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2019 Diamond League

2

Comments

  • #52
    skyblue46
    Registered Users Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    El Guerrouj went through 800 in 1:50.73 on his way to 3:26. That seems pretty optimal to me.


  • #53
    Sacksian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Sacksian


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    El Guerrouj went through 800 in 1:50.73 on his way to 3:26. That seems pretty optimal to me.

    Well, the best argument for the merits of any strategy are the results it produces and his is the fastest time in history so I'd agree with you there!


  • #54
    Fusitive
    Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭Fusitive


    Sacksian wrote: »
    I'd agree that he's the best chance and probably the only one capable of threatening at the moment. but it's worth remembering how rare anything under 3:28 is. Only 5 athletes have managed it.

    Or even times under 3:30. Only 32 athletes have ever managed to dip 3:30, fewer than the 35 that have run under 9.9 for 100m (remember when 10s was the magical barrier for the 100m?) and fewer than the 49 that have ran under 2:05 for the marathon!

    Under 3:28 would still be stunning.

    I think they're the pacer splits at 400m and 800m posted above so Cheruiyot's paces were slightly less insane, but probably still too fast from 400m - 1000m. But what impressed me and would give me hope that he might go faster is that he actually held it together quite well.

    Only one person in the race ran the 700m-1500m section faster than him (Jakob) and only two closed faster than him (Jakob & Filip Ingebrigtsen)

    A significant difference between him and El Guerrouj's pacing was that El Guerrouj finished so quickly, apparently running 40s for the last 300m! Cheruiyot ran closer to 42.

    True and it's a big ask but I think he's got a big chance(Monaco is a ludicrously fast track for mid distance( Lusanne is a pure sprinters track, look at Lyles and SAFP and all the fast sprint World Records set there and fast times, only one person has ever broke 3:30 there before)

    It's also worth noting that El G's WR splits are Noah Ngeny's and Robert Kibet's splits from pacing too just like Cheryuiout's so we are back to square one on the insanity of the splits vs El G. If you watch the race, El G had Robert Kibet and Ngeny lead him through and he sat a little bit off and went through ~55 flat and 1:51mid behind the pacers. The official splits quoted are Kibet's 400m and 800m and Negeny up to 1100 before El G took over. You are talking a second ahead at 400 and nearly a second and a half ahead through 800m on the head to head splits. Cheryuiout's first 300 was a sub-40 second split(which would be a good opening for most 800 guys(even paced 1:46 flat). These splits aren't just a comparison to any great performer or performance, they are a comparison to the greatest 1500 runner ever and his greatest 1500 ever. Going out that much faster than world record splits and hanging in that well despite him looking thrashed coming down the last 200 only leads to one conclusion for me, Cheryuiout can run much faster and:

    Not many people have broken even 3:28 for 1500 as you say never mind 3:27 or come close to El G's mark but I don't see these things as a barrier for him. I would be shocked bar a blow up if he doesn't run under 3:28 in Monaco and mildly surprised if he doesn't run under 3:27. He's in a different league to everyone else. Everything is lined up for a fast time there, the track is one of the fastest in the World, the pacing should be World class with Som leading it out, Cheryuiout will have a chance at a huge payday as he will get paid by the MD to go with the pacers and he is in incredible form right now.


  • #55
    IvoryTower
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,825 ✭✭✭IvoryTower


    whats the difference between a sprinters track and md track? What is Santry? Notice it's harder than other tracks


  • #56
    Fusitive
    Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭Fusitive


    IvoryTower wrote: »
    whats the difference between a sprinters track and md track? What is Santry? Notice it's harder than other tracks

    Generally, a fast sprint track is harder while more distance biased tracks are softer. Monaco is an even stranger case because it's a suspended track, there's two floors underneath it. Nick Willis reckons it might not even be the surface there but the fact it's suspended.that makes it the fastest track in the World.


  • #57
    yerwanthere123
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭yerwanthere123


    yerwanthere123 wrote: »
    Entry lists for Monaco are out. Dibaba Vs Hassan in the women's mile is the race of the night for me, I wonder if they'll get closer to the world record. Irish representation in Ciara Mageean as well, whilst the very not-Irish Beatrice Chepkoech will be trying her hand at what (I think) is her first ever flat mile.

    Well Dibaba and Chepkoech didn't show up, but Sifan Hassan certainly did. New world record! :eek:


  • #58
    Fusitive
    Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭Fusitive


    Absolutely huge performance for Ciara with a 4:19.03. It'll probably get lost in the placing as 1500/mile is swimming in depth right now. 3.5 second PB and equivalent to 3:59.7 for 1500. She probably went through 1500 tonight at close to or faster than 1500 PB too. Really good sign for her to say the least.


