Aer Lingus Fleet/Routes Discussion

Jack1985 · 21-07-2019 11:18pm

tanya1987 wrote: »

I get u. But still even if the ratio sn cc on the 330 is cut permanently the neo wont get 2 sn. Max will be 1sn330 for 1cc extra on the neo (aka the 5th)

I would imagine for NEO they are looking along the lines of 1SN (acting SU), additional SN and 3 CCMs..

Jamie2k9 · 21-07-2019 11:19pm

Jack1985 wrote: »

Probably not wise to go in to detail here, but updated in regards to supervision levels (ratio of SN on-board to CC). The union are offering compromise for that ruling but coupled with a NEO agreement. So they are driving seat for two issues if that makes sense.

Do you mind referring to how EI have the upper hand here ?

In terms of minimum crew numbers onboard. It doesn't mean unions cant make things difficult and try get it changed and staff pack the job in. Had the B752s had 5 there would be no real dispute for crewing A321s. Management wouldn't suggest reducing it and unlikely unions would try for 6.

tanya1987 · 21-07-2019 11:20pm

Jack1985 wrote: »

I would imagine for NEO they are looking along the lines of 1SN (acting SU), additional SN and 3 CCMs..

Yeah however that won’t happen lol they’d be lucky to get 1sccm and 4cc even without acting

Jack1985 · 21-07-2019 11:26pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

In terms of minimum crew numbers onboard. It doesn't mean unions cant make things difficult and try get it changed and staff pack the job in. Had the B752s had 5 there would be no real dispute for crewing A321s. Management wouldn't suggest reducing it and unlikely unions would try for 6.

Jamie what you term as difficult is the workload balance of employed people in the company. The company themselves have admitted it increases workloads ''exorbitantly'' and have offered compromise in terms of a monetary value coupled with updated Business class service flow to the union.

They are off on a bad foot , they went to the LRC expecting the world recently and walked out ghost faced. The company have 4 extra J seats and 3 extra in economy coupled with overall lower operating costs, even with what they are offering they are still earning extra margin per seat and I have been told a 5th crew member wouldn't bring the situation to the 757 having the cost advantage the NEO still wins out. This is penny pinching which has reached ridiculous levels across the organisation (they've shown that for themselves at the start of these negotiations).

So your reference to EI have an upper hand is laughable.

tanya1987 wrote: »

Yeah however that won’t happen lol they’d be lucky to get 1sccm and 4cc even without acting

The current SN on the 757 acts as SU and receives payment for it. I am told they want another SN but wouldn't surprise me either if this changes to an additional CCM. The overall goal here is to get better agreement both in terms of workload and pay.

Locker10a · 21-07-2019 11:27pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

In terms of minimum crew numbers onboard. It doesn't mean unions cant make things difficult and try get it changed and staff pack the job in. Had the B752s had 5 there would be no real dispute for crewing A321s. Management wouldn't suggest reducing it and unlikely unions would try for 6.

I guess the issue is the NEO and 752 aren’t the same in terms of passengers ratio and work load. The NEO is more passengers and more work, particularly for Business class.

kevinandrew · 21-07-2019 11:35pm

Aer Lingus would probably be wise to agree to the introduction of a fifth crew member in the long term but it won't be without cost and like any sane business, Aer Lingus will want to recover that cost quite quickly. How the airline could go about that is something for staff and unions to consider.

As for who has the upper hand, big business *always* has the upper hand in the long term and Aer Lingus is big business.

liiga · 22-07-2019 12:36am

So a321neo are still down to be delivered on 23th tuesday ?

Locker10a · 22-07-2019 12:45am

liiga wrote: »

So a321neo are still down to be delivered on 23th tuesday ?

No the 26th subject (likely) to change

joeysoap · 22-07-2019 12:54am

Silly I know, but could they do 4 to BOS,EWR, and JFK and 5 for all other ( longer)

joeysoap · 22-07-2019 1:05am

tanya1987 wrote: »

I get u. But still even if the ratio sn cc on the 330 is cut permanently the neo wont get 2 sn. Max will be 1sn330 for 1cc extra on the neo (aka the 5th)

What is the ratio at the moment?

