NBP part II

oscarBravo · 18-07-2019 12:31pm

clohamon wrote: »

Justine McCarthy of the Sunday Times was sitting in the audience. Not sure what she made of it.

That's who that was. I knew I recognised her, but couldn't place her.

plodder · 18-07-2019 12:43pm

The taoiseach was on Sean O'Rourke this morning and the NBP came up. He repeated the line about Eir not making an offer, what they were proposing being inferior, and wanting the best for rural Ireland etc. It looks like nobody in the media, or the commentators who were previously opposed to the NBP, are stepping up to question this line. He also said when asked should consultants be asked to look at the Eir proposal, that there were very few consultants who haven't looked at it.

So, it looks to me like Eir's gambit has failed and the plan will go ahead. I wonder now if Eir simply over-priced the dark fibre product, as two of the bidders claimed it was cheaper for them to not use it, and maybe that explains why their NBP bid was so expensive. If so, was this a serious miscalculation by Eir?

tsue921i8wljb3 · 18-07-2019 1:02pm

Ush1 wrote: »

Would this include urban areas?

I assume it would include some (all) of the urban premises that are in the intervention area.

tsue921i8wljb3 · 18-07-2019 1:16pm

Some NBI job vacancies appearing including Network Design Manager and Network Build Manager both of which have been online for only two weeks.

https://ie.linkedin.com/jobs/search?keywords=NBI&location=Ireland

fieldofsheep · 18-07-2019 2:11pm

Meanwhile in Australia...

https://independentaustralia.net/business/business-display/blame-the-government-not-netflix-for-nbn-failure,12909

An example of what happens when an all-fibre (or close to all-fibre) rollout gets diluted down to a hodge-podge of technical solutions, most of them sub-par. I think the government were put in an uneviable situation when what looked like the two major players (SIRO and Eir) dropped out of the procurement process, but I think they've done well to stay the course in repsonse to Eir and Rispa responses that they could do it cheaper by gutting the spec (when Eir had already submitted an indicative price similar to the GMC offer)

I think the government could benefit from carrying out and publishing some research into what sort of society we could build with a reliable high speed fibre network across the country, similar to what the Australians did a few years back when they set up the Institute for a Broadband Enabled Society: https://networkedsociety.unimelb.edu.au/archived-pages/ibes

babi-hrse · 18-07-2019 9:05pm

Mortelaro wrote: »

These reels have appeared on ESB poles in Arklow all over the place,they're hardly Siro are they?

They would be siro

tsue921i8wljb3 · 19-07-2019 12:14am

Eir remind me of a spoiled child when they get a sweet. When they get the sweet, the child doesn’t want it and when you give the sweet to somebody else the child starts crying and wants the sweet back

Let's start taunting them Michael. That seems a good idea. What could possibly go wrong.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/eir-behaviour-in-rural-broadband-like-that-of-spoiled-child-says-ring-1.3960921

Pique · 19-07-2019 12:34am

He has a point.

Although I always called that the "dog with a bone" scenario.

The Cush · 19-07-2019 1:39am

plodder wrote: »

The taoiseach was on Sean O'Rourke this morning and the NBP came up. He repeated the line about Eir not making an offer, what they were proposing being inferior, and wanting the best for rural Ireland etc. It looks like nobody in the media, or the commentators who were previously opposed to the NBP, are stepping up to question this line. He also said when asked should consultants be asked to look at the Eir proposal, that there were very few consultants who haven't looked at it.

So, it looks to me like Eir's gambit has failed and the plan will go ahead. I wonder now if Eir simply over-priced the dark fibre product, as two of the bidders claimed it was cheaper for them to not use it, and maybe that explains why their NBP bid was so expensive. If so, was this a serious miscalculation by Eir?

Timmy was on Morning Ireland earlier that morning, still pushing the eir proposal and that the Dept should've done a more in depth analysis using outside consultants, a question which was put to Leo later that morning by Sean O'Rourke.

Timmy appears resigned to the fact that his committee's investigation will have no effect on the on going NBP process, looks like the government encouraged them to proceed with the investigation - down a one-way cul-de-sac -, to keep them occupied/distracted, while the real work of contract negotiation was continuing back on the main road.