  • #59
    RacoonQueen
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,366 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    Fusitive wrote: »
    Absolutely huge performance for Ciara with a 4:19.03. It'll probably get lost in the placing as 1500/mile is swimming in depth right now. 3.5 second PB and equivalent to 3:59.7 for 1500. She probably went through 1500 tonight at close to or faster than 1500 PB too. Really good sign for her to say the least.

    On her instagram post she said mile and 1500m PB
    https://www.instagram.com/p/Bz3qVPBCLNK/


  • #60
    yerwanthere123
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭yerwanthere123


    Entry lists for this weekend's action.

    Women's 1500 & 5000 metres are where it's at for me, looking forward to the Kipeyegon-Muir duel. Also eager to see what Klosterhalfen can do after running 8:20 for 3000 in Prefontaine.

    Let's Run are talking up the possibility of a Hassan WR attempt in the 5000, but I'd be surprised if she'd be able to do it so soon after setting the mile WR. I do think her PB will fall into the sub 14:20 range though, should be great to see what kind of form Hellen Obiri will be in and if she'll go with Hassan if it is a fast race. Gidey is here too but she may be tired after running 30:37 at the Ethiopian 10k trials. I expect Salpeter and Laura Weightman to PB also.


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  • #61
    yerwanthere123
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭yerwanthere123


    Really delighted to see Lynsey Sharp get a moment like today, especially after all the abuse she's taken for speaking out about the Caster Semenya issue. Easy to forget she'd be an Olympic medallist if the rules that are currently being enforced had been in place back in 2016.

    Bit disappointed Hassan didn't do better today, but she has done a lot of racing recently. I still think she can get the world record, would just need to be better rested. Also she hasn't a hope of beating Obiri in Doha if she let's it come down to the last couple of laps, will need to push the pace more in the middle.


  • #62
    OOnegative
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭OOnegative


    yerwanthere123 wrote: »
    Really delighted to see Lynsey Sharp.

    = Geebag!!!


  • #63
    yerwanthere123
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭yerwanthere123


    OOnegative wrote: »
    = Geebag!!!

    ??

    Anyway, kinda scary to see how good Jakob is at such a young age. I wonder how good he'll be in 3 or 4 years time.


  • #64
    Chivito550
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    Fusitive wrote: »
    Absolutely huge performance for Ciara with a 4:19.03. It'll probably get lost in the placing as 1500/mile is swimming in depth right now. 3.5 second PB and equivalent to 3:59.7 for 1500. She probably went through 1500 tonight at close to or faster than 1500 PB too. Really good sign for her to say the least.

    IAAF points tables have Ciara’s mile equivalent to 4:00.7. That’s the best one to go off. She’s not a sub 4 1500 runner tbh. Not yet. She’ll get there.


  • #65
    Fusitive
    Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭Fusitive


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    IAAF points tables have Ciara’s mile equivalent to 4:00.7. That’s the best one to go off. She’s not a sub 4 1500 runner tbh. Not yet. She’ll get there.

    The mile is so rarely run that the IAAF tables aren't great for conversions on the 1500/mile. I used the NCAA conversion tables. She went through 1500 in 4:01.21, 0.5 is a little slim when it comes to degradation from 1500 to mile.


  • #66
    Fusitive
    Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭Fusitive


    Fusitive wrote: »
    The mile is so rarely run that the IAAF tables aren't great for conversions on the 1500/mile. I used the NCAA conversion tables. She went through 1500 in 4:01.21, 0.5 is a little slim when it comes to degradation from 1500 to mile.

    To show you the problem with the tables when it comes to this.

    Yomif Kejelcha Indoor Mile WR(3:47.01)= 1304pts
    Hicham El Gueruouj 1500m WR(3:26.00)= 1302 pts
    Hicham El Gueruouj Mile WR(3:43.13)= 1292pts

    Is Yomif Kejelcha's Indoor Mile WR the strongest 1500/mile performance of alk-time?


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  • #67
    Chivito550
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    Fusitive wrote: »
    The mile is so rarely run that the IAAF tables aren't great for conversions on the 1500/mile. I used the NCAA conversion tables. She went through 1500 in 4:01.21, 0.5 is a little slim when it comes to degradation from 1500 to mile.

    Maybe you're right, but it is just an extra 109 metres.

    The 0.5 seconds doesn't tell the full story though. How fast did Ciara run the last 109 metres? Was she hanging on after almost being flat out at the 1500 mark, or did she finish like a train (I've no idea as the camera was on Hassan).


