DART+ (DART Expansion)

strassenwo!f · 12-07-2019 09:05PM

Yes, of course it will be embarrassing for the powers that be to admit that they chose Saint Stephen's Green on the interconnector route, because the LUAS was there.

But I think most people now understand that they did what they did simply because the Irish people couldn't have worn a situation where an interconnector route via College Green wouldn't have met with the LUAS.

But now it could.

The interconnector could be built through Colllege Green. A nice big space, 6-8 lanes of traffic, which will soon be silent, if the city gets its way.

The metro could tie in with the DART Underground there.

And the LUAS is there now. Integration of many modes.

donvito99 · 12-07-2019 09:11PM

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Yes, of course it will be embarrassing for the powers that be to admit that they chose Saint Stephen's Green on the interconnector route, because the LUAS was there.

But I think most people now understand that they did what they did simply because the Irish people couldn't have worn a situation where an interconnector route via College Green wouldn't have met with the LUAS.

But now it could.

The interconnector could be built through Colllege Green. A nice big space, 6-8 lanes of traffic, which will soon be silent, if the city gets its way.

The metro could tie in with the DART Underground there.

And the LUAS is there now. Integration of many modes.

There is barely four lanes of traffic at college green

Dats me · 12-07-2019 10:00PM

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Yes, of course it will be embarrassing for the powers that be to admit that they chose Saint Stephen's Green on the interconnector route, because the LUAS was there.

But I think most people now understand that they did what they did simply because the Irish people couldn't have worn a situation where an interconnector route via College Green wouldn't have met with the LUAS.

But now it could.

The interconnector could be built through Colllege Green. A nice big space, 6-8 lanes of traffic, which will soon be silent, if the city gets its way.

The metro could tie in with the DART Underground there.

And the LUAS is there now. Integration of many modes.

As you've shown before you don't read any of the documents but look at the route options report on archive.metrolink.ie, they showed that there wasn't space for a station at college green.

SeanW · 12-07-2019 10:32PM

L1011 wrote: »

Maynooth Line alignment is so awful that any additional capacity that way for higher speed is going to have to be an 11 figure tunnel. There's absolutely no point trying to widen alongside the canal. Even if you somehow were able to remove the canal - never going to happen - it'd still be an awful alignment.

I don't agree - in the past Sligo trains used to be faster even with the poor alignment. I remember around 2005 or so, the 18:10 from Connolly ran express to Mullingar in 1 hour, 1 minute. Can't do that in less than an hour and a half or so now. Large part of that is that Sligo and Longford trains have to fit in between Maynooth trains on one track each direction. Grade separating the level crossings and adding an express track would be awesome. Expensive, but hopefully would not cost 11 figures. It would also allow more local peak hour service to/from Maynooth.

But CIE and Irish Rail need to start objecting to development on the non-canal side of this line.

Last Stop · 12-07-2019 11:50PM

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Yes, of course it will be embarrassing for the powers that be to admit that they chose Saint Stephen's Green on the interconnector route, because the LUAS was there.

But I think most people now understand that they did what they did simply because the Irish people couldn't have worn a situation where an interconnector route via College Green wouldn't have met with the LUAS.

But now it could.

The interconnector could be built through Colllege Green. A nice big space, 6-8 lanes of traffic, which will soon be silent, if the city gets its way.

The metro could tie in with the DART Underground there.

And the LUAS is there now. Integration of many modes.

Embarrassing to admit they planned integration between 2 and in future 3 modes of transport?!?
What utter crap.

The route was planned to go to SSG to integrate with Luas and metro but also serve the main shopping and business district.
This is exactly why there won’t be a station at Tara either. I know people are entitled to their opinions but there are some on here acting like experts without even a basic knowledge of transport planning and/or route selection.

The reality is that SSG will almost certainly be a station on the any form of DU even if it increases cost. This comes down to the basic fact that the decision to build the scheme will be based not on pure cost but on the cost benefit ratio and having a station at SSG significantly increases the benefits of the scheme through increased usage.