Tenger · 22-07-2019 1:14am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The ship has long saled for the union to kick up a fuss. The time for 5 agree or not was when the B752 deals was done.

If I remember correctly at the time (2012?) company stated that the B757 was being introduced in order to retain Shannon based crew base. At the time SNN was losing money for EI.
They stated that a demand for 5 crew would result in the base being closed and all B757 cabin crew being ASL employees. So the union caved in order to retain EI jobs.

The introduction of the A321LR to replace the B757s and the additional 10 airframes for expansion undercuts any threats of doom and gloom from EI mgmt. The A321LR is cheaper to operate than the B757 so EI are actually expecting higher profits after its introduction. (I cant see them passing on those savings to A321LR pax?)
If a single extra cc member is the difference between a viable or non-viable route, then they shouldnt be launching it in the first place.

As for 4 or 5 crew on certain routes. I would expect 5 are actually more important on the shorter routes in order to provide the same inflight service. High yield pax will expect the A321LR to offer the same service level as the A330. They wont get with 4 crew without screwing over the ppl in Economy.

EG. EI A320 has 4 crew and 174 seats. (Granted its a buy onboard service rather than full service)
A321LR will have 168 pax expecting full service, on top of the 16 Business Class punters who dont like having empty glasses or plates.

Locker10a · 22-07-2019 1:31am

joeysoap wrote: »

Silly I know, but could they do 4 to BOS,EWR, and JFK and 5 for all other ( longer)

I know where your coming from and there is some logic, but it’s actually the shortest flights where the extra pair of hands would work best in terms of speed of service, especially for business class passengers who want to maximum sleep.
EI need to be careful here, if they let business class standards slip, high yield passengers will jump to competitors who provide better service. Especially regulars who’ll want to rest and won’t want a meal service dragging on for hours being run by one crew member. EI indeed run the 757 with 4 crew, by comparison US carriers carry generally 5/6 crew for a transatlantic 757 flight.

kevinandrew · 22-07-2019 2:49am

Always worth remembering that ongoing lease costs will also be higher when talking about new aircraft, especially one in such demand as the A321LR, obviously IAG will have got a decent enough deal but even they can't defy the market rates.

Aer Lingus is also now set to have the full cost responsibility of the A321LR, that's likely a considerable increase over the current 757 arrangement but the increase in capacity, economies of scale, lower fuel and expanded network that the A321LR brings is designed to offset those higher initial costs in the long term.

The company will have forecast all the lease and operational costs, revenue growth, route profiles and fuel savings of the A321LR as part of their proposal to IAG, which will want to keep a very close eye on how their asset is being utilised. It makes business sense for Aer Lingus to want to maximise profitability on these new aircraft and prove to IAG it was a wise investment. If their models are saying its possible on four crew without noticeable disruption to inflight service, you'll have a very hard time convincing them otherwise, especially this late in the day.

If Aer Lingus eventually agree to a fifth crew member, I wouldn't expect it to happen before next summer. This year has been budgeted for.

cson · 22-07-2019 8:34am

Going to be very interested to see how they do with O&D for European J Class on routes the A321LRs will be placed on post US arrival (granted they'll be very limited). It'd be leaps and bounds ahead of the EuroBusiness ****e every legacy runs across Europe at the moment, even if its only the hard product.

LXFlyer · 22-07-2019 9:03am

cson wrote: »

Going to be very interested to see how they do with O&D for European J Class on routes the A321LRs will be placed on post US arrival (granted they'll be very limited). It'd be leaps and bounds ahead of the EuroBusiness ****e every legacy runs across Europe at the moment, even if its only the hard product.

I dunno - I might be biased given my username, but while the seat on LX (SWISS) is a standard seat, the service in their European Business Class puts the rest of the offerings in/out of Dublin to shame.

goingnowhere · 22-07-2019 10:06am

It will be interesting, but it will be limited, LHR, CDG the rest we don't know yet. But I'd imagine the first two flights of the day to LHR will be LR's.

BA and whats left of AF/CityJet should watch out

joeysoap · 22-07-2019 6:42pm

And they’ll have to have 5 on European routes 16+186 = 202?

kevinandrew · 22-07-2019 6:49pm

joeysoap wrote: »

And they’ll have to have 5 on European routes 16+186 = 202?

