Talk about shooting yourself in the foot

El_Bee

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/probe-launched-after-garda-accidentally-shoots-himself-in-the-foot-38327400.html

Probe launched after garda accidentally shoots himself in the foot

AN investigation is underway after a garda attached to specialist firearms unit accidentally shot himself in the foot.
<snip>

Our best and brightest at work

Mod note: Please only quote the relevant section of the article. Full articles posted from other sites cannot be posted in full.

Buford T. Justice

nuac

Accidents can happen.
It is sad that many Gaave to be armed to deal with certain situations and people

ED E

Seated in an ARV as the Brits call em? No way sidearm is doing that from a horizontal position on the leg. Gotta be an MP7 discharged on the chest rig. *Slow clap*

Sure they lost one of same before, great attention to detail they have.

DaveyDave

The safety was off and his finger was on the trigger inside a vehicle? That doesn't sound very smart.

Yer Da sells Avon

nuac wrote: »

Accidents can happen.

*extreme nasal voice*

Well actually, they're caused.

Odhinn

He's learnt to toe the line of firearm safety the hard way it seems.

Poor Uncle Tom

Lucky his foot wasn't in his mouth at the time.

Yer Da sells Avon

The officer, stationed in the south-west of the country, was injured after his weapon discharged while he was in a garda patrol vehicle.

They spelt veh-hicle wrong.

I wonder if the car was damaged, did they have to call a toe truck?

ToddyDoody

Literally.

Odhinn

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

They spelt veh-hicle wrong.

I wonder if the car was damaged, did they have to call a toe truck?

They could hardly be expected to foot it, given the circumstances.

ED E

DaveyDave wrote: »

The safety was off and his finger was on the trigger inside a vehicle? That doesn't sound very smart.

It most likely had a trigger safety too.

Yer Da sells Avon

Odhinn wrote: »

They could hardly be expected to foot it, given the circumstances.

Foot what? The Bill?

fineso.mom

I thought the title was a euphemism,but no, he literally shot himself in the foot.

kneemos

Where's the probe going?

Yer Da sells Avon

Can't believe people find this funny. You wouldn't be laughing if it was you who this happened toe.

kneemos

He shot the car as well presumably?

ED E

kneemos wrote: »

He shot the car as well presumably?

A toe does not stop an armour piercing steel round anyways (assuming an MP7)

Atlantic Dawn

The lads in the station will rip the pi$$ out of this person for life

KevRossi

He'll get €100,000 compo oir that in a couple of years time, somehow it will be the fault of the State/taxpayer.

NSAman

Yep Garda Compensation fund here we come.....

Buford T. Justice XIX

El_Bee wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/probe-launched-after-garda-accidentally-shoots-himself-in-the-foot-38327400.html






Our best and brightest at work

Mod note: Please only quote the relevant section of the article. Full articles posted from other sites cannot be posted in full.

Buford T. Justice

Mod note: Just to emphasise the above note, please limit quoting to the relevant section of the article in future.

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Buford T. Justice.

Force Carrier

KevRossi wrote: »

He'll get €100,000 compo oir that in a couple of years time, somehow it will be the fault of the State/taxpayer.

Don't think he'll be getting jack sh1t.
He obviously was not following safety procedures which would have formed part of his training. That means that the negligence is his and not the state's. Regardless of the extent of his injury he must show that someone else's negligence caused the injury in order to get money. Shoe's on the other foot etc.

Heckler

Not happy to see this but as a legal firearms holder of many years who gets thrown through the wringer by the Guards re firearms licensing its kinda funny.

I thought the armed Guards kept their guns in the boot till needed ? Maybe they carry a sidearm at all times dunno. Even a sidearm discharge holstered while seated would have the round skimming a thigh/knee not a foot. Ricochet who knows.

The Sig226 that I think they use doesn't have an external safety by design and doesn't make it unsafe but it smells like a bit of carelessness. Either way the poor bastard will be hounded by his collegues for all his days.

Or knowing this country he'll go to court for personal injury, emotional distress, deafness due to gunshot in an enclosed space, being taken the piss outta and inadequate firearms training. 200k. NEXT !