  • #68
    Chivito550
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    Fusitive wrote: »
    To show you the problem with the tables when it comes to this.

    Yomif Kejelcha Indoor Mile WR(3:47.01)= 1304pts
    Hicham El Gueruouj 1500m WR(3:26.00)= 1302 pts
    Hicham El Gueruouj Mile WR(3:43.13)= 1292pts

    Is Yomif Kejelcha's Indoor Mile WR the strongest 1500/mile performance of alk-time?

    I don't think the indoor points are supposed to be compared to the outdoor points. They are separate tables. The same way men's times can't be compared to women's. Again separate tables.


  • #69
    Fusitive
    Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭Fusitive


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    Maybe you're right, but it is just an extra 109 metres.

    The 0.5 seconds doesn't tell the full story though. How fast did Ciara run the last 109 metres? Was she hanging on after almost being flat out at the 1500 mark, or did she finish like a train (I've no idea as the camera was on Hassan).

    She pretty much dead even split it which is how I could predict her being close to or slightly faster than her PB in that post. You're overthinking it here I think. 109m makes a difference because it takes away your ability to sprint earlier and there is a fatigue factor, it's why people thought it was really bold of Kejelcha to target both records in one race earlier this year.

    The problem with the IAAF scoring tables isn't the tables themselves, it's the way people use them that's a problem. They are a competitive equivalence, not a cross referenced time equivalent. Smaller sample sizes from events that have less exposure or people running will create less accurate predictions. They shouldn't be used to predict times, they can be used to say a 12.7 100 guy is as competitive against his peers in his event as a 17:20 5k guy is in his event or whatever(just an example), not that the times are the same.

    The NCAA conversion tables for 1500/mile are the opposite, they are not created to illustrate competitiveness, they are created for time equivalance. It seems like a very small difference but it's very important when it comes to getting a time equivalence vs a competitive equivalence. Depth matters more in the IAAF tables, time is matters more in NCAA conversions


  • #70
    Fusitive
    Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭Fusitive


    This is probably a better way to put it. Why do the IAAF tables get updated and change regularly? Surely a 4:19.03 mile should be equivalent to a 4:00.7 1500 all the time if time was the equivalent factor?

    Why does the NCAA mile to 1500 conversion never change and has been the same since the 60's?


  • #71
    yerwanthere123
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭yerwanthere123


    Dalilah Muhammad broke the 400m hurdles world record at the US national champs last night with a time of 52.20.


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  • #72
    yerwanthere123
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭yerwanthere123


    No Caster Semenya at this year's World Championships after her appeal failed. I imagine this means there won't be any Niyonsaba or Wambui either, so Ajee Wilson should be the big favourite heading into Doha.


  • #73
    yerwanthere123
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭yerwanthere123


    Big story of the weekend was Konstanze Klosterhalfen solo running her way to 14:26 at the 5k of the German National Championships. She lapped everyone except the 2nd placed Alina Reh, who finished in the *slightly* slower time of 15:19. Doha shall be very interesting indeed, I'm already excited!


  • #74
    yerwanthere123
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭yerwanthere123


    Birmingham entry lists out, including our own Sarah Healy who'll be running against the likes of Klosterhalfen, Debues-Stafford and McColgan in the Women's Mile.


  • #75
    yerwanthere123
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭yerwanthere123


    No thoughts on Paris?

    Conseslus Kipruto returned to the steeplechase but could only manage 6th with a time of 8:13. Thomas Barr finished last in the 400m hurdles.


  • #76
    chasingpaper
    Registered Users Posts: 75 ✭✭chasingpaper


    yerwanthere123 wrote: »
    No thoughts on Paris?

    Conseslus Kipruto returned to the steeplechase but could only manage 6th with a time of 8:13. Thomas Barr finished last in the 400m hurdles.

    People seem more interested in speculating about doping than watching the sport!

    Good race in men's 1500.
    Warholm brilliant, 400mh at worlds should be great.
    Thought Lyles was fantastic again too.


  • #77
    Chivito550
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    yerwanthere123 wrote: »
    No thoughts on Paris?

    Conseslus Kipruto returned to the steeplechase but could only manage 6th with a time of 8:13. Thomas Barr finished last in the 400m hurdles.

    49.32 from Barr though. Good time and getting back into decent form after the injury. Hopefully he can dip under 49 in DL final. He tops the standings so you would hope that will secure him a good lane (not sure if it works like that in DL). A sub 49 would be an excellent platform to take into Doha. Barr's 3 best times (and 6 of his best 8) have come at championships. He has the pedigree to bring it out in Doha, provided he stays healthy. No chance of a medal but he can make a final. So can 15 others though.


