference between living in NI and being Irish and being actually part of Ireland. SSM and Abortion rights, to stick with things recently in the news. Language rights for a more long term problem. The perception of intimidation from those who see them as lesser citizens (the (in)accuracy of that perception is not the point of this post - that's a whole essay in and of itself).

    Or should the Irish in NI be forced to move from their familial home to be under the governance of those who would treat them the way they'd like to be treated? It's not that different from telling those who prefer British rule to up and move if the majority vote for a UI, is it?

    There's plenty of reasons to be against a border poll, whether indefinitely or simply in the near future, but 'ah sure, they're Irish citizens and that's good enough' is a pretty weak one.


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    #1672
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,276 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    That is the kind of thing we are trying to stop the need for blanch. And it never will as long as people like you simper a defence of the OO's right to do it.

    There was a concerted effort to remove or change murals in the north( I will look it up later and post on it) after the GFA and huge efforts to stop republican bonfires ,which is ongoing. That will be encouraged after a UI.


    Promises, promises, Francie, all fantasy.

    I don't defend the OO, I concede their right to exist and right to peaceful events. You want to blast them out of existence.


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    #1673
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,237 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Promises, promises, Francie, all fantasy.

    I don't defend the OO, I concede their right to exist and right to peaceful events. You want to blast them out of existence.

    I do want them to fade quickly away. Because they are one, if not the most, toxic influences on society there.
    Ask anyone who has stood resolutely and unashamedly against equal rights for all in northern Ireland for centuries and the answer will be 'the OO'.


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    #1674
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,276 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Dytalus wrote: »
    C'mon blanch. You're smarter and more understanding than this, you've proven it before.

    There's a distinct difference between living in NI and being Irish and being actually part of Ireland. SSM and Abortion rights, to stick with things recently in the news. Language rights for a more long term problem. The perception of intimidation from those who see them as lesser citizens (the (in)accuracy of that perception is not the point of this post - that's a whole essay in and of itself).

    Or should the Irish in NI be forced to move from their familial home to be under the governance of those who would treat them the way they'd like to be treated? It's not that different from telling those who prefer British rule to up and move if the majority vote for a UI, is it?

    There's plenty of reasons to be against a border poll, whether indefinitely or simply in the near future, but 'ah sure, they're Irish citizens and that's good enough' is a pretty weak one.


    SSM and abortion rights were only sorted in the South in the last half-decade, they will follow within the next two years in the North, hardly a compelling difference.

    Irish language, issue there is mutual recognition of culture and traditions. Minority Languages Act sorts that out, I have been over that again.

    Are the Irish in the North somehow in more need of territory belonging than the Irish in the rest of the UK? Or USA? Or Australia?

    I am not telling anyone to move. The movement away from associating nationhood with territory is badly needed in a number of places to stop repeated conflict.


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    #1675
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Promises, promises, Francie, all fantasy.

    I don't defend the OO, I concede their right to exist and right to peaceful events. You want to blast them out of existence.

    you do defend the OO - you have been on this very thread. You hate anything republican. stop with the waffle


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    #1676
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,237 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    SSM and abortion rights were only sorted in the South in the last half-decade, they will follow within the next two years in the North, hardly a compelling difference.

    Irish language, issue there is mutual recognition of culture and traditions. Minority Languages Act sorts that out, I have been over that again.

    Are the Irish in the North somehow in more need of territory belonging than the Irish in the rest of the UK? Or USA? Or Australia?

    I am not telling anyone to move. The movement away from associating nationhood with territory is badly needed in a number of places to stop repeated conflict.

    Any politician positing that 'tough ****' theory will be driving the anti-UI campaign up a DUPlike cul-de-sac. So speak it loud blanch....speak it loud.


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    #1677
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,276 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    maccored wrote: »
    you do defend the OO - you have been on this very thread. You hate anything republican. stop with the waffle

    Us and them, always the way. I have criticised both sides in the North, uncomfortable for the "republicans" that an Irish person would do this as only rightthinking is allowed on the national question.
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Any politician positing that 'tough ****' theory will be driving the anti-UI campaign up a DUPlike cul-de-sac. So speak it loud blanch....speak it loud.

    Fear again, Francie.


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    #1678
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,277 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    That's the ethos of the Orange Order right there. If a UI is achieved there will be nobody marching around unionist/loyalist areas triumphalising.

    In fact there will, as we showed in our inclusive and respectful centenary commemorations, be huge efforts made to hold out the hand of friendship and fraternity.

    There will be people putting up Irish signage in unionist areas


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    #1679
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,237 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »



    Fear again, Francie.


    No, overjoyed that that is the best you can come up with...'Tough ****, you have to stay where you are'.

    Love it! You should get it on the side of a bus. :)


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    #1680
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,237 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    There will be people putting up Irish signage in unionist areas

    Must be awful for you having to drive in the South or go through Dublin airport, you should get on to the European Court of Human Rights.Imagine having to look at another language. Shocking stuff.


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    #1681
    Dytalus
    Registered Users Posts: 459 ✭✭Dytalus


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Must be awful for you having to drive in the South or go through Dublin airport, you should get on to the European Court of Human Rights.Imagine having to look at another language. Shocking stuff.

    C'mon now. I understand your point (it's hardly like they'll be removing the English so it doesn't detract from their side of things), but the situation in NI does warrant concessions from both sides to keep the peace until the tensions are gone (if they ever will be).

    Outright forbidding Irish signage is ridiculous and hardly in the spirit of reconciliation. But to counterbalance that if the majority in an area don't want it then maybe it's best not to put it up. Maybe if it starts going up in cities/towns (I think it's a bit much to do it street by street within, say, Derry but it may be necessary) those against it might realise it's not that big a deal and start to allow it in unionist areas.

    Or maybe not. Point is NI is not like Ireland (or England, or really any of the countries on these isles), and progress on this sort of divided topic is going to have be done slowly if it's going to get done at all. That being said...
    downcow wrote:
    There will be people putting up Irish signage in unionist areas

    Source, please? Because the official stance states exactly the opposite to this, as I'm pretty sure you've been told before.


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