It's 184 in total, 168 + 16 is the configuration.

Four crew should be more than enough for a European sector.

adam88 · 22-07-2019 6:54pm

What I want to know is will this free up a frame for Vegas ??????

Sorry. I just couldn’t help myself

Hotblack Desiato · 22-07-2019 7:19pm

Irish Steve wrote: »

We don't know if they shut one engine down or not, either way, they had plenty to do before landing.

Engine 2 reverser deployed after landing so looks like they didn't actually shut it down?

Tenger · 22-07-2019 7:25pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There’s video on Instagram of the “birdstrike” with associated flames from no 2. Flames for a split second.

Correction received gang. When I got the chance I watched that video of the ATC comms.

My disdain towards the online article was more directed towards the writing;
"ATC confirmed flames...",
"....large aircraft"
"Airport Webcam tweeted..."

Just shoddy writing. With a little more tgought it could have been perfectly factual.

Cloudio9 · 22-07-2019 8:02pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Engine 2 reverser deployed after landing so looks like they didn't actually shut it down?

Also presumably would’ve declared a mayday if they lost an engine.

Idbatterim · 22-07-2019 8:18pm

Regarding the Vegas route , their getting a lot more frames. But please stop mentioning this route. It’s ridiculous talking about the fifth largest hub in Europe. having a three / four times weekly service to the eight largest airport in the us, and the gambling / conference capital of the world ...

L1011 · 22-07-2019 8:26pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

Regarding the Vegas route , their getting a lot more frames. But please stop mentioning this route. It’s ridiculous talking about the fifth largest hub in Europe in the us, having a three / four times weekly service to the eight largest airport in the us, and the gambling / conference capital of the world ...

This is your last warning to actually stop.

Van.Bosch · 22-07-2019 9:44pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

Regarding the Vegas route , their getting a lot more frames. But please stop mentioning this route. It’s ridiculous talking about the fifth largest hub in Europe. having a three / four times weekly service to the eight largest airport in the us, and the gambling / conference capital of the world ...

What metric is used to define Dublin as the 5th largest hub?

While LAS may be the 8th largest in terms of total pax, where does it rank in terms of international passengers?

munchkin_utd · 23-07-2019 9:53am

Van.Bosch wrote: »

What metric is used to define Dublin as the 5th largest hub?

I'd have to ask this too.

to start with, according to the irish times, Dublin had roughly 2million transfer passengers so its not massive to start with.

Looking outside of Ireland, airports with slightly less traffic have multiples of the amount of traffic but its hard to get all the info in one place, so I just looked around at what I could find
From Finland airport authority, 35% of passengers were transfer in Helsinki, so 8.75 million passengers.
Lisbon has 5million less passengers overall than Dublin, but over double the transfers at 4.6 million transfer passengers
Sure even Reykjavík which is WAY down the list in terms of overall traffic, is busier than Dublin (according to their authority) with 2.2 million transfer passengers last year, down from 4 the year before (when WOW was in full swing)

Thats 3 smaller airports that are busier. I dont even need to look at Amsterdam, Heathrow, Paris CDG, Munich, Frankfurt, Madrid to come up with another 6 which have to have way more transfers than Dublin, so thats at least 9 airports with more transfer business, before I waste any more time delving deeper.

Idbatterim · 23-07-2019 9:55am

When I refer to the fifth busiest in Europe , I’m referring to traffic from Dublin to North America. I have repeatedly seen that figure quoted in the media and possibly from Dublin airport on their website... I’m not sure if it’s accurate , but it sounds about right... where will have more? Heathrow, maybe gatwick. And possibly Frankfurt and schiphol?

L1011 · 23-07-2019 10:35am

I could and really should card all three of you for that. Anyone else after this will be.

There is to be no discussion, suggestion, hinting, whatever of a Vegas route until there is an announcement

Locker10a · 23-07-2019 10:36am

Back on topic, the entry into service for EI-LRA is rumoured to be 2nd of August

Nibs05 · 23-07-2019 10:39am

Locker10a wrote: »

Back on topic, the entry into service for EI-LRA is rumoured to be 2nd of August

Is delivery still this week, Friday is now what I’m hearing.

Aer Lingus Fleet/Routes Discussion

Comments