DCM 2019 - Mentored Novices Thread

Unknownability · 13-07-2019 11:08am

Unknownability wrote: »

Run done 13.4 miles average pace 9.08m/m.

Didn't get off to the best start went out without water as I couldn't find a bottle, last 3 miles were somewhat of a struggle gel that I took gave me a kind of a heart burn reaction, a horrible headwind, a hill and dehydration all took its toll and they were endured rather than enjoyed.

Actually looking back on it, the GPS signal went a bit haywire for mile 11. Which makes sense as it definitely didn't feel like I'd broken. My stride to go from 9'03 to 9'34.

It's incredible how good I feel after the run yesterday, the difference following this plan and a bit of stretching has done. I've only ever ran 13.1m once before (mullingar half) and I was crippled for days.

I'm more than likely going to give the recovery 3m a miss today as I've a match this evening which will see me do 5/6 miles at various paces. I'll get a good warm up in though.

Good luck to everyone with their long runs today.

opus · 13-07-2019 5:27pm

Was walking down the South Mall in Cork earlier & my brain registered something about DCM, had to backtrack a bit & saw this in the KBC bank doorway.

eabha19 · 14-07-2019 12:50pm

Huzzah! wrote: »

Oh, nightmare on the flight delay. Glad the rest of the holiday went well.

Don't do the session on Saturday if you're long running on Sunday. Just get some easy miles in instead.

Your runs are too fast. PMP for a 4:30 marathon is 6:20/km, so your runs are only 10-15seconds slower. It might be time for some solo runs?

Your racing schedule seems fine. I'd be inclined to knock the five miler on the head, though.

Thanks for that - turns out I didn't get hills or easy run done last night as we totally overdid it at the wedding, singing in the resident's bar at 4:30 a.m. I was comatosed on the couch last night. Did get up for my long run, 13 miles, today but my watch died so my pace was guess work at 6:40/6:45 I think judging by my time out (2.5 hours with two wee breaks - blame my running mate!!). My ankle was causing me trouble - think it's time to see a physio, the long runs seem to trigger it every time. This week back on plan for definite and back to some semblance of healthy eating too. Will try and figure out re solo long runs but it's hard because a group of us signed up together and the plan was to run the long runs together - I feel bad letting my friends down plus the long run is never quite as long with a friend by your side.

skyblue46 · 14-07-2019 1:46pm

eabha19 wrote: »

Thanks for that - turns out I didn't get hills or easy run done last night as we totally overdid it at the wedding, singing in the resident's bar at 4:30 a.m. I was comatosed on the couch last night. Did get up for my long run, 13 miles, today but my watch died so my pace was guess work at 6:40/6:45 I think judging by my time out (2.5 hours with two wee breaks - blame my running mate!!). My ankle was causing me trouble - think it's time to see a physio, the long runs seem to trigger it every time. This week back on plan for definite and back to some semblance of healthy eating too. Will try and figure out re solo long runs but it's hard because a group of us signed up together and the plan was to run the long runs together - I feel bad letting my friends down plus the long run is never quite as long with a friend by your side.

Are your friends all expecting to run the marathon in a similar time to yourself? If they are faster then you really are not doing yourself any favours by training at their paces. If they have similar expectations to yourself then try to get them to train at sensible paces and this would allow you to do the long runs together. As Huzzah has indicated you really shouldn't be doing long runs at less than 7-7:15 mins per km. Test out your powers of persuasion

rizzee · 14-07-2019 3:14pm

This week:

Monday 5.25km 28:12
Tuesday 5.03km 30:15
Thursday 5.01km 27:37
Saturday 10.08km 58:39

Very inconsistent times. Need to get that extra run in/get a bike/go swimming! Also have to slow them right down, as comfortable as they are it's not sustainable.
But I'm happy that I'm getting out there and running with ease & no pains.

Going for 5 runs next week loosely on the HH plan and the following week it's holiday time so will be bringing the runners with me. (At least I can swim that week too

)

Meanman · 14-07-2019 4:49pm

Two questions guys

(1)If The HH plan says 3 ml run does that include a warm up. or should I warm up for 15 minutes and then 3 miles

(2)4x800 Is that 800 meters?