Have they invited anyone else for next week, the committee meets again next Tue at 2pm, no details yet.

https://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/html5/#/radio1/21587660

Leo on with SOR (NBP discussion starts 29:50mins) - https://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/html5/#/radio1/21589032

KOR101 · 19-07-2019 8:06am

Is any legislation needed? Or, can they just sign the contract.

He challenged Fianna Fail party leader Michael Martin to state whether the party was going to support the Fine Gael-led government when they sign the contract.

“We’re about to sign that contract. Are they going to support us on that contract,” he asked.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/michael-ring-eir-behaving-like-spoiled-child-over-rural-broadband-contract-938056.html

heavydawson · 19-07-2019 9:14am

KOR101 wrote: »

Is any legislation needed? Or, can they just sign the contract.

He challenged Fianna Fail party leader Michael Martin to state whether the party was going to support the Fine Gael-led government when they sign the contract.

“We’re about to sign that contract. Are they going to support us on that contract,” he asked.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/michael-ring-eir-behaving-like-spoiled-child-over-rural-broadband-contract-938056.html

I'd say Martin is secretly delighted. He won't be blamed for any cost overruns, but he can claim credit if FF regain power over the next 5-7 years and the rollout goes well. No more than FG relish dropping FF in it any time the housing crisis is brought up and who's to blame (including on the SOR show yesterday!)

Don't believe any new legislation needed. Just the contract. Would be very symbolic to have it done at ploughing championships, but we'll see how the timing works out.

KOR101 · 19-07-2019 10:01am

heavydawson wrote: »

Would be very symbolic to have it done at ploughing championships, but we'll see how the timing works out.

Yes, it would be funny if the first deadline in the procurement process to be met was the last one in the process.

The Cush · 19-07-2019 10:18am

KOR101 wrote: »

Is any legislation needed? Or, can they just sign the contract.

Probably not to sign the contract but the National Broadband Plan Bill is awaiting publication and was part of the government's summer legislative programme.

The Bill is to provide statutory powers in relation to the National Broadband Plan.

Orebro · 19-07-2019 11:05am

With Timmys behaviour on this FF have lost me and my family as voters, for life.

rodge123 · 19-07-2019 11:07am

Orebro wrote: »

With Timmys behaviour on this FF have lost me and my family as voters, for life.

Me too, and unless the rollout is signed and started before next election FG will be the same for me!

Pique · 19-07-2019 11:09am

Southpark has forever ruined me. I can not see the name "Timmy" written down without thinking "Timmaaayyy".

I'm in my 40's FFS.

careless sherpa · 19-07-2019 5:47pm

heavydawson wrote: »

I'd say Martin is secretly delighted. He won't be blamed for any cost overruns, but he can claim credit if FF regain power over the next 5-7 years and the rollout goes well. No more than FG relish dropping FF in it any time the housing crisis is brought up and who's to blame (including on the SOR show yesterday!)

Don't believe any new legislation needed. Just the contract. Would be very symbolic to have it done at ploughing championships, but we'll see how the timing works out.

Is that correct though as I think FF have played this very very badly. If it goes ahead and goes well it is very clearly a FG scheme. FF have been seen to try and scupper it. I can not see why they let timmy loose in relation to it as he comes across terribly poorly

The Cush · 19-07-2019 6:01pm

The Cush wrote: »

Have they invited anyone else for next week, the committee meets again next Tue at 2pm, no details yet.

Private meeting next Tuesday, no other committee meetings scheduled for next week.

Has the public part concluded, are they now compiling the report as was the original plan after 6 weeks of public meetings?

heavydawson · 20-07-2019 8:34am

careless sherpa wrote: »

Is that correct though as I think FF have played this very very badly. If it goes ahead and goes well it is very clearly a FG scheme. FF have been seen to try and scupper it. I can not see why they let timmy loose in relation to it as he comes across terribly poorly

FF have only been trying to scupper the cost side of things. Timmy hasn't been pushing to scrap the general principle of the NBP (rural broadband), only the final implementation and associated cost. He's in opposition. That's what they do. I agree he really needed to be consistent in his arguments though. As soon as one approach he favoured was debunked, he hopped to plan C, etc.

clohamon · 21-07-2019 1:27pm

Just looking at a particular spot in Kerry from Department's current map and how encroachment can really play havoc with the viability at a micro level.