  • #78
    yerwanthere123
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭yerwanthere123


    Start lists/schedule for tonight, looking forward to it! Hoping for a sub 9 for Emma Coburn in the steeplechase.


  • #79
    chasingpaper
    Registered Users Posts: 75 ✭✭chasingpaper


    Warholm:eek:
    What a race.

    Miller-Uibo is such a lovely athlete to watch, real pity she can't double at worlds.

    Great meet tonight really enjoyed that.


  • #80
    Itziger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,017 ✭✭✭Itziger


    That 400m hurdles was bloody spectacular. Must watch again later.

    As for Miller Uibo...... wow.

    The 5,000 metres was an interesting race and that 800 mens!! Jaysus, how far back was the winner with 250 to go?


  • #81
    Sacksian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Sacksian


    I thought the 5,000m was briliant - with 800m to go, I didn't think Cheptegei would be caught and then with 200m to go, I wasn't sure he was going to make it. Both Kejelcha and the commentators seemed to think it was going to be a Kejelcha - Barega head-to-head but, for all of Kejelcha's talent, it's not the first time I've seen him run himself out of a race. You always want the guy who goes with the pace to hold on!

    And Dibaba 4th in the women's 1500m, it'll be interesting to see what Klosterhalfen's best event is going to be, she doesn't have a kick but she's still right in the mix at 1500m. But delighted to see Hassan running the way she is at the minute - she's really worked on her endurance the last couple of years and it's paying off. And, as a bonus, she seems to be really popular with all of the other athletes.


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  • #82
    yerwanthere123
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭yerwanthere123


    Forgot to post after Friday night.

    6th and 9:10 for Coburn in the steeplechase obviousl isn't a good result for her, but fair play for her for having a try of it. Seems she messed up her pacing, she posted on Instagram that she followed the pacer because the pace was "supposed to be 2:56" for the opening kilometre, but it had always been set at 2:53. Seems like an odd mistake to make. I still think she can do sub 9, but not by going out as lightning fast as she did on Friday. Silver/bronze will probably be what she should aim for in Doha I think. Brilliant race by Krause though, 9:07 PB!

    Another great night for Hassan, she'll surely run the 1,500 in Doha now? But if she does then she won't be able to do the 5,000, yet she's also been training for the 10,000 all season. Decisions, decisions, can't wait to see what she picks.


  • #83
    yerwanthere123
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭yerwanthere123


    Entry lists for tonight, last big one before world's start in three weeks! Most looking forward to the Women's 5,000 metres, eager to see if Hassan can finally get the 5k win over Obiri. I'll also be interested to see if Klosterhalfen will still be in the mix at the business end of the race.

    Men's 1,500 should be good too.


  • #84
    4Ad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,740 ✭✭✭4Ad


    2 great races already...


  • #85
    nannerby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 362 ✭✭nannerby


    That was a really good meeting,Doha will be fun there are going to be some amazing races.


  • #86
    yerwanthere123
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭yerwanthere123


    Intriguing women's 5k last night, it should put Hassan as the favourite for Doha, if she even chooses to run it. I think Obiri would need to take it out a little faster to take the sting out of the Hassan kick. Of course she's also got Gidey, Klosterhalfen and Tirop to worry about too, the event feels a lot more open then it did just a few weeks ago. From the NOP Instagram page it seems Hassan is currently deciding between the 10k/5k double or the unconventional 10k/1500m for worlds.

    Another runner up finish for Jakob. Think I've said this before, and maybe I'm just not understanding the tactics properly, but if Jakob stuck a little bit closer to the leaders and not gave himself so much ground to make up wouldn't he stand a better chance? He always seems to want to catch them on the home straight but I think he's good enough to stay with the leaders throughout. Idk, maybe I'm wrong.

    El Bakaali didn't have Kipruto to worry about last night but he still managed to lose. Either way I think he's still the favourite for Doha.


  • #87
    OOnegative
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭OOnegative


    Hassan had never beaten Obiri in her life until last night and then completely obliterates her. Great training going on in NOP clearly!!!


  • #88
    yerwanthere123
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭yerwanthere123


    Well she'd never beaten her over 5k, she's beaten her many times previously at shorter distances.


  • #89
    OOnegative
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭OOnegative


    yerwanthere123 wrote: »
    Well she'd never beaten her over 5k, she's beaten her many times previously at shorter distances.

    As I said it’s her great training with NOP!!


  • #90
    yerwanthere123
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭yerwanthere123


    OOnegative wrote: »
    As I said it’s her great training with NOP!!