Thanks

Mr. Guappa · 14-07-2019 5:19pm

Meanman wrote: »

Two questions guys

(1)If The HH plan says 3 ml run does that include a warm up. or should I warm up for 15 minutes and then 3 miles

(2)4x800 Is that 800 meters?

Thanks

Is it the Hal Higdon Novice 1 plan you are following? All the runs in that are at an easy pace, so no requirement for a warm up, outside of some dynamic stretching.

Where are you getting the 4x800 from?

Can you take a look at the questions in the first post of this thread and give us an idea of where you stand?

Meanman · 14-07-2019 5:25pm

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Is it the Hal Higdon Novice 1 plan you are following? All the runs in that are at an easy pace, so no requirement for a warm up, outside of some dynamic stretching.

Where are you getting the 4x800 from?

Can you take a look at the questions in the first post of this thread and give us an idea of where you stand?

I am following the HH PLAN level 2. Hoping to do sub 4hr marathon

Huzzah! · 14-07-2019 5:58pm

Meanman wrote: »

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Is it the Hal Higdon Novice 1 plan you are following? All the runs in that are at an easy pace, so no requirement for a warm up, outside of some dynamic stretching.

Where are you getting the 4x800 from?

Can you take a look at the questions in the first post of this thread and give us an idea of where you stand?

I am following the HH PLAN level 2. Hoping to do sub 4hr marathon

Hi there, can you link to the plan? I can only find intervals in the Hal Higdon Advanced plans. What’s your training background? How many days a week do you train and what distances? What are your PBs to date?

Huzzah! · 14-07-2019 6:40pm

eabha19 wrote: »

Thanks for that - turns out I didn't get hills or easy run done last night as we totally overdid it at the wedding, singing in the resident's bar at 4:30 a.m. I was comatosed on the couch last night. Did get up for my long run, 13 miles, today but my watch died so my pace was guess work at 6:40/6:45 I think judging by my time out (2.5 hours with two wee breaks - blame my running mate!!). My ankle was causing me trouble - think it's time to see a physio, the long runs seem to trigger it every time. This week back on plan for definite and back to some semblance of healthy eating too. Will try and figure out re solo long runs but it's hard because a group of us signed up together and the plan was to run the long runs together - I feel bad letting my friends down plus the long run is never quite as long with a friend by your side.

I understand, I really do, but you're not letting them down by slowing them down if that's correct for them also. If, as skyblue alludes to, they're training for a faster marathon, then it's going to be difficult for you to train with them. My husband also runs and we often train for the same races using the same plans. Anytime we run together (rarely), it ends up being a compromise for both of us, which is just junk miles in the end up.

Can you remind me when you ran the 1:59 half time?

skyblue46 wrote: »

Are your friends all expecting to run the marathon in a similar time to yourself? If they are faster then you really are not doing yourself any favours by training at their paces. If they have similar expectations to yourself then try to get them to train at sensible paces and this would allow you to do the long runs together. As Huzzah has indicated you really shouldn't be doing long runs at less than 7-7:15 mins per km. Test out your powers of persuasion

eabha19 · 14-07-2019 6:59pm

Huzzah! wrote: »

I understand, I really do, but you're not letting them down by slowing them down if that's correct for them also. If, as skyblue alludes to, they're training for a faster marathon, then it's going to be difficult for you to train with them. My husband also runs and we often train for the same races using the same plans. Anytime we run together (rarely), it ends up being a compromise for both of us, which is just junk miles in the end up.

Can you remind me when you ran the 1:59 half time?

Huzzah and Skyblue thanks for that - my powers of persuasion aren't working at the moment. I've one main running mate and he would be same pace at races or slightly slower than me. But he thinks if he's able, then he should run it as long as he's comfortable - in fairness his heart rate on strava is much lower than mine, I reckon the long running really suits him and he's been lucky on the injury front whereas I've a long running achilles issue that I'm trying to be careful about.