Original 300K in light blue and now showing dark blue availability.
Houses with green arrows are now also showing availability on Airwire checker.
House with red arrow is showing not available on Airwire checker.

Marlow · 21-07-2019 2:05pm

If the house is more than 150m off the main road, it will typically be left out by OpenEir. That was part of their design.

Very few exceptions were made.

/M

clohamon · 21-07-2019 3:22pm

Marlow wrote: »

If the house is more than 150m off the main road, it will typically be left out by OpenEir. That was part of their design.

Very few exceptions were made.

/M

Yes, but from NBI point of view they would have had a mini-cluster of five premises. Now they've just got one - the hardest, and they have to bring their own fibre all the way to it.

tsue921i8wljb3 · 21-07-2019 3:32pm

clohamon wrote: »

Yes, but from NBI point of view they would have had a mini-cluster of five premises. Now they've just got one - the hardest, and they have to bring their own fibre all the way to it.

Yes. It is completely ridiculous from any objective point of view. The existing open eir (dark) fibre was the obvious solution but that is not happening it seems.

Johnboy1951 · 21-07-2019 4:48pm

I do not put the blame for such as this on the NBI, but squarely on Eir who did this type of thing deliberately.

Pity such premises have to be included in the NBP ..... if only Eircom could be forcd to provide service to them at reasonable cost it would make the NBP much easier to manage IMO.

wexfordman2 · 21-07-2019 5:16pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I do not put the blame for such as this on the NBI, but squarely on Eir who did this type of thing deliberately.

Pity such premises have to be included in the NBP ..... if only Eircom could be forcd to provide service to them at reasonable cost it would make the NBP much easier to manage IMO.

Unless nbi could pay eir to extend into these areas I wonder?

Johnboy1951 · 21-07-2019 5:53pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Unless nbi could pay eir to extend into these areas I wonder?

That would get complicated ..... would mean using parts of eir fibre .... who would be responsible for connection and other facets of an ongoing commercial service?

KOR101 · 21-07-2019 6:32pm

Pat Rabbitte in the SBP.

Orebro · 21-07-2019 7:58pm

Have to agree with Pat Rabitte here - history is not going to smile on Timmy Dooley when this is all done and dusted.

babi-hrse · 21-07-2019 8:44pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

That would get complicated ..... would mean using parts of eir fibre .... who would be responsible for connection and other facets of an ongoing commercial service?

Unless there was a third party service of electrical civil contractors to run ducting and fibre up to a point with eir to provide a joint box at edge of property.

I've seen a few manor houses on huge private lands where it's just about 800m in and the dp is at the entrance. Most are willing to pay for it but can't get past the survey stage due to distance just gets failed for planning which is almost guaranteed to go nowhere as it's all for the benefit of 1 private resident and not actually a network issue.
There are people who do this but it really should be a viable offer. Premises should be included but have their own solution if they live in difficult geography on private property. Maybe a airtight waterproof joint box half way up where cable could be coupled with a sc/APC connector and network side fibre ran and plugged in to there.
I'm sure a few ex telecom staff could start up one.

tsue921i8wljb3 · 22-07-2019 4:05pm

The Cush wrote: »

Private meeting next Tuesday, no other committee meetings scheduled for next week.

Has the public part concluded, are they now compiling the report as was the original plan after 6 weeks of public meetings?

Apparently the Committee members are to be asked tomorrow if they support the Government's position but Fianna Fail are looking to delay the final conclusions.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/tds-question-rural-broadband-timeline-938501.html

The Cush · 22-07-2019 4:34pm

Emmanuel Lemon Louse wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/tds-question-rural-broadband-timeline-938501.html

Another area highlighted was the amount of money going towards renting equipment for connections over the lifetime of the NBI deal. The committee also addressed noted that a large element of the the project cost is the rent projected to be paid to Eir for the use of its poles and ducts — an estimated €900m over 25 years.

“Concern was expressed that a major element of the subsidy was a public reinvestment in Eir’s private pole and duct network,” said the report.

This is the same eir who Timmy said should get the contract for rural broadband.