NSAman

Force Carrier wrote: »

Don't think he'll be getting jack sh1t.
He obviously was not following safety procedures which would have formed part of his training. That means that the negligence is his and not the state's. Regardless of the extent of his injury he must show that someone else's negligence caused the injury in order to get money. Shoe's on the other foot etc.

I'd say its flip flops at this stage....

Of course it will be negligence on the part of the State for purchasing firearms with "loose" safety catches.....

branie2

ouch!

Force Carrier

NSAman wrote: »

I'd say its flip flops at this stage....

Of course it will be negligence on the part of the State for purchasing firearms with "loose" safety catches.....

People have lost the run of themselves with this personal injury payout thing.
Behind the firoaree claims are lost every day. Even more people are turned down by solicitors who would take a case that has no chance. Shockingly there is also a lot of reasonably honest people out there who take responsibility for their own mistakes. The stuff on the other side makes the headlines.

The officer will have had to pull the trigger right back to the guard for his gun to discharge. Why was his finger even on the trigger? There is no way AGS or the state is liable for this accident. No solicitor would even run it.

Heckler

Force Carrier wrote: »

People have lost the run of themselves with this personal injury payout thing.
Behind the firoaree claims are lost every day. Even more people are turned down by solicitors who would take a case that has no chance. Shockingly there is also a lot of reasonably honest people out there who take responsibility for their own mistakes. The stuff on the other side makes the headlines.

The officer will have had to pull the trigger right back to the guard for his gun to discharge. Why was his finger even on the trigger? There is no way AGS or the state is liable for this accident. No solicitor would even run it.

Can be many reasons for an accidental discharge. Guns are mechanical devices which can fail. Where I shoot the safety is never a given. Guns are unloaded while not on a firing line. Guns are never loaded when holstered. Obviously the Guards have a whole different way of operating. Its hard to see how it happened without negligence but there could be an innocent reason.

Force Carrier

Heckler wrote: »

Guns are mechanical devices which can fail.

Describe a mechanical failure where there is an "accidental discharge" of a holstered gun and the cop's finger is not on the trigger.

Describe the mechanics of that.

Phileas Frog

What pistols do the Guards use? Most pistols don't have safety catches despite the nonsense posted above, though the member in question must have cocked the weapon as there was a round in the chamber.

Force Carrier

Phileas Frog wrote: »

What pistols do the Guards use? Most pistols don't have safety catches despite the nonsense posted above, though the member in question must have cocked the weapon as there was a round in the chamber.

If you had read the "nonsense above" someone already posted which gun they use - Sig226 and that it has no external safety catch.

The issue is that the garda was sitting in a moving vehicle. Does his training direct him to be loading his gun, drawing his gun, having his finger on the trigger while in the car? How will a so called accidental discharge occur if the gun is holstered?

elperello

It's easy to make light of a case like this but we should remember why this member of AGS and his colleagues are out there.

“We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.”

nocoverart

I'm struggling to make a thumb about this, maybe because it's his foot.

Signore Fancy Pants

Heckler wrote: »

Can be many reasons for an accidental discharge. Guns are mechanical devices which can fail. Where I shoot the safety is never a given. Guns are unloaded while not on a firing line. Guns are never loaded when holstered. Obviously the Guards have a whole different way of operating. Its hard to see how it happened without negligence but there could be an innocent reason.

You are comparing range safety to an operational environment, two very different scenarios as I know you are aware.

Depending on the AGS Unit and duty, their SOP's will dictate their weapon state of readiness.

I know in the DF, it is refered to as a Negligent Discharge, never "accidental". These things happen but it is almost always down to weapons handling skills.

A mechanical failure suggests the safety catch wasnt working...but an AGS member shouldnt be squeezing the trigger while loaded to check. That is done during the safety precautions prior to loading....if they are doing it right.

People can become complacent when regularly handling a weapon, could have had a brain fart or muscle memory from being on the range, discipline goes out the window and a split second later, load...cock...safety...squeeze...theres a 9mm in your foot. Bad lesson to learn.

Mechanical failure? Doubt it.
User error? Most likely, nobody is perfect but when handling a weapon, you should be.

Poor bastard either way.

Heckler

Force Carrier and Phileas Fogg. Seriously. Educate yourselves on firearms. I've been shooting rifle and pistol for years. Yes some pistols don't come with an external safety !!! The Glock one of the most used law enforcement sidearms has none.

