Talk about shooting yourself in the foot

nocoverart · 19-07-2019 09:40PM

I'm struggling to make a thumb about this, maybe because it's his foot.

Signore Fancy Pants · 19-07-2019 09:51PM

Heckler wrote: »

Can be many reasons for an accidental discharge. Guns are mechanical devices which can fail. Where I shoot the safety is never a given. Guns are unloaded while not on a firing line. Guns are never loaded when holstered. Obviously the Guards have a whole different way of operating. Its hard to see how it happened without negligence but there could be an innocent reason.

You are comparing range safety to an operational environment, two very different scenarios as I know you are aware.

Depending on the AGS Unit and duty, their SOP's will dictate their weapon state of readiness.

I know in the DF, it is refered to as a Negligent Discharge, never "accidental". These things happen but it is almost always down to weapons handling skills.

A mechanical failure suggests the safety catch wasnt working...but an AGS member shouldnt be squeezing the trigger while loaded to check. That is done during the safety precautions prior to loading....if they are doing it right.

People can become complacent when regularly handling a weapon, could have had a brain fart or muscle memory from being on the range, discipline goes out the window and a split second later, load...cock...safety...squeeze...theres a 9mm in your foot. Bad lesson to learn.

Mechanical failure? Doubt it.
User error? Most likely, nobody is perfect but when handling a weapon, you should be.

Poor bastard either way.

Heckler · 19-07-2019 10:37PM

Force Carrier and Phileas Fogg. Seriously. Educate yourselves on firearms. I've been shooting rifle and pistol for years. Yes some pistols don't come with an external safety !!! The Glock one of the most used law enforcement sidearms has none.

Heckler · 19-07-2019 10:38PM

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

You are comparing range safety to an operational environment, two very different scenarios as I know you are aware.

Depending on the AGS Unit and duty, their SOP's will dictate their weapon state of readiness.

I know in the DF, it is refered to as a Negligent Discharge, never "accidental". These things happen but it is almost always down to weapons handling skills.

A mechanical failure suggests the safety catch wasnt working...but an AGS member shouldnt be squeezing the trigger while loaded to check. That is done during the safety precautions prior to loading....if they are doing it right.

People can become complacent when regularly handling a weapon, could have had a brain fart or muscle memory from being on the range, discipline goes out the window and a split second later, load...cock...safety...squeeze...theres a 9mm in your foot. Bad lesson to learn.

Mechanical failure? Doubt it.
User error? Most likely, nobody is perfect but when handling a weapon, you should be.

Poor bastard either way.

Which is why I say the Guards operate differently. I wasn't comparing.

Heckler · 19-07-2019 10:44PM

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

You are comparing range safety to an operational environment, two very different scenarios as I know you are aware.

Depending on the AGS Unit and duty, their SOP's will dictate their weapon state of readiness.

I know in the DF, it is refered to as a Negligent Discharge, never "accidental". These things happen but it is almost always down to weapons handling skills.

A mechanical failure suggests the safety catch wasnt working...but an AGS member shouldnt be squeezing the trigger while loaded to check. That is done during the safety precautions prior to loading....if they are doing it right.

People can become complacent when regularly handling a weapon, could have had a brain fart or muscle memory from being on the range, discipline goes out the window and a split second later, load...cock...safety...squeeze...theres a 9mm in your foot. Bad lesson to learn.

Mechanical failure? Doubt it.
User error? Most likely, nobody is perfect but when handling a weapon, you should be.

Poor bastard either way.

The stories I've heard about members of AGS visiting my club with firearms would shock you. eg. a senior detective with a .38 who never loaded or shot it, came to the club and had to be shown how to shoot and unload it. Kept it in the bedside locker. Forgot to bring it with him half the time.

ED E · 19-07-2019 11:55PM

@Heckler I've heard tell from ex DFers of detectives (so not the ARU) coming onto a DF range to practice and being screamed off the range by the DF range officer (not sure what title they get in DF parlance) for waving the muzzle around like a water pistol.

Anecdotal, take it as you will.

Heckler · 20-07-2019 03:47AM

ED E wrote: »

@Heckler I've heard tell from ex DFers of detectives (so not the ARU) coming onto a DF range to practice and being screamed off the range by the DF range officer (not sure what title they get in DF parlance) for waving the muzzle around like a water pistol.

Anecdotal, take it as you will.

I believe it. And I've seen some beauties. Guy in camo with a 9mm putting up an Osama target. He was told to leave pretty fast. Some stories I've heard of people who should know better would put the heart across you. Ex DF, Ex AND current Garda. Because they think they know best. They don't.

Theres a reason shooting sports is the safest sport in Ireland. The diligence and care of the Range Officers, the general cop on of shooters and the knowledge that one accident will lead to a clamp down on the sport.

Shooting sports injuries in Ireland in the last 50 years: None

GAA injuries in the last 50 years:..........Pretty much uncountable.

ILoveYourVibes · 20-07-2019 04:52AM

poor guy

Manic Moran · 20-07-2019 05:19AM

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

I know in the DF, it is refered to as a Negligent Discharge, never "accidental". These things happen but it is almost always down to weapons handling skills.

A mechanical failure suggests the safety catch wasnt working...but an AGS member shouldnt be squeezing the trigger while loaded to check. That is done during the safety precautions prior to loading....if they are doing it right..