This is the same eir who said they will be charging the full regulated pricing for pole and duct access to the NBPco.

Falconire · 22-07-2019 5:47pm

clohamon wrote: »

Just looking at a particular spot in Kerry from Department's current map and how encroachment can really play havoc with the viability at a micro level.

Original 300K in light blue and now showing dark blue availability.
Houses with green arrows are now also showing availability on Airwire checker.
House with red arrow is showing not available on Airwire checker.

Similar thing for me, Eir have fiber both sides of my house but did not cover 6 houses and 1 school. Houses in red and the school in green.

westyIrl · 22-07-2019 7:49pm

Emmanuel Lemon Louse wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/tds-question-rural-broadband-timeline-938501.html

The committee’s draft report says that members are “concerned that the eventual roll-out time for the whole intervention area is a long time for people to wait for broadband, and questioned whether a mixed model of partial fibre could deliver full broadband coverage faster”.

Oh sweet Jesus; Noooo! This where they can learn a lesson from the Australians and see what a disasterous decision it was for them to try to water down the cost by a relatively neglible amount by going with a MTM(Multi Technology Mix) solution.

https://thenewdaily.com.au/life/tech/2019/05/16/nbn-national-disaster/

Jim

plodder · 23-07-2019 9:48am

Falconire wrote: »

Similar thing for me, Eir have fiber both sides of my house but did not cover 6 houses and 1 school. Houses in red and the school in green.

It beggars belief to think it makes sense to run new fibre into these areas just to cover tiny pockets like that. There has to be some deal to be done with eir to fill in these gaps at least.

clohamon · 23-07-2019 9:59am

Falconire wrote: »

Similar thing for me, Eir have fiber both sides of my house but did not cover 6 houses and 1 school. Houses in red and the school in green.

Did you check the eircodes of the abandoned houses/school and feed them into the airwire FTTH availability checker?

https://finder.eircode.ie/#/
https://www.airwire.ie/index.php/avail

Orebro · 23-07-2019 11:30am

plodder wrote: »

It beggars belief to think it makes sense to run new fibre into these areas just to cover tiny pockets like that. There has to be some deal to be done with eir to fill in these gaps at least.

Isn't that whats causing so much aggro in rural Ireland - the country is full of pockets like this!

I absolutely believe this was done by Eir on purpose.

JasonRyan · 23-07-2019 11:56am

Orebro wrote: »

Isn't that whats causing so much aggro in rural Ireland - the country is full of pockets like this!

I absolutely believe this was done by Eir on purpose.

I think so too.
Case in point on the screenshot below.

The roads in this area form a triangle if you can imagine that.
The left and right sides of this triangle have full FTTH coverage.
The base of it, there is a gap of less than 500m not covered - the road is just shy of 1km long...

For the road that forms the base of the triangle the fibre and DP's were ran along the road (left side of image) a couple of hundren meters, as well on the top of the road (right side of image) a few hundren meters.
Leaving a gap of less than 500 meters not covered.
With 3 houses left out - their Eircodes fail for FTTH.
The road only has 12 houses in total, so for 9 it's happy days, the other 3, not so much.
Why this was planned this way, God only knows.
I asked the crews putting the fibre and DP's up why the fibre would't just cover the length of the road.
The different crews all though it mad that a section was being left out, but couldn't do any more as "it's that way on the works/plannng jobsheet"

plodder · 23-07-2019 2:49pm

Orebro wrote: »

Isn't that whats causing so much aggro in rural Ireland - the country is full of pockets like this!

I absolutely believe this was done by Eir on purpose.

Whatever the reason for it, I'm just saying that, looking forward, even if NBI is not going to use Eir's dark fibre, only their poles and ducts, there has to be many cases like this, where it makes more sense to come to some agreement where they get served by Openeir rather than NBI.

westyIrl · 23-07-2019 6:02pm

plodder wrote: »

Whatever the reason for it, I'm just saying that, looking forward, even if NBI is not going to use Eir's dark fibre, only their poles and ducts, there has to be many cases like this, where it makes more sense to come to some agreement where they get served by Openeir rather than NBI.

