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Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

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    #872
    ToddyDoody
    Registered Users Posts: 4,421 ✭✭✭ToddyDoody


    Would a trial Brexit be possible? Do it for 6 months then review further.

    Now that'd be the EU using its noodle.


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    #873
    Laois_Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭Laois_Man


    ToddyDoody wrote: »
    Would a trial Brexit be possible? Do it for 6 months then review further.

    Now that'd be the EU using its noodle.

    :rolleyes:

    Are the £39bn divorce bill, backstop and movement issues all going to be paid up and sorted out before or after this 6 month trial begins?

    If it's after, it's not a trail

    If it's before, shur why don't all the other 27 members leave for 6 months too...so they can see if they like it! There's no law for it - but shur lets make it up!


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    #874
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    A typically insightful article from Paul Gillespie in yesterday's Irish Times, this time focusing on the efficacy of soft power versus hard power, and bilateralism versus multilateralism. His conclusion is quite perceptive:
    It would be a great irony if the Brexiteers’ desired EU disintegration in fact applies to the UK instead. Asserting hard power undermines unionism by encouraging its weaker partners to seek solidarity elsewhere. In these circumstances one plausible time limit on the Irish backstop would be an Irish Border poll.

    Global and local balance of power will shift after a hard Brexit


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    #875
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Deleted User wrote: »
    A typically insightful article from Paul Gillespie in yesterday's Irish Times, this time focusing on the efficacy of soft power versus hard power, and bilateralism versus multilateralism. His conclusion is quite perceptive:



    Global and local balance of power will shift after a hard Brexit
    Scotland , Northern Ireland and Wales can Democratically leave the British Union any time they get 50% + 1 just as Britain is leaving the Eu with 52% ( also the biggest Vote for anything ever in Britain )

    Democracy and the Freedom that comes with it is probably Human Kind’s Greatest Achievement .


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    #876
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    "The biggest vote for anything ever in Britain."

    Apart from the 67% who voted to remain in the EEC in 1975 or the 68% who voted to keep the electoral system in 2011, or the 55% who voted for the tories at the 1931 GE.


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    #877
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    blinding wrote: »
    Scotland , Northern Ireland and Wales can Democratically leave the British Union any time they get 50% + 1 just as Britain is leaving the Eu with 52% ( also the biggest Vote for anything ever in Britain)

    Given that the people voting for Scottish freedom from those unelected elitist Oxon/Cantab bureaucrats in London, from that unelected parliament in the House of Lords and from that unelected English head of state in 2014 were told that if they did vote for Scottish independence they would be voting to leave the EU, it is richly ironic that the Scots voted to stay in the UK but are now being forced to leave the EU because the English have unilaterally decided that they want to leave the EU. Ah, democracy for the English; the Scots will do as the English tell them.

    Perhaps run it again, this time without British unionist propaganda?
    blinding wrote: »
    Democracy and the Freedom that comes with it is probably Human Kind’s Greatest Achievement .

    I'm not quite sure why you have six proper nouns in that sentence when only one capital letter is justified but it's touching that the rump of the once mighty British Empire which trampled over the democratic rights of most of the planet is now suddenly into 'democracy'.


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    #878
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Joe_ Public wrote: »
    "The biggest vote for anything ever in Britain."

    Apart from the 67% who voted to remain in the EEC in 1975 or the 68% who voted to keep the electoral system in 2011, or the 55% who voted for the tories at the 1931 GE.
    The Total Number of Votes cast for Brexit , Silly .


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    #879
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Given that the people voting for Scottish freedom from those unelected elitist Oxon/Cantab bureaucrats in London, from that unelected parliament in the House of Lords and from that unelected English head of state in 2014 were told that if they did vote for Scottish independence they would be voting to leave the EU, it is richly ironic that the Scots voted to stay in the UK but are now being forced to leave the EU because the English have unilaterally decided that they want to leave the EU. Ah, democracy for the English; the Scots will do as the English tell them.

    Perhaps run it again, this time without British unionist propaganda?
    Yes of course . The Scots only need 50% + 1 to leave the British Union and then they can give their new found Independence to the Eu if they so ( foolishly ) please .