Heckler

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

You are comparing range safety to an operational environment, two very different scenarios as I know you are aware.

Depending on the AGS Unit and duty, their SOP's will dictate their weapon state of readiness.

I know in the DF, it is refered to as a Negligent Discharge, never "accidental". These things happen but it is almost always down to weapons handling skills.

A mechanical failure suggests the safety catch wasnt working...but an AGS member shouldnt be squeezing the trigger while loaded to check. That is done during the safety precautions prior to loading....if they are doing it right.

People can become complacent when regularly handling a weapon, could have had a brain fart or muscle memory from being on the range, discipline goes out the window and a split second later, load...cock...safety...squeeze...theres a 9mm in your foot. Bad lesson to learn.

Mechanical failure? Doubt it.
User error? Most likely, nobody is perfect but when handling a weapon, you should be.

Poor bastard either way.

Which is why I say the Guards operate differently. I wasn't comparing.

Heckler

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

You are comparing range safety to an operational environment, two very different scenarios as I know you are aware.

Depending on the AGS Unit and duty, their SOP's will dictate their weapon state of readiness.

I know in the DF, it is refered to as a Negligent Discharge, never "accidental". These things happen but it is almost always down to weapons handling skills.

A mechanical failure suggests the safety catch wasnt working...but an AGS member shouldnt be squeezing the trigger while loaded to check. That is done during the safety precautions prior to loading....if they are doing it right.

People can become complacent when regularly handling a weapon, could have had a brain fart or muscle memory from being on the range, discipline goes out the window and a split second later, load...cock...safety...squeeze...theres a 9mm in your foot. Bad lesson to learn.

Mechanical failure? Doubt it.
User error? Most likely, nobody is perfect but when handling a weapon, you should be.

Poor bastard either way.

The stories I've heard about members of AGS visiting my club with firearms would shock you. eg. a senior detective with a .38 who never loaded or shot it, came to the club and had to be shown how to shoot and unload it. Kept it in the bedside locker. Forgot to bring it with him half the time.

ED E

@Heckler I've heard tell from ex DFers of detectives (so not the ARU) coming onto a DF range to practice and being screamed off the range by the DF range officer (not sure what title they get in DF parlance) for waving the muzzle around like a water pistol.

Anecdotal, take it as you will.

Heckler

ED E wrote: »

@Heckler I've heard tell from ex DFers of detectives (so not the ARU) coming onto a DF range to practice and being screamed off the range by the DF range officer (not sure what title they get in DF parlance) for waving the muzzle around like a water pistol.

Anecdotal, take it as you will.

I believe it. And I've seen some beauties. Guy in camo with a 9mm putting up an Osama target. He was told to leave pretty fast. Some stories I've heard of people who should know better would put the heart across you. Ex DF, Ex AND current Garda. Because they think they know best. They don't.

Theres a reason shooting sports is the safest sport in Ireland. The diligence and care of the Range Officers, the general cop on of shooters and the knowledge that one accident will lead to a clamp down on the sport.

Shooting sports injuries in Ireland in the last 50 years: None

GAA injuries in the last 50 years:..........Pretty much uncountable.

ILoveYourVibes

poor guy

Manic Moran

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

I know in the DF, it is refered to as a Negligent Discharge, never "accidental". These things happen but it is almost always down to weapons handling skills.

A mechanical failure suggests the safety catch wasnt working...but an AGS member shouldnt be squeezing the trigger while loaded to check. That is done during the safety precautions prior to loading....if they are doing it right..

You partially contradict yourself. Or at least, DF policy, the latter of which is a bit narrow. It is possible to have an accidental discharge without any failure of weapons handling skills at all. For example, the M4 carbine used by the US Army suffered a rash of slamfires a while back. The mere act of chambering a round would discharge it, as the firing pin could have sufficient momentum to strike the primer.

The P226, if that’s what it was, is a well regarded sidearm, but it’s also a little old. I don’t know if you’ve handled well-used firearms, but when they get old and worn, anything can happen. The 1911s were known for rattling by the time they had been removed from service, I seem to recall the Irish BAPs had a similar problem.

Still, I agree with your last statement on the balance of probabilities. Unless a rare mechanical defect can be ruled in, negligence is most likely.