    What are you insinuating :pac:


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  • #91
    OOnegative
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭OOnegative


    yerwanthere123 wrote: »
    What are you insinuating :pac:

    Your clearly a smart person, you know. I’ve zero time for Salazar, he’ll be found out soon enough like Armstrong. I know a certain poster here if there reading will rip me to bits for my opinion but hey, we’ll see who’s correct in years to come. Cheers for the input on the DL over the season btw, kept us all informed.


  • #92
    nannerby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 362 ✭✭nannerby


    In fairness I doubt anyone in their right mind would defend Salazar or NOP


  • #93
    yerwanthere123
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭yerwanthere123


    nannerby wrote: »
    In fairness I doubt anyone in their right mind would defend Salazar or NOP

    Just to be clear, I wasn't. But I'm so sceptical about pretty much everything in every sport that I've almost come full circle now, and I just accept what I see at face value for now until I have a specific reason to believe otherwise. I mean, obviously we can't ignore what we see with the likes of Ayana, Genzebe Dibaba and Chepkoech, but for now I just enjoy what I'm watching and... hope for the best? :pac:

    I do wish the authorities would go after the Ethiopians now though. They've done a good job with the Kenyans but there's a lot more to be done I'm sure.


  • #94
    Sacksian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Sacksian


    yerwanthere123 wrote: »
    If Jakob stuck a little bit closer to the leaders and not gave himself so much ground to make up wouldn't he stand a better chance? He always seems to want to catch them on the home straight but I think he's good enough to stay with the leaders throughout. Idk, maybe I'm wrong.

    It's a very fine line and while I don't think anyone recommends negative-splitting a 1500m race, Jakob has shown himself to be an incredibly astute racer. Given that he's more of a 5,000m/1,500m runner, he's probably running the best race he can. When you're watching the ebb-and-flow of the race, it's hard to see just how good his pacing is.

    If he had gone out with Cheruiyot, I think he would have ended up with Tefera (who finished 4 seconds behind him) and Souleiman (who finished 3.5 seconds behind). Tefera was still in 2nd place at 1,100m and Souleiman 3rd. At 800, Tefera was 0.8s and Souleiman was 1s ahead of Jakob and Cheruiyot was 1.2s ahead. So, Cheruiyot actually extended his lead over Jakob in the 2nd half while the others went backwards fast. The only split where Jakob was obviously closing was from 1300m - 1400m but Cheruiyot's final 100m was actually faster (13.5 to Jakob's 13.7). It's just that everyone else dying created a bit of an optical illusion.

    Souleiman has a 1:42 800m to his name (and a sub 3:30 1500m) and Tefera is the WR holder at 1500m indoor so it's understandable they tried mixing it with Cheruiyot.

    However, ALL that being said, I think Jakob will break 3:30 in the next couple of years and at some point, he's going to have see what happens when he goes out faster than 1:53 for 800m (which he did in Lausanne as well).


  • #95
    Sacksian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭Sacksian


    OOnegative wrote: »
    Hassan had never beaten Obiri in her life until last night and then completely obliterates her. Great training going on in NOP clearly!!!

    I have no time for Salazar at all. For me, the story (which he confirmed) that he tested a testosterone gel on his sons to determine how much would trigger a positive test tells me that he is someone who doesn't care about the spirit of competition. So, as with Sky in cycling, once you're prepared to go into those murky areas and make rule lawyering a focus, I'm not that interested whether it's legal or not.

    HOWEVER, whether she signed up to the NOP or not, Hassan is a special athlete, and always has been.

    She has been one of the best 1500m runners in the world for a few years and, if anything, she's only now making the type of progress you might have expected when she was breaking through (bronze in the WC 1500m behind Dibaba and Kipyegon in 2015, WC gold indoor in 2016). I understand her training was not particularly structured in the early part of her career and she took up running relatively late. If anyone remembers her early races, she used to get herself into a lot of trouble by hanging out around the back and leaves herself with too much to do (she almost missed the break in Brussels too). So, given these caveats, her accomplishments pre-NOP were pretty astounding.

    Given her 800m speed, I would have thought that any structured attempt to plug the holes in her endurance was always going to pay off at the longer distances. Her progress and performances look credible to me right now.

    Having said ALL that, she could - of course - be doped up to the gills. But so could the person finishing 8th in Heat One.


  • #96
    Fusitivity
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1 ✭Fusitivity


    OOnegative wrote: »
    Your clearly a smart person, you know. I’ve zero time for Salazar, he’ll be found out soon enough like Armstrong. I know a certain poster here if there reading will rip me to bits for my opinion but hey, we’ll see who’s correct in years to come. Cheers for the input on the DL over the season btw, kept us all informed.