The half marathon was in March at the Mullingar - it was 1:58:28 (just checked) but in fairness it's a flat (albeit miserable weather) course. I did the DCM half last year in 2 hrs 30 secs.

skyblue46 · 14-07-2019 7:13pm

eabha19 wrote: »

Huzzah and Skyblue thanks for that - my powers of persuasion aren't working at the moment. I've one main running mate and he would be same pace at races or slightly slower than me. But he thinks if he's able, then he should run it as long as he's comfortable - in fairness his heart rate on strava is much lower than mine, I reckon the long running really suits him and he's been lucky on the injury front whereas I've a long running achilles issue that I'm trying to be careful about.

The half marathon was in March at the Mullingar - it was 1:58:28 (just checked) but in fairness it's a flat (albeit miserable weather) course. I did the DCM half last year in 2 hrs 30 secs.

If his heart rate is lower than yours there is the possibility that he's one of the diesel types. If you want to get your heart rate down then you'll have to slow things down also. Running at a high HR all the time won't do much for your aerobic capacity.

Swashbuckler · 14-07-2019 7:59pm

eabha19 wrote:

Huzzah and Skyblue thanks for that - my powers of persuasion aren't working at the moment. I've one main running mate and he would be same pace at races or slightly slower than me. But he thinks if he's able, then he should run it as long as he's comfortable - in fairness his heart rate on strava is much lower than mine, I reckon the long running really suits him and he's been lucky on the injury front whereas I've a long running achilles issue that I'm trying to be careful about.

I understand completely where you are coming from and this isn't meant to come across too harshly but you're sacraficing your own marathon for your friends. And that's ok as long as you realise that's what youre doing. I don't think, come October, that you'll be thinking "I'm glad I was good company for my buddies" at mile 20 of the marathon. Trust the lads. They're giving you good advice. Slow down!

Laineyfrecks · 14-07-2019 9:09pm

Wk 3 completed by a 3M recovery run earlier this evening! Happy to say it was a good week of running & really enjoyed my 13mile run yesterday which is my longest run EVER

Feeling good going into Wk 4 & especially looking forward to racing the 10k on Sunday

Bananaleaf · 14-07-2019 9:18pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

If his heart rate is lower than yours there is the possibility that he's one of the diesel types.

Can I ask what this means? The above is something that I have noticed and would like to understand too - how runners who are either the same pace or slower than me can complete their training runs and races with a much slower heart rate than me.

It has been something that has been on my mind lately - is there something wrong with me that my HR is so high in comparison to everyone else's?

Thank you

skyblue46 · 14-07-2019 9:25pm

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Can I ask what this means? The above is something that I have noticed and would like to understand too - how runners who are either the same pace or slower than me can complete their training runs and races with a much slower heart rate than me.

It has been something that has been on my mind lately - is there something wrong with me that my HR is so high in comparison to everyone else's?

Thank you

Haha...no there is nothing wrong with you. Some people are genetically/physically predisposed to endurance or speed. For example my partner has a struggle doing 8 min miles for a 5 mile race, yesterday did 8 min miles for a 10 mile, will probably do 8 min miles in her upcoming half and will get damn close in DCM. She can keep going at the same pace forever but has no big increase in pace at shorter distances. That's what I mean by a diesel....

py · 14-07-2019 9:37pm

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Can I ask what this means? The above is something that I have noticed and would like to understand too - how runners who are either the same pace or slower than me can complete their training runs and races with a much slower heart rate than me.

It has been something that has been on my mind lately - is there something wrong with me that my HR is so high in comparison to everyone else's?

Thank you

There are so many variables to heart rate when exercising (and in every day life), it is probably best to ignore other peoples pace vs heart rate. Age, body mass/weight, caffeine consumption, fatigue levels, body/air temperature and the list goes on.

Huzzah! · 14-07-2019 9:52pm

py wrote: »

There are so many variables to heart rate when exercising (and in every day life), it is probably best to ignore other peoples pace vs heart rate. Age, body mass/weight, caffeine consumption, fatigue levels, body/air temperature and the list goes on.

Yep and you’ve no way of knowing what their max is or how accurate their monitor is, so I wouldn’t compare myself based on HR.