Manic Moran

Heckler wrote: »

Force Carrier and Phileas Fogg. Seriously. Educate yourselves on firearms. I've been shooting rifle and pistol for years. Yes some pistols don't come with an external safety !!! The Glock one of the most used law enforcement sidearms has none.

Technically it is an option. The glocks delivered for the new US Army trials had one, and the ones delivered to the Portuguese or Thai police forces had one equipped, as examples.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/06/27/glock-19-mhs-23-mhs-photos/

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/11/02/a-closer-look-at-the-glock-thumb-safety/

I agree that it is all but pointless, and more a liability in a service weapon, but the lawyers and risk averse don’t, and they are often the ones drawing up the tender requirements.

Signore Fancy Pants

Heckler wrote: »

The stories I've heard about members of AGS visiting my club with firearms would shock you. eg. a senior detective with a .38 who never loaded or shot it, came to the club and had to be shown how to shoot and unload it. Kept it in the bedside locker. Forgot to bring it with him half the time.

Yeah I have heard a few bad ERU stories from colleagues too. It's almost as if some of them don't appreciate what they are dealing with. Its ridiculous.

Signore Fancy Pants

ED E wrote: »

@Heckler I've heard tell from ex DFers of detectives (so not the ARU) coming onto a DF range to practice and being screamed off the range by the DF range officer (not sure what title they get in DF parlance) for waving the muzzle around like a water pistol.

Anecdotal, take it as you will.

Seen it myself in the past, mostly with old school Detectives. Poor weapons handling, limited range safety, loose rounds all over the place...including being stored in an eyeglass case, WTF like.

Signore Fancy Pants

Manic Moran wrote: »

You partially contradict yourself. Or at least, DF policy, the latter of which is a bit narrow. It is possible to have an accidental discharge without any failure of weapons handling skills at all. For example, the M4 carbine used by the US Army suffered a rash of slamfires a while back. The mere act of chambering a round would discharge it, as the firing pin could have sufficient momentum to strike the primer.

The P226, if that’s what it was, is a well regarded sidearm, but it’s also a little old. I don’t know if you’ve handled well-used firearms, but when they get old and worn, anything can happen. The 1911s were known for rattling by the time they had been removed from service, I seem to recall the Irish BAPs had a similar problem.

Still, I agree with your last statement on the balance of probabilities. Unless a rare mechanical defect can be ruled in, negligence is most likely.

I havent heard of an instance in the DF where a mechanical failure resulted in a discharge, however, Im not an Artificer so it is very possible but I have never heard of it. I suppose the exception would be the Gustav which you used in the past or a runaway belt on a GPMG, but its straying off the point.

I have used the 226 and have had no issues. Is this a common issue for the 226?

archer22

KevRossi wrote: »

He'll get €100,000 compo oir that in a couple of years time, somehow it will be the fault of the State/taxpayer.

Yep even though he hasn't got a leg to stand on.

Irish Praetorian

So we know who shot the sheriff, the question that remains is who shot the deputy?

Force Carrier

Manic Moran wrote: »

Technically it is an option. The glocks delivered for the new US Army trials had one, and the ones delivered to the Portuguese or Thai police forces had one equipped, as examples.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/06/27/glock-19-mhs-23-mhs-photos/

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/11/02/a-closer-look-at-the-glock-thumb-safety/

I agree that it is all but pointless, and more a liability in a service weapon, but the lawyers and risk averse don’t, and they are often the ones drawing up the tender requirements.

Are you The Chieftain?

Manic Moran

Force Carrier wrote: »

Are you The Chieftain?

Yes

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

I havent heard of an instance in the DF where a mechanical failure resulted in a discharge, however, Im not an Artificer so it is very possible but I have never heard of it. I suppose the exception would be the Gustav which you used in the past or a runaway belt on a GPMG, but its straying off the point.

I have used the 226 and have had no issues. Is this a common issue for the 226?

I own a SiG, they really are good pistols. However, governments have a habit of not replacing service pistols until they are already falling apart. Not being familiar with the current state of Garda 226s, I can’t say what sort of s condition they are in, but, any firearm, no matter how well made, does have a service life after which it is questionable to make definitive statements as to what will or will not happen.