    Deleted User wrote: »
    I'm not quite sure why you have six proper nouns in that sentence when only one capital letter is justified but it's touching that the rump of the once mighty British Empire which trampled over the democratic rights of most of the planet is now suddenly into 'democracy'.
    I Choose to Write in this Style for My Own Enjoyment . This is Only a Forum of Very Limited Importance . If I So Choose I Can Also Write In Other Forms . Perhaps Even the Correct Form If I Choose To.

    It Really is Great That Britain Has Now Found Such Respect for Democracy . And Long May It Continue .

    Without Democracy . There Is No Freedom . Obviously Britain Must Have Been Paying Attention To Its History . Hence , They Know That Their democracy Must Be Respected .

    Do Not Risk Democracy . You do Not Know if You will get It Back !


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    #880
    Auguste Comte
    Registered Users Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭Auguste Comte


    blinding wrote: »
    Yes of course . The Scots only need 50% + 1 to leave the British Union and then they can give their new found Independence to the Eu if they so ( foolishly ) please .




    I Choose to Write in this Style for My Own Enjoyment . This is Only a Forum of Very Limited Importance . If I So Choose I Can Also Write In Other Forms . Perhaps Even the Correct Form If I Choose To.

    It Really is Great That Britain Has Now Found Such Respect for Democracy . And Long May It Continue .

    Without Democracy . There Is No Freedom . Obviously Britain Must Have Been Paying Attention To Its History . Hence , They Know That Their democracy Must Be Respected .

    Do Not Risk Democracy . You do Not Know if You will get It Back !

    Britain respecting democracy. HA HA HA HA HA.


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    #881
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Auguste Comte wrote: »
    Britain respecting democracy. HA HA HA HA HA.
    They are leaving the Eu like the 52% winning side told them to do . The Will of the People Respected .

    The ROI would Keep Voting until it got the Result the Eu Commanded = Not Democracy .


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    #882
    ambro25
    Registered Users Posts: 5,994 ✭✭✭ambro25


    ToddyDoody wrote: »
    Would a trial Brexit be possible? Do it for 6 months then review further.

    Now that'd be the EU using its noodle.
    The 'trial Brexit' is called the "Transition Period", which is brought about and covered by the "Withdrawal Agreement", and is scheduled to last until 31 December 2020 (and it's extendable once to 31 December 2021, IIRC).

    The 'trial' ends one of two ways: either the UK continues it alone after the Transition Period, or the UK applies to rejoin the EU under Article 49 TEU (and undertakes to adopt the €, sign up to Schengen, etc).

    Feel free to look up who's still not signed on the WA's dotted line yet.


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    #883
    Auguste Comte
    Registered Users Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭Auguste Comte


    blinding wrote: »
    They are leaving the Eu like the 52% winning side told them to do . The Will of the People Respected .

    The ROI would Keep Voting until it got the Result the Eu Commanded = Not Democracy .

    Why haven't they left so? What's stopping them?


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    #884
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,941 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    blinding wrote: »
    They are leaving the Eu like the 52% winning side told them to do . The Will of the People Respected .
    Farage recently described Ursula von der Leyen's 52.3% election win as being not legitimate
    By that logic, surely the "52% winning side" who received 51.9% of the vote did not have a legitimate win?
    https://twitter.com/nigel_farage/status/1151186908392951809


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    #885
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Auguste Comte wrote: »
    Why haven't they left so? What's stopping them?
    Anti Democrats in Britain who surprise , surprise are Eu-Philes:eek::eek::eek:

    Now thats a ‘ Surprise ":D


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    #886
    InTheShadows
    Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭InTheShadows


    blinding wrote: »
    They are leaving the Eu like the 52% winning side told them to do . The Will of the People Respected .

    The ROI would Keep Voting until it got the Result the Eu Commanded = Not Democracy .

    This is the bottom line. The UK is a democracy and despite May's and the establishments best efforts and frankly embarrassing carry on the last 3 years the will of the people has to be respected.