    I had actually left but your passive aggressive remark caught my attention, but I promise This will be my last post on here you will be happy to know. I just want to clear the air and give you a more descriptive explanation for my tone. Firstly, I wasn't trying to rip you apart in that post, I have an extreme passion for this sport and as I write posts like that: my annoyance gets the better of me; It's not directed at you; it's my annoyance at the problems within the sport that comes out. you also severly misunderstood my post

    Secondly, I merely pointed a factual flaw in the mile time argument used against Hassan in that Mile race.

    First off on NOP, I said I had more faith in NOP than most groups because of all the first hand evidence out there, This does not mean I know they are squeaky clean(there are shades of grey in the World). It means that when I look around and see the Dibaba's who were in the hotel in Saddabel when Spanish police raided their rooms and found pharmacueticul quantities of EPO and Syringes and when Kenya only has OOC testing since 2017 and the likes of Ethiophia has none, that Star sprinters in Jamacia were going up to 6 months without being tested, when whole countries have systematic doping programs in place, I have more far more faith in NOP than most groups. I would bet my life on NOP not using EPO because of what I read first hand. i.e They were using food supplement L-carnitine to boost blood. At the very least, NOP were ethically corrupt and maybe anti-doping too but the are definitely operating in the grey zone. Have you read the USADA investigation into NOP? because if you haven't and I mean no offense by this, you have no insider first hand info to base your opinions on other than belief and a performance. that is not evidence, when a cop has a case; they don't refuse to read the crime reports and hear witness or informant testimony and put everything on a hunch of bulletpoints from any old source.

    Take this quote from Vern Gambetta(Former S&C coach of NOP)
    In track and field, cycling and swimming, I feel there is no gray area in terms of what's fair and ethical. It's black or white; you're a druggie or you're not. It's as simple as that. Some people are in a dark gray area. Say 50 is the threshold for illegality: They're going to do everything in their means to be at 49.999. They're always trying to find something new to give their athletes an edge. They called it innovation; I called it cheating. Flirting on the edge, looking for gimmicks—I have no tolerance for people who operate that way. Certainly sound nutrition and things like that are valid, but to put all your time and energy into looking for ways to artificially boost blood or in some way get an edge—I call that stupid coaching. Put your attention into areas where you know you'll get results rather than chasing voodoo science. Sure, it takes longer. It's as simple as this—do the basics really, really well. Then, as an athlete advances, build complexity into their program, more training and more specific to the athlete and his event. It takes time, there are no shortcuts. To build an elite athlete is both simple and complex because it's got to be very individual. Things like nutritional drinks are useful supplements, but that's different from trying to find fringe methods. If I can go buy it in the store, that's not a problem to me. If I can't, that's a problem

    Or Kara Goucher who was chief whistleblower to USADA in the NOP investigation. Kara spent 7 years with NOP(World Championship silver medallist 10000m 2007), In those 7 years, Kara only seen one bottle of cytomel(thyroid drug which was legal but is definitely morally questionable). I don't like NOP or what they are doing and questions should be asked but I know they are no Russias or Dibabas. They still deserve everything that comes to them if they are doping and possibly they could be.


    That's that out of the way and onto the real point of my post that you are passively referencing. NOP are not the major problem, the whole system is corrupt and complicit. I made a post on Letsrun about this months ago that some might remember as it got some traction(mostly criticism of me:D, it's under the nick NOPOGEN if anyone wants to check it out). NOP are not alone in this Dr. Brown Fiasco, as I said; The USATF and US Olympic committee are involved and were referring athletes to Dr. Brown for Thyroid treatment; The USATF had him hired as a shadow lecturer and have since admitted that. There's an old detective saying "follow the money" and the money leads to Nike, Nike bought the USATF in 2014, owns and funds all the major training groups and even controls athletes with different brand sponsors through ownership of the USATF. Theres a great article out there if anyone wants to read it "Did Nike just buy running".

    The USATF and USOC was sending athletes to Dr. Brown, Terrence Mahon, Salazar, Jerry Schumacher and Mark Wetmore too and these are just who we know thanks to the USADA report. Wetmore actually introduced the Gouchers to Dr. Brown who in turn introduced him to Salazar. The issue is then at the start of NOP(then known as OTC). Salazar and co-coach Schumacher were going to Dr. Brown with their athletes for Thyroid meds and vitamin infussions. Schumacher is now head coach of BTC with the likes of Emma Coburn, Evan Jager and Shelby Houlihan who are all very vocal anti-doping but there's a clear issue with this. Jerry Schumacher is noticeably absent from the USADA report despite being joint head coach with Salazr during visits to Dr. Brown. That can only mean one thing: he refused to talk to them. At worst; he was involved and is tightlipped on anything that happened at NOP or at best; omerta is alive and well in NikeTown and Jerry can't talk because Nike funds his group and has the USATF by the balls.