Mr. Guappa · 14-07-2019 10:15pm

Week 4!!

First off, thanks very much to Huzzah! and ReeReeG for doing a first class job during my absence - they really know their stuff! Some new faces joined our group during the week, so welcome along to Ais_Byrne7, Overthere33, cailineile, Sunday Runner, greentea is just wrong, Meanman, and anyone else I've missed! As always, our door is always open, so feel free to join in if you've been lurking in the shadows :cool:

One of the things that struck me as I looked on from a distance last week was that some of you were doing random races, racing parkruns or doing speed sessions. To put it bluntly, you are sabotaging your marathon. As someone mentioned previously, each easy run is adding credits to your endurance bank - by racing and doing inappropriate sessions you are cashing in those credits for no benefit towards the main goal - THE MARATHON. There are only three races on the plans for a reason - you need to keep the marathon as your priority. You can race those three races (or suitable alternatives), but outside of that, please, stick to the plan. The long run distances, and weekly mileages are creeping up into unchartered territory for most of you now, adding "extras" on top of that is not a smart move - Keep the main thing the main thing.

We have now completed 3 weeks of the plans, and are 1/6 of the way through. Most of you have really embraced the easy running - a very well done to you. A majority could probably dial it back a touch further, and a handful really need to wind the paces in - you are not doing yourself any favours, or making any gains (the opposite in fact!) by running too fast. We'll be keeping a particularly close eye on strava over the coming week

. For those not racing, here is your plan for the week ahead:

Plan|Monday|Tuesday|Wednesday|Thursday|Friday|Saturday|Sunday
HHN1|rest|3m easy|4m easy|4m easy|rest|9m LSR|Cross
Boards|rest,cross or 3m rec|3m easy|1m w/u, 4m PMP, 1m c/d|3m recovery|rest|13m LSR|3m rec

As you can see the long run kicks up a notch for the Hal Higdon crew this week. Keep the paces sensible and you'll do fine. As always, if you miss a run let it go and don't go chasing the lost miles.

For the boards crew it's a return to planned marathon pace miles for the midweek session. PMP is not set in stone at this stage, so keep it realistic to where you are now, not some potential goal pace.

FINALLY, hydration is important at all times, but particularly so given the warm weather we are currently expereincing, and ahead of a race for many of you at the weekend. Keep well hydrated during the day, with plenty of water, and the occasional electrolyte tab. For your longer runs, find a system that allows you to keep hydrated throughout the run - plenty options have been mentioned previosuly, but any further queries just ask.

Well done to all for the progress made so far, and good luck for the week ahead!

kemcloughlin · 14-07-2019 10:40pm

Welcome back Mr Guappa

Did I get the runs in? Yes plus an extra Parkrun....I know...I know....

Right pace? Yes - apart from the Parkrun PB

Overall how I am going? OK I think. I changed to the HH plan and I am enjoying it - did my LSR today and average 11.30/mile and got negative splits - really happy!

Looking forward to the week ahead - no races as I did the Roscommon 10 mile last week.

Bananaleaf · 14-07-2019 10:50pm

Welcome back Mr Guappa

Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not?
Yes, I got them all in.

Did you run the runs at an appropriate pace?
Yes, all done at an appropriate pace. Easy runs at about 13:30mins/mile, LSR at 14:10mins/mile and recovery slower again at 15:25mins/mile

After three weeks, how do you feel your training is progressing?
I am happy with myself as I am rising to the challenges. However, the legs are tired this week. I know next Sunday is ages away but I am wondering how in hell I will be able to race the 10km. I'm also wondering if I should be concerned about my pace for LSRs. Saturday's 13miles took me 3hrs 6mins. Maybe that is why the legs are so tired. That and the heat, which is disturbing my sleep. I enjoy my long runs and I think the pace is right for me, but should I try to start speeding it up even a little bit? If the mentors don't think it's a problem for now, I'm happy to stay as I am. Looking at the plan an estimating, the 15mile would likely take me 3.5hrs and the 16m about 3hrs 45. Is that okay?