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    #887
    Auguste Comte
    Registered Users Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭Auguste Comte


    blinding wrote: »
    Anti Democrats in Britain who surprise , surprise are Eu-Philes:eek::eek::eek:

    Now thats a ‘ Surprise ":D

    Who were democratically elected.

    Your understanding of British democracy is the same as Homer Simpsons take on alcohol, the causes of and solution to all of life's problems.


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    #888
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,941 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    InTheShadows wrote: »
    This is the bottom line. The UK is a democracy and despite May's and the establishments best efforts and frankly embarrassing carry on the last 3 years the will of the people has to be respected.
    Actually the "will of the people" doesn't have to be respected. It was an advisory referendum.


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    #889
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    InTheShadows wrote: »
    This is the bottom line. The UK is a democracy and despite May's and the establishments best efforts and frankly embarrassing carry on the last 3 years the will of the people has to be respected.
    You have to admire the British People for Understanding that their Democracy is way More Important than the Eu .

    Because Without Democracy there is No Freedom .

    Not Respecting the Democratic Decision of the British people to Leave the Eu is far , far too Much of a Risk to Take With Democracy .

    Love Democracy and the Freedom that Goes With It .


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    #890
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Auguste Comte wrote: »
    Who were democratically elected.

    Your understanding of British democracy is the same as Homer Simpsons take on alcohol, the causes of and solution to all of life's problems.
    The Conservative and Labour MPs were Elected on Manifestos to Respect The Democratic Decision of the People .

    Many are doing the direct opposite .


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    #891
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    Actually the "will of the people" doesn't have to be respected. It was an advisory referendum.
    The Prime Minister at the time and the Following Prime Minister told the People their Democratic Decision Would Be Implemented . The Second One at a General Election .


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    #892
    Dytalus
    Registered Users Posts: 459 ✭✭Dytalus


    blinding wrote: »
    Many are doing the direct opposite .

    In what way? I'm curious as to what, specifically, you think they should be doing instead to uphold the will of the people.

    Going into the referendum, there was no prospect of a No-Deal Brexit, so it's unreasonable to assume that's what the people voted for. It wasn't even discussed openly until after the result. Every major Brexiter explained that they would leave the EU with a deal ("We won't be leaving the Single Market" was touted a fair bit). They just don't like the deal they have, and can't actually be part of the SM like they claimed.

    *gasp*

    Could the Brexiters have lied? Or were they just poorly educated on what leaving the EU really meant?

    No more C&P party lines, or Catch Phrases With Random capital Letters. I think we'd all like to know what you actually mean with your claims. What, precisely, can the MPs who have 'stolen' their seats (which you've also provided no evidence or explanation for) do in your eyes to not be actively preventing Brexit?


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    #893
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,941 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    blinding wrote: »
    You have to admire the British People for Understanding that their Democracy is way More Important than the Eu .
    Nobody is asking them to place the EU at a higher scale than their own democracy 9if you can really compare the two).
    However, the UK's interpretation of democacy is fairly poor given.
    By what majority was the queen elected with?
    blinding wrote: »
    Because Without Democracy there is No Freedom .
    Did you get that quote from Braveheart?
    blinding wrote: »
    Not Respecting the Democratic Decision of the British people to Leave the Eu is far , far too Much of a Risk to Take With Democracy .
    As asked earlier, why hasn't the UK left the EU then?
    blinding wrote: »
    Love Democracy and the Freedom that Goes With It .
    But the UK is not as democratic as it believes.
    Do you love democracy when it has been proven to have been tampered with?


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    #894
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,941 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    blinding wrote: »
    The Prime Minister at the time and the Following Prime Minister told the People their Democratic Decision Would Be Implemented . The Second One at a General Election .
    Neither of the statements negate the fact that it was an advisory referendum!


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    #895
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Dytalus wrote: »
    In what way? I'm curious as to what, specifically, you think they should be doing instead to uphold the will of the people.

    Going into the referendum, there was no prospect of a No-Deal Brexit, so it's unreasonable to assume that's what the people voted for. It wasn't even discussed openly until after the result. Every major Brexiter explained that they would leave the EU with a deal. They just don't like the deal they have.