You partially contradict yourself. Or at least, DF policy, the latter of which is a bit narrow. It is possible to have an accidental discharge without any failure of weapons handling skills at all. For example, the M4 carbine used by the US Army suffered a rash of slamfires a while back. The mere act of chambering a round would discharge it, as the firing pin could have sufficient momentum to strike the primer.

The P226, if that’s what it was, is a well regarded sidearm, but it’s also a little old. I don’t know if you’ve handled well-used firearms, but when they get old and worn, anything can happen. The 1911s were known for rattling by the time they had been removed from service, I seem to recall the Irish BAPs had a similar problem.

Still, I agree with your last statement on the balance of probabilities. Unless a rare mechanical defect can be ruled in, negligence is most likely.

Manic Moran · 20-07-2019 05:33AM

Heckler wrote: »

Force Carrier and Phileas Fogg. Seriously. Educate yourselves on firearms. I've been shooting rifle and pistol for years. Yes some pistols don't come with an external safety !!! The Glock one of the most used law enforcement sidearms has none.

Technically it is an option. The glocks delivered for the new US Army trials had one, and the ones delivered to the Portuguese or Thai police forces had one equipped, as examples.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/06/27/glock-19-mhs-23-mhs-photos/

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/11/02/a-closer-look-at-the-glock-thumb-safety/

I agree that it is all but pointless, and more a liability in a service weapon, but the lawyers and risk averse don’t, and they are often the ones drawing up the tender requirements.

Signore Fancy Pants · 20-07-2019 08:11AM

Heckler wrote: »

The stories I've heard about members of AGS visiting my club with firearms would shock you. eg. a senior detective with a .38 who never loaded or shot it, came to the club and had to be shown how to shoot and unload it. Kept it in the bedside locker. Forgot to bring it with him half the time.

Yeah I have heard a few bad ERU stories from colleagues too. It's almost as if some of them don't appreciate what they are dealing with. Its ridiculous.

Signore Fancy Pants · 20-07-2019 08:14AM

ED E wrote: »

@Heckler I've heard tell from ex DFers of detectives (so not the ARU) coming onto a DF range to practice and being screamed off the range by the DF range officer (not sure what title they get in DF parlance) for waving the muzzle around like a water pistol.

Anecdotal, take it as you will.

Seen it myself in the past, mostly with old school Detectives. Poor weapons handling, limited range safety, loose rounds all over the place...including being stored in an eyeglass case, WTF like.

Signore Fancy Pants · 20-07-2019 08:37AM

Manic Moran wrote: »

You partially contradict yourself. Or at least, DF policy, the latter of which is a bit narrow. It is possible to have an accidental discharge without any failure of weapons handling skills at all. For example, the M4 carbine used by the US Army suffered a rash of slamfires a while back. The mere act of chambering a round would discharge it, as the firing pin could have sufficient momentum to strike the primer.

The P226, if that’s what it was, is a well regarded sidearm, but it’s also a little old. I don’t know if you’ve handled well-used firearms, but when they get old and worn, anything can happen. The 1911s were known for rattling by the time they had been removed from service, I seem to recall the Irish BAPs had a similar problem.

Still, I agree with your last statement on the balance of probabilities. Unless a rare mechanical defect can be ruled in, negligence is most likely.

I havent heard of an instance in the DF where a mechanical failure resulted in a discharge, however, Im not an Artificer so it is very possible but I have never heard of it. I suppose the exception would be the Gustav which you used in the past or a runaway belt on a GPMG, but its straying off the point.

I have used the 226 and have had no issues. Is this a common issue for the 226?

archer22 · 20-07-2019 09:14AM

KevRossi wrote: »

He'll get €100,000 compo oir that in a couple of years time, somehow it will be the fault of the State/taxpayer.

Yep even though he hasn't got a leg to stand on.

Irish Praetorian · 20-07-2019 10:26AM

So we know who shot the sheriff, the question that remains is who shot the deputy?

Force Carrier · 20-07-2019 10:58AM

Manic Moran wrote: »

Technically it is an option. The glocks delivered for the new US Army trials had one, and the ones delivered to the Portuguese or Thai police forces had one equipped, as examples.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/06/27/glock-19-mhs-23-mhs-photos/

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/11/02/a-closer-look-at-the-glock-thumb-safety/

I agree that it is all but pointless, and more a liability in a service weapon, but the lawyers and risk averse don’t, and they are often the ones drawing up the tender requirements.

Are you The Chieftain?

Manic Moran · 20-07-2019 11:20AM

Force Carrier wrote: »

Are you The Chieftain?

Yes

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

I havent heard of an instance in the DF where a mechanical failure resulted in a discharge, however, Im not an Artificer so it is very possible but I have never heard of it. I suppose the exception would be the Gustav which you used in the past or a runaway belt on a GPMG, but its straying off the point.

I have used the 226 and have had no issues. Is this a common issue for the 226?

I own a SiG, they really are good pistols. However, governments have a habit of not replacing service pistols until they are already falling apart. Not being familiar with the current state of Garda 226s, I can’t say what sort of s condition they are in, but, any firearm, no matter how well made, does have a service life after which it is questionable to make definitive statements as to what will or will not happen.

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot

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