People need to realise that while yes the majority of these projects were/are planned on their own, TII/NTA now oversee all major transport projects in Ireland so the head guys in there know how projects interact with each other.

D.L.R. · 12-07-2019 11:51PM

SeanW wrote: »

I don't agree - in the past Sligo trains used to be faster even with the poor alignment. I remember around 2005 or so, the 18:10 from Connolly ran express to Mullingar in 1 hour, 1 minute. Can't do that in less than an hour and a half or so now. Large part of that is that Sligo and Longford trains have to fit in between Maynooth trains on one track each direction. Grade separating the level crossings and adding an express track would be awesome. Expensive, but hopefully would not cost 11 figures. It would also allow more local peak hour service to/from Maynooth.

But CIE and Irish Rail need to start objecting to development on the non-canal side of this line.

You could build a new line from Maynooth to Hazelhatch, and remove Sligo services to Heuston..

Last Stop · 12-07-2019 11:59PM

D.L.R. wrote: »

You could build a new line from Maynooth to Hazelhatch, and remove Sligo services to Heuston..

This would be a good shout! Even if just to preserve the path from future development to give that option in years to come

Qrt · 13-07-2019 12:17AM

D.L.R. wrote: »

You could build a new line from Maynooth to Hazelhatch, and remove Sligo services to Heuston..

Last Stop wrote: »

This would be a good shout! Even if just to preserve the path from future development to give that option in years to come

Just looked at a map, and it's not even that far!

Sam Russell · 13-07-2019 11:24AM

Last Stop wrote: »

This would be a good shout! Even if just to preserve the path from future development to give that option in years to come

Qrt wrote: »

Just looked at a map, and it's not even that far!

It might be better to go Maynooth to Adamstown which is about 8 km. Much better that Athenry to Tuam as a rail project.

D.L.R. · 13-07-2019 01:40PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

It might be better to go Maynooth to Adamstown which is about 8 km. Much better that Athenry to Tuam as a rail project.

Either way it would clear the Maynooth line for a high frequency "Metro" style service, so it makes the idea of a Metro-sized DU tunnel a workable option.

A full size tunnel would be great of course, but if it remains too much for the state to handle then it simply won't be built. I'd take a metro DU in 10-20 years over a mainline DU in 30-40.

When there's very little difference to the end user, its hard to justify the more expensive option.

Last Stop · 14-07-2019 08:27AM

D.L.R. wrote: »

Either way it would clear the Maynooth line for a high frequency "Metro" style service, so it makes the idea of a Metro-sized DU tunnel a workable option.

A full size tunnel would be great of course, but if it remains too much for the state to handle then it simply won't be built. I'd take a metro DU in 10-20 years over a mainline DU in 30-40.

When there's very little difference to the end user, its hard to justify the more expensive option.

But the tunnel wouldn’t be on the Maynooth line.

The tunnel is going to be the same size regardless it’s the stations that will change. It would be very foolish to spend near enough the same money (it’s still going to be €2bn+) on a half arsed job. If the money isn’t there to do the full thing then don’t do it until the money is there.

I still believe that a significant amount of value engineering can be done to reduce the costs without impacting the overall benefit of the scheme but reducing station sizes.

It’s mad to think that on this thread people are suggesting cutting the capacity of the system in half to save money while on the metro there ad people moaned for ages that the platforms wouldn’t be long enough.

Pete_Cavan · 14-07-2019 11:06AM

Last Stop wrote: »

But the tunnel wouldn’t be on the Maynooth line.

The tunnel is going to be the same size regardless it’s the stations that will change. It would be very foolish to spend near enough the same money (it’s still going to be €2bn+) on a half arsed job. If the money isn’t there to do the full thing then don’t do it until the money is there.

I still believe that a significant amount of value engineering can be done to reduce the costs without impacting the overall benefit of the scheme but reducing station sizes.

It’s mad to think that on this thread people are suggesting cutting the capacity of the system in half to save money while on the metro there ad people moaned for ages that the platforms wouldn’t be long enough.