    So what, precisely, can the MPs who have 'stolen' their seats (which you've also provided no evidence or explanation for) do in your eyes to not be actively preventing Brexit?
    The British People Voted to leave the Eu . To be like the 168 Countries not in the Eu . They did not Vote to stay in the Eu .

    A Countries Democracy is way more Important than the Eu .:D


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    #896
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,941 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    blinding wrote: »
    The British People Voted to leave the Eu . To be like the 168 Countries not in the Eu . They did not Vote to stay in the Eu .
    Did those who voted to be like the 168 countries want to leave the single market?
    Did those who voted to be like the 168 countries want to leave the customs union?
    Did those who voted to be like the 168 countries actually get asked about the two above questions or was it a poorly worded referendum that is now having massive negative repurcussions on the UK?
    blinding wrote: »
    A Countries Democracy is way more Important than the Eu .:D
    What on earth does this actually mean?
    As I've previously said, the vote was not democratic.


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    #897
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    Neither of the statements negate the fact that it was an advisory referendum!
    Do you think that with the guarantees that were given to the British Electorate had the Vote been to Remain that they should then Leave .

    Two Prime Ministers and the Opposition Leader promised that the Referendum result would be Respected .

    What is it with Eu-Philes and Not Respecting Democracy ?

    Why Does the Eu Religion in Ireland Not Respect Democracy ?

    At the General Election 83% Voted for Parties that said they would Respect the Referendum Result .

    If Brexit Does not Happen in Britain then Respect for Democracy in Britain is Dead .


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    #898
    Dytalus
    Registered Users Posts: 459 ✭✭Dytalus


    blinding wrote: »
    The British People Voted to leave the Eu . To be like the 168 Countries not in the Eu . They did not Vote to stay in the Eu .

    A Countries Democracy is way more Important than the Eu .:D

    That's hardly 'specific' like I asked, and it doesn't address the fantasy leaving that the people were actually told they were voting for (leaving the EU but not the Single Market, among other things).

    But let's assume the people were voting for any kind of Brexit. Any kind of leaving the EU would be acceptable, given that the ideal Brexit promised was a lie, why haven't they left yet? They've activated article 50, the job is done. The EU can't keep them in any longer even if they wanted it.

    inb4 "eu-philes with stolen seats are Subverting Democracy :eek:"

    But you haven't actually explained what you mean by that. What do you mean by 'stolen seats'?

    What do you mean by 'subverting democracy'?

    They're trying to get the very same arrangement the people were promised in the lead up to referendum before leaving - isn't that the very definition of giving the people what they want? They promised a good deal before they would leave the EU. The people voted. And now they're trying to secure that deal.

    Should they have not gotten an extension and, as a result, lied to the people again by leaving without a deal? Or is it only subverting democracy when it's done against what you want, not versus what was promised?


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    #899
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    Did those who voted to be like the 168 countries want to leave the single market?
    Did those who voted to be like the 168 countries want to leave the customs union?
    Did those who voted to be like the 168 countries actually get asked about the two above questions or was it a poorly worded referendum that is now having massive negative repurcussions on the UK?


    What on earth does this actually mean?
    As I've previously said, the vote was not democratic.
    A Referendum followed by a General Election where 83% Voted for Parties that said they would Respect the Referendum result is not enough Democracy for Brexit for You . It doesn’t look like you are a Democrat . :eek: I assume you are a Eu-Phile .:eek:


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    #900
    Auguste Comte
    Registered Users Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭Auguste Comte


    blinding wrote: »
    The British People Voted to leave the Eu . To be like the 168 Countries not in the Eu . They did not Vote to stay in the Eu .

    A Countries Democracy is way more Important than the Eu .:D

    But that is not how "British democracy" works. The referendum was indicative only. Democracy comes from Parliament, what brexit have they voted for?


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    #901
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    I assume Boris Johnson will call a General election soon to get another Democratic Mandate for Brexit . I suppose there will be something wrong with that Democracy as well .

    The Eu Religion doesn’t seem to have a Respect for Democracy Tenet .


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