Thank you and sorry for the length of my post

Mr. Guappa · 14-07-2019 11:05pm

kemcloughlin wrote: »

Welcome back Mr Guappa

Did I get the runs in? Yes plus an extra Parkrun....I know...I know....

Right pace? Yes - apart from the Parkrun PB

Overall how I am going? OK I think. I changed to the HH plan and I am enjoying it - did my LSR today and average 11.30/mile and got negative splits - really happy!

Looking forward to the week ahead - no races as I did the Roscommon 10 mile last week.

Congratulations on the PB. I know it's a great buzz racing regularly and knocking out PB's, but it's something that really does need to be shelved until after DCM. You'll blow your current 5k and 10k times out of the water when you're on the far side of this marathon. It does require sacrifices in the short term, but all those sacrifices will be worth it come October.

Also, you should slow the paces down another notch, I'd add at least 60-90 seconds per mile onto your pace today.

Mr. Guappa · 14-07-2019 11:24pm

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Welcome back Mr Guappa

Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not?
Yes, I got them all in.

Did you run the runs at an appropriate pace?
Yes, all done at an appropriate pace. Easy runs at about 13:30mins/mile, LSR at 14:10mins/mile and recovery slower again at 15:25mins/mile

After three weeks, how do you feel your training is progressing?
I am happy with myself as I am rising to the challenges. However, the legs are tired this week. I know next Sunday is ages away but I am wondering how in hell I will be able to race the 10km. I'm also wondering if I should be concerned about my pace for LSRs. Saturday's 13miles took me 3hrs 6mins. Maybe that is why the legs are so tired. That and the heat, which is disturbing my sleep. I enjoy my long runs and I think the pace is right for me, but should I try to start speeding it up even a little bit? If the mentors don't think it's a problem for now, I'm happy to stay as I am. Looking at the plan an estimating, the 15mile would likely take me 3.5hrs and the 16m about 3hrs 45. Is that okay?

Thank you and sorry for the length of my post

Nice week, and best of luck with the 10k. You are spending a lot of time on your feet, which could have something to do with the tired legs. I would definitely be concerned that you're running the long runs too slow. If we put your PMP for now at 11:00/mile (based on a 4:45 target time), then you can have LSR pace in the range of 12:00-12:30.

Running any longer than three hours, especially at this stage of the plans is too much. I'd definitely be looking to reduce that.

Unknownability · 14-07-2019 11:25pm

Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not?

Yes, I got all runs in. Slightly unusual order which is the norm for me.

Did you run the runs at an appropriate pace?

Yep, barring one GPS abnormality lsr was done on line with expectations.

After three weeks, how do you feel your training is progressing?

Very happy with how body feels after long runs, slightly apprehension around not runnu g enough miles at PMP.

eabha19 · 14-07-2019 11:35pm

Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not?
No - last week of holiday between late nights, super hot weather (even at 6 a.m.), delayed flights and a raucous wedding I only managed one easy run and today's 13 mile long run during which my garmin died.

Did you run the runs at an appropriate pace?
The easy run was at 6:50 m/km which is probably right but that was probably more down to the heat and the fact that I was slightly hungover than any great effort on my part! Today was somewhere between 6:40 - 6:45 m/km which is an improvement but I know I need to get that down slower.

After three weeks, how do you feel your training is progressing?
I knew the last two weeks would be a bit of a blip and had gotten a good lot of long runs in before the plan started so as to bank it in advance (pretty sure it doesn't work that way but it made me feel better anyway!) From now on no holidays or weddings, I'm determined to get stuck in and particularly to work on reducing the paces. This week I should have a solo long run as my mates are doing the 10k so it will be good practice for me. Got Michelle Obama's book on audio so I'll run with the former first lady as company this week!

DBB · 14-07-2019 11:40pm

Welcome back Mr. Guappa, hope you had a nice break

Did you get in all your planned runs? If not, why not?
Yes, all done on the HHN1 plan, plus a mile extra on the lsr as... Well... I'd got so used to longer runs on a Saturday on the HM plan that 5 miles just felt... Wrong

I felt strong so just kept going a teeny bit further.