Its not just capacity through the tunnel, its the capacity that the tunnel releases on the wider network. Metrolink and the modelling for it proves that frequency is key to maximising capacity, plus it makes the system more attractive as people just turn up at a station rather than having to time everything round a particular departure time.

100m DARTs at the highest possible frequency is not a half arsed job, it would have enormous benefits for the Northern, Maynooth and Kildare lines, the commuting populations for which are greatly increasing. Refusing to consider more feasible alternatives will just see the existing network overwhelmed and no other solutions available.

If it is ever going to happen, significant savings are going to have to be made from the original DU plan. The vast majority of the cost is made up of the tunnel and the stations, shortening the tunnel and the stations is where the savings are, anything else is a drop in the ocean.

D.L.R. · 14-07-2019 01:13PM

Last Stop wrote: »

But the tunnel wouldn’t be on the Maynooth line.

The tunnel is going to be the same size regardless it’s the stations that will change. It would be very foolish to spend near enough the same money (it’s still going to be €2bn+) on a half arsed job. If the money isn’t there to do the full thing then don’t do it until the money is there.

I still believe that a significant amount of value engineering can be done to reduce the costs without impacting the overall benefit of the scheme but reducing station sizes.

It’s mad to think that on this thread people are suggesting cutting the capacity of the system in half to save money while on the metro there ad people moaned for ages that the platforms wouldn’t be long enough.

A high frequency metro line wouldn't be a half arsed job, and could easily be configured to link to the Maynooth line.

It would be significantly cheaper and easier to build.

donvito99 · 14-07-2019 01:17PM

D.L.R. wrote: »

A high frequency metro line wouldn't be a half arsed job, and could easily be configured to link to the Maynooth line.

Correct, the Royal Canal, Drumcondra and Northern Line alignments could all easily be routed into a DU tunnel beginning at Spencer Dock.

D.L.R. · 14-07-2019 01:30PM

donvito99 wrote: »

Correct, the Royal Canal, Drumcondra and Northern Line alignments could all easily be routed into a DU tunnel beginning at Spencer Dock.

Exactly. Original DU completely wasted Spencer Dock's interchange potential.

ohographite · 16-07-2019 11:42PM

I'm unsure about this plan to utilize both lines from Connolly to Glasnevin for DART services(one from Connolly to Glasnevin via Drumcondra station, the other from Docklands to Glasnevin via no currently existing stations). I always thought about connecting the Docklands station to the line that goes through Drumcondra station, and running both DART routes on the same line until Glasnevin, as this would free up the line with no stations for the Sligo trains to run on quickly(with no frequent stopping DARTs getting in the way) until the lines merge in Glasnevin. If the Sligo trains passed Glasnevin just before the next DART did(on the other line) that should let the Sligo trains continue at speed most of the way to Maynooth. Does my idea have any complications?

bk · 17-07-2019 01:55PM

Last Stop wrote: »

The route was planned to go to SSG to integrate with Luas and metro but also serve the main shopping and business district.

The thing is the shape of the city has changed radically since the original Dublin Area transport plans were laid out.

SSG is definitely NOT the main business district any more! What major employers are around there other then a bunch of low height Victorian homes converted to solicitor offices.

No, clearly the central business district of Dublin is now the IFSC and increasingly stretching into the Docklands.

It is a very civil servant like opinion to think that SSG is the central business district. Makes sense since that area is mostly the Dail and other government offices.

I suppose it would be better to call that area the main government/civil district. Docklands is definitely the major business district now.

As for retail, the northern end of Grafton Street is much busier then the southern end and is seeing a lot more development.

I could still totally see SSG being used as it is a relatively easy place to stick a station. But SSG definitely isn't the key location today that it was 30 years ago and that should be taken into account for any redesign of DU.

We have already seen that with a much simpler station being put into SSG for Metrolink, then was previously envisaged for Metro North.