I'd imagine the problem NBI may have in such instances is that OpenEir have them over a barrel. Further, OpenEir have no reason to reach out the olive branch and every reason to leverage the situation for all it's worth as OpenEir want them same subscribers. As ludicruous as it may sound, running parallel fibre to serve just a single dwelling may be the only realistic solution. I'd wager OpenEir may start to connect up these sporadic dwellings once they see NBI coming their way. They are now the low hanging fruit for OpenEir. Encroachment payments will be significant should that happen. The effects of loss of stake in the network by the state is really coming home to roost.

Jim

heavydawson · 23-07-2019 6:34pm

westyIrl wrote: »

I'd imagine the problem NBI may have in such instances is that OpenEir have them over a barrel. Further, OpenEir have no reason to reach out the olive branch and every reason to leverage the situation for all it's worth as OpenEir want them same subscribers. As ludicruous as it may sound, running parallel fibre to serve just a single dwelling may be the only realistic solution. I'd wager OpenEir may start to connect up these sporadic dwellings once they see NBI coming their way. They are now the low hanging fruit for OpenEir. Encroachment payments will be significant should that happen. The effects of loss of stake in the network by the state is really coming home to roost.

Jim

Perhaps, but the subsidy that will be available to the bidder is part of the overall €545 million contingency set aside by the government.

Under the terms of the contract, NBI will be entitled to compensation for “encroachment” if other operators provide broadband to any of the 540,000 premises, in instances where the department determines it has “a negative impact on NBI’s business case”.

The subsidy that will be available to the bidder is part of the overall €545 million contingency set aside by the government.

The contingency fund can only be drawn down in 14 specific circumstances, and can only be sought by NBI where additional unanticipated costs have been proven to have occurred.

However, the Department of Communications has refused to outline the terms under which compensation will apply, citing commercial sensitivity.

It is unclear whether an operator would only have to make broadband available to a premises for compensation to be payable or whether the customer would have to be connected to a network before NBI could seek payment.

“One of the specific capped subsidy categories that has been set aside relates to the potential for commercial operator encroachment in the intervention area post contract award.

“The amount of subsidy as well as the specific terms and conditions under which NBI may seek access to this encroachment subsidy are commercially sensitive as, for example, it could influence commercial operator actions in the wider market,” a spokesman said.

The department has also declined to outline how much of the €545 million contingency has been set aside to compensate NBI for encroachment.

From: https://www.businesspost.ie/news/government-tight-lipped-potential-compensation-broadband-backers-446782

tsue921i8wljb3 · 23-07-2019 7:28pm

August 20th is now the date for the publishing of the Communication Committee report amid disagreement among members about what the findings should be.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/report-on-whether-to-support-governments-broadband-plans-will-not-be-published-until-august-20-938933.html

westyIrl · 23-07-2019 8:22pm

heavydawson wrote: »

Perhaps, but the subsidy that will be available to the bidder is part of the overall €545 million contingency set aside by the government.

From: https://www.businesspost.ie/news/government-tight-lipped-potential-compensation-broadband-backers-446782

Yes, it is good that such payments would be capped somewhere within that contingency. However, I don't see the Govt. making any savings as purported on this aspect as I highly doubt OE will just sit back and let NBI hoover up subcribers installing kilometers of fibre when all OE need to do is run fibre distances an order of magnitude less in most instances.

Jim

heavydawson · 23-07-2019 10:18pm

westyIrl wrote: »

Yes, it is good that such payments would be capped somewhere within that contingency. However, I don't see the Govt. making any savings as purported on this aspect as I highly doubt OE will just sit back and let NBI hoover up subcribers installing kilometers of fibre when all OE need to do is run fibre distances an order of magnitude less in most instances.

Jim

It does seem odd. But also remember that it's probably a lot more costly (relative to the cost-per-premise of the 240k) on a per-km basis for OpenEir to ask those contractors to head out and "finish those last 3 premises" at this stage. It's a messy job for them too. Speculation on my part, but the work orders for all those mini-deployments would be a nightmare I'd imagine. Especially if they weren't going to completely "bridge" existing fibre deployments and started only cherry-picking a subset of the types of houses highlighted above. I'm assuming its clusters of houses like that that make up a good portion of the 150k premises Carolan Lennon suggested they'd identified as commercially viable earlier in the year. Fingers crossed they just focus on the urban buildout and stop interfering with the intervention area.

tsue921i8wljb3 · 23-07-2019 10:45pm

Hypothetically speaking if you were eir and you wanted you cause issues for NBI you would leave areas like those highlighted over the past few posts as they are high cost for low reward for NBI. You would then focus on the higher density areas on the fringes of open eir fibre coverage and target those. Hypothetically!