Did you run at appropriate paces?
Yes, all good and steady as I'm training to heart rate.
Tues 3.1 miles @11:13min/mile, avg HR 135
Wed 4.4 miles @11:43min/MILE, avg HR 137
Thurs 3.1 miles @11:13min/mile avg HR 138
Sat 6.2 miles @ 11:36min/mile, avg HR 137

How do you feel your training is progressing?
I'm almost afraid to speak too soon, but having started HR training at the start of March, and being told at the time that it's going to take time for things to happen and to be patient, I feel things are starting to happen

As reported last week, I ran the Clontarf HM last Saturday, and although I wasn't fast (11:33min/mile... Stick with the plan, stick with the plan

), I was quite consistent in pacing for the whole thing, and felt strong to the end, which I was really pleased with.
This 3rd week of marathon training brought more hints that things are getting better. My lsr yesterday was the first time I've run every mile in under 12mins since starting HR training, including a later mile that's a long, uphill slog that I've never done in less than about 12:20.
But it's the way I'm feeling whilst I run that has me happiest... Stronger, good form, comfortable... and... enjoying it! It almost seems that I crossed a mental barrier by getting the half marathon under my belt, it seems to have brought me on a bit, if that makes sense.

I'm not doing the 10k next Sunday, but I am doing a 10mile race locally, which ties in pretty well with the alternative 9mile lsr scheduled on HHN1. I will run that race as an lsr. Stick with the plan, stick with the plan

Mr. Guappa · 14-07-2019 11:57pm

Unknownability wrote: »

Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not?

Yes, I got all runs in. Slightly unusual order which is the norm for me.

Did you run the runs at an appropriate pace?

Yep, barring one GPS abnormality lsr was done on line with expectations.

After three weeks, how do you feel your training is progressing?

Very happy with how body feels after long runs, slightly apprehension around not runnu g enough miles at PMP.

You've done a decent job of getting to grips with the easy paces so far, but there is further scope for improvement too. The midweek easy runs in particular can be a touch slower, closer to 9:00/mile.

Lots of people do worry about not running enough miles at marathon pace - it's understandable, but unnecessary. Easy miles are the key to building your aerobic engine to get you around the 26.2 miles. Trust the plan.

Sorbet · 15-07-2019 12:39am

Delighted to have kept to the plan this week as I was away and worried that I might let it slip. Did all the miles and if anything may have been a little slow :rolleyes:!

Legs goodish, knees felt it a bit after the 13 miler but new runners on the way as I've done over 400 miles on these ones - listen to me I sound like a runner at last:)

Good luck everyone this week - enjoying following all the runs on Strava!

Bananaleaf · 15-07-2019 12:44am

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Nice week, and best of luck with the 10k. You are spending a lot of time on your feet, which could have something to do with the tired legs. I would definitely be concerned that you're running the long runs too slow. If we put your PMP for now at 11:00/mile (based on a 4:45 target time), then you can have LSR pace in the range of 12:00-12:30.

Running any longer than three hours, especially at this stage of the plans is too much. I'd definitely be looking to reduce that.

Thanks Mr Guappa. I will speed up the runs a bit. I think I'll gp with 12mins for the easy runs and 12:30 or as close to that as I can manage for the LSRs

Thank you

Laineyfrecks · 15-07-2019 1:07am

Hope you had a great holiday Mr Guppa

Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not?
Yes got all my runs in as planned...lashed out of the heavens Wednesday evening for my hill sprints but totally loved it!!

- Did you run the runs at an appropriate pace?
Yes i think i am averaging the paces out well, still find my 1st mile maybe a little too quick but keeping an eye on it... trying to stay between 9.30 - 10.20 min per mile for easy & lsr's

- After three weeks, how do you feel your training is progressing?

I feel really good, never ever in a million years thought of myself as a long distance runner but with the training & consistency i'm loving the long runs. Not gonna lie i am so excited to run the 10k race on Sunday to feel that buzz of pushing myself but 100% my focus & determination is for the Marathon itself!

DCM 2019 - Mentored Novices Thread

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