D.L.R. · 18-07-2019 01:51PM

ohographite wrote: »

If the Sligo trains passed Glasnevin just before the next DART did(on the other line) that should let the Sligo trains continue at speed most of the way to Maynooth. Does my idea have any complications?

You'd still be mixing mainline with Dart between Glasnevin and Maynooth, which is a pretty long way. The Sligo train would inevitably catch up with the Dart ahead.

If you sent Sligo trains to Heuston instead, or even through the PPT, they could avoid this section and take advantage of the quad track out of Heuston.

Last Stop · 18-07-2019 08:08PM

bk wrote: »

The thing is the shape of the city has changed radically since the original Dublin Area transport plans were laid out.

SSG is definitely NOT the main business district any more! What major employers are around there other then a bunch of low height Victorian homes converted to solicitor offices.

No, clearly the central business district of Dublin is now the IFSC and increasingly stretching into the Docklands.

It is a very civil servant like opinion to think that SSG is the central business district. Makes sense since that area is mostly the Dail and other government offices.

I suppose it would be better to call that area the main government/civil district. Docklands is definitely the major business district now.

As for retail, the northern end of Grafton Street is much busier then the southern end and is seeing a lot more development.

I could still totally see SSG being used as it is a relatively easy place to stick a station. But SSG definitely isn't the key location today that it was 30 years ago and that should be taken into account for any redesign of DU.

We have already seen that with a much simpler station being put into SSG for Metrolink, then was previously envisaged for Metro North.

SSG is the most southerner point of the route so if you don’t go there, you don’t serve the offices and businesses to the south of here (Harcourt area)
The interchange with Luas and Metro is also key. I would imagine that the will be DU across the northern side of the park with an entrance on each end so one for Luas and one from metro.

While I don’t envisage this being the key station (Heuston is more strategically important) I do envisage it being quite busy. Even after Luas cross city opened, there is still a huge demand for SSG Luas*.

Funnily enough I agree with you regarding the shift towards the Docklands which is why I think a GCD station would work better.

*brace for moan “Luas is slow and should have been underground” yawn

SeanW · 18-07-2019 08:13PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't DU to go specifically out towards the Docklands? Seems to me like Pearse and SSG are somewhat different issues.

The Mulk · 18-07-2019 08:18PM

Last Stop wrote: »

This would be a good shout! Even if just to preserve the path from future development to give that option in years to come

Extend it then from Hazel hatch to City west to pick up the red line, and then North from Maynooth to pick up Ashbourne, Swords and the Airport and on to the Dart line at Sutton.

Last Stop · 18-07-2019 09:08PM

SeanW wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't DU to go specifically out towards the Docklands? Seems to me like Pearse and SSG are somewhat different issues.

You’re correct. Apologies I was making reference to GCD and the google docks.

Last Stop · 18-07-2019 09:10PM

The Mulk wrote: »

Extend it then from Hazel hatch to City west to pick up the red line, and then North from Maynooth to pick up Ashbourne, Swords and the Airport and on to the Dart line at Sutton.

You’ve just changed a relatively simple 8km line which added significant benefits to the network to a multi billion euro project with little extra benefit from the original

The Mulk · 18-07-2019 09:32PM

Last Stop wrote: »

You’ve just changed a relatively simple 8km line which added significant benefits to the network to a multi billion euro project with little extra benefit from the original

I know it's pie in the sky. It would link the current Dart and the 2 "new" Dart lines, though.
I'd love a Maynooth to Hazel hatch link, with a stop just west of Celbridge village. There's plenty of land zoned residential on the route too.

bk · 19-07-2019 03:40PM

Last Stop wrote: »

SSG is the most southerner point of the route so if you don’t go there, you don’t serve the offices and businesses to the south of here (Harcourt area)
The interchange with Luas and Metro is also key. I would imagine that the will be DU across the northern side of the park with an entrance on each end so one for Luas and one from metro.

Honestly I don't think there are enough offices in Harcourt St or in the the area in general to justify it on there own.