KOR101 · 24-07-2019 8:30am

It will be obvious to Eir from activity on the ground how NBI is planning to progress its build out and nothing is going to happen quickly. Eir can react dynamically to this so the question is at what point does it no longer make commercial sense for Eir to encroach any further. It's a nightmare for NBI.

ArrBee · 24-07-2019 9:36am

plodder wrote: »

Whatever the reason for it, I'm just saying that, looking forward, even if NBI is not going to use Eir's dark fibre, only their poles and ducts, there has to be many cases like this, where it makes more sense to come to some agreement where they get served by Openeir rather than NBI.

To what benefit though?
I'm not saying there is no benefit to reusing EIRs fibre but looking to know what you see as the benefit....

The reasons given for not using it are around contractual obligations and the inability of EIR to provide SLAs that match what NBI and govt have.
There's no escaping that.
There are also other benefits to having a separate network away from EIR considering how they have behaved in this process.

Yes, it costs more (not sure if it adds much to the total cost?)
Yes, it takes longer
But I think it will be a better end result if EIR's fibre is NOT used. Plus it means the gamble they took doesn't pan out for them, and will probably result in them extending to the pockets anyway - IMO

clohamon · 24-07-2019 10:58am

Diary note for 24/07/2019

4.00 PM: WHY DO WE HAVE FREQUENT SERIOUS COST OVERRUNS ON INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECTS IN IRELAND AND WHAT ARE THE CONSEQUENCES?

The recent disclosures of jaw-dropping increases in the budgeted cost of the National Children’s Hospital and the roll-out of the National Broadband Plan raise many questions about the capacity of the State to spend public money with “propriety, regularity and integrity”, as it is officially expressed......
http://www.macgillsummerschool.com/2018-programme/

Panellists: Robert Watt, Colm McCarthy, Karlin Lillington
Moderator: Eddie Molloy

Webcast to be available here at 4:00pm
https://donegalcoco.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/435394

Bored Accountant · 24-07-2019 12:54pm

westyIrl wrote: »

I'd wager OpenEir may start to connect up these sporadic dwellings once they see NBI coming their way. They are now the low hanging fruit for OpenEir.

OpenEir won't started to connect any low hanging fruit, because that would remove the need for the NBI to roll out fibre, which would result in eir losing out on rental of km's of poles and ducts for the NBI fibre to the handful of homes.
OpenEir will make more from rental of the poles and ducts over 20 years than they would from connecting the couple of houses.

dam099 · 24-07-2019 2:08pm

Bored Accountant wrote: »

OpenEir won't started to connect any low hanging fruit, because that would remove the need for the NBI to roll out fibre, which would result in eir losing out on rental of km's of poles and ducts for the NBI fibre to the handful of homes.
OpenEir will make more from rental of the poles and ducts over 20 years than they would from connecting the couple of houses.

Their behaviour over the last couple of weeks would suggest otherwise.

plodder · 24-07-2019 2:10pm

ArrBee wrote: »

To what benefit though?
I'm not saying there is no benefit to reusing EIRs fibre but looking to know what you see as the benefit....

The reasons given for not using it are around contractual obligations and the inability of EIR to provide SLAs that match what NBI and govt have.
There's no escaping that.
There are also other benefits to having a separate network away from EIR considering how they have behaved in this process.

Yes, it costs more (not sure if it adds much to the total cost?)
Yes, it takes longer
But I think it will be a better end result if EIR's fibre is NOT used. Plus it means the gamble they took doesn't pan out for them, and will probably result in them extending to the pockets anyway - IMO

The main benefit would be a reduction in the subsidy paid out by the state. If that can't be achieved then there isn't much point from a public perspective. As far as I'm concerned though, all this is in play until the contract is signed.

NBP part II

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