    Half the US team was seeing Dr. Brown and have got away scot free while everyone is hinging on NOP, Nike runs the show. The athletes are pawns, the coaches are bishops, The USATF and USOC are rooks and Nike is the queen. Cutting Salazar's head off doesn't solve anything, another head will grow back under Nike funding like it always has like NOP replacing drug riddled athletics west( good letsrun thread on that "you can run but you can't hide Malmo"). On the thread I posted on Letsrun, Rojo said he'd interview all the people I mentioned on this thread from Wetmore to Schumacher to USATF as they all flew under the radar of the NOP train but he hasn't asked them yet and I've emailed him many times about it too but as he said, his belief is Schumacher, USATF, Mahon and Wetmore et all weren't at anything nefarious despite their links and absolutely no one asking them the questions or investigating.

    My problem isn't with NOP getting scrutinised, I just want consistency across the board raised on factual information from people who know, not believe. I think all their houses should be ransacked because either a lot of people are complicit and reinforcing omerta or the US has had a semi-systematic doping program in place abusing TUE's in my opinion.

    I wasn't attacking you and I hope you understand my frustration is based on a huge elephant in the room that hasn't been addressed and no one is listening to despite all the factual evidence for suspicion. It's something I've been pushing to people who have the clout to make a difference and been getting stonewalled for months and actually trying to make a difference despite my insignificance.

    So apoligies if I offended you, adios!!


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  • #97
    OOnegative
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭OOnegative


    Fusitivity wrote: »
    I had actually left but your passive aggressive remark caught my attention, but I promise This will be my last post on here you will be happy to know. I just want to clear the air and give you a more descriptive explanation for my tone. Firstly, I wasn't trying to rip you apart in that post, I have an extreme passion for this sport and as I write posts like that: my annoyance gets the better of me; It's not directed at you; it's my annoyance at the problems within the sport that comes out. you also severly misunderstood my post

    Secondly, I merely pointed a factual flaw in the mile time argument used against Hassan in that Mile race.

    First off on NOP, I said I had more faith in NOP than most groups because of all the first hand evidence out there, This does not mean I know they are squeaky clean(there are shades of grey in the World). It means that when I look around and see the Dibaba's who were in the hotel in Saddabel when Spanish police raided their rooms and found pharmacueticul quantities of EPO and Syringes and when Kenya only has OOC testing since 2017 and the likes of Ethiophia has none, that Star sprinters in Jamacia were going up to 6 months without being tested, when whole countries have systematic doping programs in place, I have more far more faith in NOP than most groups. I would bet my life on NOP not using EPO because of what I read first hand. i.e They were using food supplement L-carnitine to boost blood. At the very least, NOP were ethically corrupt and maybe anti-doping too but the are definitely operating in the grey zone. Have you read the USADA investigation into NOP? because if you haven't and I mean no offense by this, you have no insider first hand info to base your opinions on other than belief and a performance. that is not evidence, when a cop has a case; they don't refuse to read the crime reports and hear witness or informant testimony and put everything on a hunch of bulletpoints from any old source.

    Take this quote from Vern Gambetta(Former S&C coach of NOP)



    Or Kara Goucher who was chief whistleblower to USADA in the NOP investigation. Kara spent 7 years with NOP(World Championship silver medallist 10000m 2007), In those 7 years, Kara only seen one bottle of cytomel(thyroid drug which was legal but is definitely morally questionable). I don't like NOP or what they are doing and questions should be asked but I know they are no Russias or Dibabas. They still deserve everything that comes to them if they are doping and possibly they could be.


    That's that out of the way and onto the real point of my post that you are passively referencing. NOP are not the major problem, the whole system is corrupt and complicit. I made a post on Letsrun about this months ago that some might remember as it got some traction(mostly criticism of me:D, it's under the nick NOPOGEN if anyone wants to check it out). NOP are not alone in this Dr. Brown Fiasco, as I said; The USATF and US Olympic committee are involved and were referring athletes to Dr. Brown for Thyroid treatment; The USATF had him hired as a shadow lecturer and have since admitted that. There's an old detective saying "follow the money" and the money leads to Nike, Nike bought the USATF in 2014, owns and funds all the major training groups and even controls athletes with different brand sponsors through ownership of the USATF. Theres a great article out there if anyone wants to read it "Did Nike just buy running".