A big issue with building at SSG is that it is a park, so it is quiet wasteful. An entire side of the station that takes up a lot of space can never be developed on. And even the buildings on the other side are mostly old listed Victorian buildings, so they will never be redeveloped or see any change from what they are today.

I mean people are already managing to get to the offices in that area without DU and the numbers working there aren't likely to change in future given the nature of the area.

As for Harcourt St, it is already well serviced by the Luas. People heading there could easily change from the DART to the Luas at a Tara St station. Luas is only a 2 minute walk away.

As for interchange with Metro and Luas, well Tara would still integrate both of those and would be even a better integration:
- Both of the future DART lines, the current one and future DU
- Metrolink
- Green Line Luas - 3 Minutes walk away
- Red Line Luas - 3 Minutes walk away (though awkward across the quays and river).
- All the various coach services that pass along the quays and have stops on the quays.
- All the DB bus routes 3 minutes away on O'Connell St.

Frankly it would become the single most important and well connected interchange in the city. Much more potential that SSG IMO.

But again, I'm not saying it will definitely happen. SSG seems an "easy" option, the curve to Tara might be too tight, where to put the station at Tara might be problematic, etc. But I definitely think it should be considered.

However I do want to mention that I don't think SSG is going to be as easy option as you imagine. For the original DU plan, they were going to tear SSG apart. Pull up mature trees, drain the ponds, etc.

That is going to face severe public opposition. Much worse then any Metrolink faced. I don't think that plan will fly at all now, what we "green" issues so politically sensitive.

I think you can see the NTA recognising that with their placement of the Metrolink station on SSG Road east, rather then in the park.

So I don't think the original DU SSG plan of using the park is a starter at all.

However if they do go with station boxes that only support 4 DART carriages, then by my measurements, they could fit a station in on the road to the north of SSG, without taking the part or severing the green line. Looks like you got about 230 meters there to play with. Probably more like 200 meters realistically.

I suspect the redesigned DU will end up looking quite different from what was first proposed.

Last Stop · 19-07-2019 04:04PM

bk wrote: »

Honestly I don't think there are enough offices in Harcourt St or in the the area in general to justify it on there own.

A big issue with building at SSG is that it is a park, so it is quiet wasteful. An entire side of the station that takes up a lot of space can never be developed on. And even the buildings on the other side are mostly old listed Victorian buildings, so they will never be redeveloped or see any change from what they are today.

I mean people are already managing to get to the offices in that area without DU and the numbers working there aren't likely to change in future given the nature of the area.

As for Harcourt St, it is already well serviced by the Luas. People heading there could easily change from the DART to the Luas at a Tara St station. Luas is only a 2 minute walk away.

As for interchange with Metro and Luas, well Tara would still integrate both of those and would be even a better integration:
- Both of the future DART lines, the current one and future DU
- Metrolink
- Green Line Luas - 3 Minutes walk away
- Red Line Luas - 3 Minutes walk away (though awkward across the quays and river).
- All the various coach services that pass along the quays and have stops on the quays.
- All the DB bus routes 3 minutes away on O'Connell St.

Frankly it would become the single most important and well connected interchange in the city. Much more potential that SSG IMO.

But again, I'm not saying it will definitely happen. SSG seems an "easy" option, the curve to Tara might be too tight, where to put the station at Tara might be problematic, etc. But I definitely think it should be considered.

However I do want to mention that I don't think SSG is going to be as easy option as you imagine. For the original DU plan, they were going to tear SSG apart. Pull up mature trees, drain the ponds, etc.

That is going to face severe public opposition. Much worse then any Metrolink faced. I don't think that plan will fly at all now, what we "green" issues so politically sensitive.

I think you can see the NTA recognising that with their placement of the Metrolink station on SSG Road east, rather then in the park.

So I don't think the original DU SSG plan of using the park is a starter at all.

However if they do go with station boxes that only support 4 DART carriages, then by my measurements, they could fit a station in on the road to the north of SSG, without taking the part or severing the green line. Looks like you got about 230 meters there to play with. Probably more like 200 meters realistically.