    The USATF and USOC was sending athletes to Dr. Brown, Terrence Mahon, Salazar, Jerry Schumacher and Mark Wetmore too and these are just who we know thanks to the USADA report. Wetmore actually introduced the Gouchers to Dr. Brown who in turn introduced him to Salazar. The issue is then at the start of NOP(then known as OTC). Salazar and co-coach Schumacher were going to Dr. Brown with their athletes for Thyroid meds and vitamin infussions. Schumacher is now head coach of BTC with the likes of Emma Coburn, Evan Jager and Shelby Houlihan who are all very vocal anti-doping but there's a clear issue with this. Jerry Schumacher is noticeably absent from the USADA report despite being joint head coach with Salazr during visits to Dr. Brown. That can only mean one thing: he refused to talk to them. At worst; he was involved and is tightlipped on anything that happened at NOP or at best; omerta is alive and well in NikeTown and Jerry can't talk because Nike funds his group and has the USATF by the balls.

    Half the US team was seeing Dr. Brown and have got away scot free while everyone is hinging on NOP, Nike runs the show. The athletes are pawns, the coaches are bishops, The USATF and USOC are rooks and Nike is the queen. Cutting Salazar's head off doesn't solve anything, another head will grow back under Nike funding like it always has like NOP replacing drug riddled athletics west( good letsrun thread on that "you can run but you can't hide Malmo"). On the thread I posted on Letsrun, Rojo said he'd interview all the people I mentioned on this thread from Wetmore to Schumacher to USATF as they all flew under the radar of the NOP train but he hasn't asked them yet and I've emailed him many times about it too but as he said, his belief is Schumacher, USATF, Mahon and Wetmore et all weren't at anything nefarious despite their links and absolutely no one asking them the questions or investigating.

    My problem isn't with NOP getting scrutinised, I just want consistency across the board raised on factual information from people who know, not believe. I think all their houses should be ransacked because either a lot of people are complicit and reinforcing omerta or the US has had a semi-systematic doping program in place abusing TUE's in my opinion.

    I wasn't attacking you and I hope you understand my frustration is based on a huge elephant in the room that hasn't been addressed and no one is listening to despite all the factual evidence for suspicion. It's something I've been pushing to people who have the clout to make a difference and been getting stonewalled for months and actually trying to make a difference despite my insignificance.

    So apoligies if I offended you, adios!!

    Didn’t offend me in the slightest, you know me better than that. Granted I have zero facts to say NOP are operating illegally it’s just a feeling I have about them, call it an old cop hunch if you will. I wasn’t having a pop at you either, merely enticing you into a reply which are always will informed and very interesting to read. Take care E.


  • #98
    Chivito550
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    Hassan's progression is not suspect.

    Whether NOP are doping or not, I don't know. Whether they are operating in grey areas or not, I don't know.

    But it annoys me the way people seem to think Hassan is making ridiculous improvements. She was one of the world's absolute best over the course of a few years. She ran 3:56.0 trying to chase Dibaba and dying badly in last 400. She had awful race tactics too and would needlessly hang at the back and miss decisive mid race breaks.

    Personally I'm disappointed she joined NOP because I've always really liked her as an athlete and KNEW once she joined them, doping accusations would start flying around, even if she's doing everything 100% clean there. You can't blame people I guess given Farah's ridiculous improvements. Hassan was on a far higher level joining though. Also I don't believe Kara Goucher juiced and she was in that group for years.

    I guess just keep an open mind both ways. Hassan does have a very believable progression.

    Doesn't make her clean.

    But being in NOP doesn't make her dirty either.


  • #99
    yerwanthere123
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭yerwanthere123


    Thread for Doha.


  • #100
    OOnegative
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭OOnegative


    OOnegative wrote: »
    Didn’t offend me in the slightest, you know me better than that. Granted I have zero facts to say NOP are operating illegally it’s just a feeling I have about them, call it an old cop hunch if you will. I wasn’t having a pop at you either, merely enticing you into a reply which are always will informed and very interesting to read. Take care E.

    https://www.runnersworld.com/news/amp29312870/alberto-salazar-doping-ban/

    Not to say i’m happy I was someway correct but that old cop hunch proved correct.


  • #101
    yerwanthere123
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭yerwanthere123


    So here's some changes to the Diamond League that literally nobody asked for. 200m, Steeple Chase, TJ, Discus and Hammer have all been cut but will still be ran at a select few events, though not at the finals. 5,000m has also been cut and the live broadcast cut from 2 hours to 90 minutes.


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