I suspect the redesigned DU will end up looking quite different from what was first proposed.

The problem is that Tara st won’t be able to handle the pressure from all services interchanging there.
While I can see your point regarding oversize development, you could argue that the benefit of putting it in the park is no need to knock any buildings etc.

The Metrolink station is 50/50 in the park based on the recent Public consultation so I don’t foresee that being an issue. There will significantly less disruption than previously planned.

Pete_Cavan · 19-07-2019 04:41PM

Last Stop wrote: »

The problem is that Tara st won’t be able to handle the pressure from all services interchanging there.

I wish you would stop stating this as if it was a fact. Tara Street station will have the most scope for interchange capacity: the DART station already has two entrances, the Metrolink station will have two entrances and will be located on a plaza with space available. It is the city centre location with the most scope for interchange facilities.

Pete_Cavan · 19-07-2019 04:51PM

bk wrote: »

However if they do go with station boxes that only support 4 DART carriages, then by my measurements, they could fit a station in on the road to the north of SSG, without taking the part or severing the green line. Looks like you got about 230 meters there to play with. Probably more like 200 meters realistically.

The only way you get close to 200m is if you remove the Green Line turnback which is unlikely to be acceptable.

The main thing that would influence the amount of SSG part needed were a station to be located there is tunnel alignment and curvature. It may not be possible to align a station predominantly under a road, the previous station will dictate everything.

Equium · 19-07-2019 05:35PM

bk wrote: »

The thing is the shape of the city has changed radically since the original Dublin Area transport plans were laid out.

SSG is definitely NOT the main business district any more! What major employers are around there other then a bunch of low height Victorian homes converted to solicitor offices.

No, clearly the central business district of Dublin is now the IFSC and increasingly stretching into the Docklands.

It is a very civil servant like opinion to think that SSG is the central business district. Makes sense since that area is mostly the Dail and other government offices.

I suppose it would be better to call that area the main government/civil district. Docklands is definitely the major business district now.

As for retail, the northern end of Grafton Street is much busier then the southern end and is seeing a lot more development.

I could still totally see SSG being used as it is a relatively easy place to stick a station. But SSG definitely isn't the key location today that it was 30 years ago and that should be taken into account for any redesign of DU.

We have already seen that with a much simpler station being put into SSG for Metrolink, then was previously envisaged for Metro North.

The Docklands have obviously become a/the major business district, especially in terms of tech companies, but you are very much underestimating the number of major employers located within a short walk of St Stephens Green.

Company: Employees: Note: Location: Walking time from SSG North
Indeed 850 St. Stephens Green 5 mins
KPMG 750 St. Stephens Green 5 mins
Deloitte 1800 Hatch Street 10 mins
Aviva 900 Hatch Street 10 mins
Mercer 250 Charlemont Street 15 mins
Ernst and Young 1500 Harcourt Street 10 mins
Slack 100 Hatch Street 10 mins
Zendesk 300 Charlemont Place 15 mins
LinkedIn 2000 By 2020 Wilton Place 15 mins
Barclays 300 By 2020 Molesworth Street 5 mins
TCD 2000 Nassau Street 10 mins

That is over 10,000 employees across only a handful of companies within a 15 minute walk of a DART Underground station at SSG North. There are many thousands more working elsewhere in the area. The new developments at Charlemont Square and Harcourt Road will probably add several thousand new jobs to that total as well, especially seeing as Amazon has agreed to lease a lot of space there.

In my own opinion, a DART link between this area and the Docklands is actually even more important now than it was when plans were first put forward. The line will, in addition to transporting commuters to the heart of the action, also connect Dublin's two major economic drivers

Pete_Cavan · 19-07-2019 05:56PM

DU is about releasing additional capacity on the existing heavy rail network and providing interchange possibilities with existing and planned light rail services, creating a proper network. Talk about works served at a particular location completely misses the point, particularly when said location is/will very well served by public transport.

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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